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Post by themeddlingmonk on Jun 13, 2019 21:50:52 GMT
Where do you guys place the Sixth Doctor's appearance in Piece of Mind? It’s pretty arbitrary, obviously he’s on his own, so it’s any time he doesn’t have a companion. Most like Post Trial because he’s the usual BF Six but I really didn’t pick up on any continuity references at all. So I’d say plop it and the end of wherever you put all your other solo Sixie stories.
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Post by xlozdob on Jun 13, 2019 23:12:29 GMT
Where do you guys place the Sixth Doctor's appearance in Piece of Mind? It’s pretty arbitrary, obviously he’s on his own, so it’s any time he doesn’t have a companion. Most like Post Trial because he’s the usual BF Six but I really didn’t pick up on any continuity references at all. So I’d say plop it and the end of wherever you put all your other solo Sixie stories. That's what I was thinking, but I thought maybe someone had caught something I hadn't. Just before the Marian Conspiracy could be quite neat; he goes into the coma at the end of this and arguably starts a new life with Evelyn in the next one.
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Post by Whovitt on Jul 20, 2019 9:30:54 GMT
In the Behind the Scenes for The Legacy of Time, it was revealed the Six/Charley story was originally intended to feature Jago and Litefoot. As that was their original intention, it would suggest that Big Finish consider the Six/Jago and Litefoot stories to take place before the Charley ones. I imagine it would be as simple as swapping those two sections in the timeline
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Post by sherlock on Jul 20, 2019 9:59:17 GMT
The Avenues of Possibility itself is between the first Charley trilogy and Return of the Krotons, Charley says it’s been a few weeks since she met Menzies in The Condemned.
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Sept 2, 2019 21:39:56 GMT
The Six and Mel timeline needs a bit of an overhaul. Here’s some of my findings:
Business Unusual Obviously this comes first as it’s Mel's intro story. It establishes that Mel comes from the year 1989 and is 25 years old. She stows away aboard the TARDIS at the end.
Fegovy Mel has been with the Doctor for a few months now and encounters the Chelonians for the first time.
Dr Cadabra The Doctor and Mel are trying to get to New Years 1999 so this is presumably immediately before Millennials Rites.
Millennial Rites Mel has been travelling with the Doctor for a couple of years by this point, but they haven’t encountered the Vervoids yet.
Terror of the Vervoids The Doctor and Mel encounter the Vervoids. According to the novelisation, she’s 22 years old and has been travelling with the Doctor for three months.
The Ultimate Foe During a trip to Oxyveguramosa, Mel is pulled out of time to take part in the Doctor's Trial.
The Wrong Doctors After the Trial, the younger Doctor is dropping Mel off. However he takes her to Pease Pottage rather than Oxyveguramosa as she insisted. By the end of the story they decide to try and get her back to her Doctor again.
The Ultimate Foe: Epilogue In the novelisation of The Ultimate Foe, the epilogue depicts Mel's return to her Doctor on Oxyveguramosa.
The Quantum Archangel Millennial Rites happened recently and was Mel's last visit to Earth. She’s been with the Doctor for years now, and mentions meeting the Daleks, setting this after The Juggernauts. The Doctor fails to save a planet called Maradnias and a furious Mel decided to leave him once and for all after bottling up her anger towards him for his actions for months.
Instruments of Darkness Mel suddenly thinks that she’s been travelling with the Doctor for about a year, and is confused about the passage of time in the TARDIS, despite claiming for sure on two previous occasions that she had been with him for a few years. Her encounters with the Daleks, Chronovores and Chelonians are referenced, setting this after Fegovy, The Juggernauts and The Quantum Archangel. She’s also cut her hair much shorter than it was when she joined the Doctor and decides to grow it back out again. Oh yeah and she’s back to being from 1989! Mel doesn’t really know much about Evelyn but has at least heard her name mentioned before, this is definitely the first time they meet each other though. Doesn’t really fit at all with Thicker Than Water, where Mel has already heard a lot about Evelyn and has never met her, unless you assume that Mel gets amnesia at some stage and forgets one of the stories while Evelyn pretends not to have met Mel before in Thicker Than Water to preserve the Web of Time or something.
Curtain Call Mel doesn’t appear, but she and the Doctor have just had a bad experience on the planet Caliban. The Doctor is by himself and reluctant introduce a potential companion to Mel as he thinks it’s not the best time.
Spiral Scratch According to Mel, they’ve just been to Caliban and she hopes the next place they visit isn’t as bad as it was. The Doctor seems a bit detached from the experience, even asking Mel what was wrong with Caliban before soon remembering the bad experience as though longer had passed since the adventure for the Doctor than for Mel. Mel has suddenly now been with the Doctor for months and she doesn’t appear to recognise Evelyn.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2019 22:15:47 GMT
The Six and Mel timeline needs a bit of an overhaul. Here’s some of my findings: [...] Could it be bracketed this way? Millennial Rites ends up as a nice little counterpart to Thicker Than Water. After seeing an old friend of his, he takes her to see old friends of hers. That little encounter with his past might have also started up his concerns about the Vervoids and the Valeyard again. Instruments is a bit harder to reconcile, but maybe it's a side effect of The Quantum Archangel? When the Lux Aeterna changes history that final time, Mel's unique position as a time traveller means that her mind is trying to sort out the muddle of differing timelines. And Spiral Scratch's inconsistencies could easily be the result of the Doctor's fudging of the new Scratch timeline to save Mel in Time's Champion. For no other reason than he was in a hurry and using newfound abilities he wasn't overly familiar with.
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Sept 2, 2019 22:42:05 GMT
The Six and Mel timeline needs a bit of an overhaul. Here’s some of my findings: [...] Could it be bracketed this way? Millennial Rites ends up as a nice little counterpart to Thicker Than Water. After seeing an old friend of his, he takes her to see old friends of hers. That little encounter with his past might have also started up his concerns about the Vervoids and the Valeyard again. Instruments is a bit harder to reconcile, but maybe it's a side effect of The Quantum Archangel? When the Lux Aeterna changes history that final time, Mel's unique position as a time traveller means that her mind is trying to sort out the muddle of differing timelines. And Spiral Scratch's inconsistencies could easily be the result of the Doctor's fudging of the new Scratch timeline to save Mel in Time's Champion. For no other reason than he was in a hurry and using newfound abilities he wasn't overly familiar with. It definitely makes sense bracketed that way, although I feel like I’d personally want to put all the audios prior to Millennial Rites in order to make it feel like Mel actually has been with the Doctor for years. Mel mentions in Millennial Rites that the Doctor consistently brings up the Vervoids every few weeks and seems to keep forgetting that they haven’t met them yet. Are there any references in the audios that say whether they’re pre or post Vervoids? I don’t recall any in the ones I’ve heard, although I know there is one in Seeds of War where the Doctor suggests avoiding the work of Dr Lasky but I don’t know the context of what he says and seeing as he’s already watched the entire story play out in Trial, it could easily be him trying to stay away from the events of Vervoids as it is him saying that he’s experienced it and it’s bad, if that makes sense.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2019 0:03:40 GMT
Could it be bracketed this way? Millennial Rites ends up as a nice little counterpart to Thicker Than Water. After seeing an old friend of his, he takes her to see old friends of hers. That little encounter with his past might have also started up his concerns about the Vervoids and the Valeyard again. Instruments is a bit harder to reconcile, but maybe it's a side effect of The Quantum Archangel? When the Lux Aeterna changes history that final time, Mel's unique position as a time traveller means that her mind is trying to sort out the muddle of differing timelines. And Spiral Scratch's inconsistencies could easily be the result of the Doctor's fudging of the new Scratch timeline to save Mel in Time's Champion. For no other reason than he was in a hurry and using newfound abilities he wasn't overly familiar with. It definitely makes sense bracketed that way, although I feel like I’d personally want to put all the audios prior to Millennial Rites in order to make it feel like Mel actually has been with the Doctor for years. Mel mentions in Millennial Rites that the Doctor consistently brings up the Vervoids every few weeks and seems to keep forgetting that they haven’t met them yet. Are there any references in the audios that say whether they’re pre or post Vervoids? I don’t recall any in the ones I’ve heard, although I know there is one in Seeds of War where the Doctor suggests avoiding the work of Dr Lasky but I don’t know the context of what he says and seeing as he’s already watched the entire story play out in Trial, it could easily be him trying to stay away from the events of Vervoids as it is him saying that he’s experienced it and it’s bad, if that makes sense. Yep, it does. It's an emotional trigger. Like a knee-jerk reaction almost, right? I can't remember any audios with Mel directly addressing Trial either (outside of The Brink of Death). The Seeds of War is likely the first one. It could just as easily work pre- Vervoids as post. Really the only thing that's swayed me to post- Vervoids is Mel's different reactions to a fearful Sixie. For the Trial, she's never seen him so cautious as he was on the Hyperion, but doesn't comment on it in The Wishing Beast. The Vanity Box is followed by Spaceport Fear, Fear's followed by War, etc. There's nothing concrete linking Seeds as far as I'm aware, except that the Doctor's reaction to the Eminence feels like Mel's used to soothing his fears by now. It's unusual, but not necessarily new.
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Sept 3, 2019 10:30:27 GMT
It definitely makes sense bracketed that way, although I feel like I’d personally want to put all the audios prior to Millennial Rites in order to make it feel like Mel actually has been with the Doctor for years. Mel mentions in Millennial Rites that the Doctor consistently brings up the Vervoids every few weeks and seems to keep forgetting that they haven’t met them yet. Are there any references in the audios that say whether they’re pre or post Vervoids? I don’t recall any in the ones I’ve heard, although I know there is one in Seeds of War where the Doctor suggests avoiding the work of Dr Lasky but I don’t know the context of what he says and seeing as he’s already watched the entire story play out in Trial, it could easily be him trying to stay away from the events of Vervoids as it is him saying that he’s experienced it and it’s bad, if that makes sense. Yep, it does. It's an emotional trigger. Like a knee-jerk reaction almost, right? I can't remember any audios with Mel directly addressing Trial either (outside of The Brink of Death). The Seeds of War is likely the first one. It could just as easily work pre- Vervoids as post. Really the only thing that's swayed me to post- Vervoids is Mel's different reactions to a fearful Sixie. For the Trial, she's never seen him so cautious as he was on the Hyperion, but doesn't comment on it in The Wishing Beast. The Vanity Box is followed by Spaceport Fear, Fear's followed by War, etc. There's nothing concrete linking Seeds as far as I'm aware, except that the Doctor's reaction to the Eminence feels like Mel's used to soothing his fears by now. It's unusual, but not necessarily new. See, if we were just talking TV and Audios, I’d straight away go with the novelisations idea that Mel had only been with the Doctor for three months An she put all the Audios between Terror of the Vervoids/The Ultimate Foe and Time and the Rani. But then the novels give us this idea that she’s actually been with the Doctor for years by Vervoids, which doesn’t really make any sense, like how could she have been with him for years but have never seen him so cautious before. Another thing is, in Instruments of Darkness the exercise bike has been covered in an old dusty tarp and The Doctor and Mel speak about how he was supposed to be getting fit but he gave up on her exercise regime and diet, so perhaps any story involving Mel trying to get the Doctor to exercise should come before it, unless we assume that they try again.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2019 12:12:31 GMT
Yep, it does. It's an emotional trigger. Like a knee-jerk reaction almost, right? I can't remember any audios with Mel directly addressing Trial either (outside of The Brink of Death). The Seeds of War is likely the first one. It could just as easily work pre- Vervoids as post. Really the only thing that's swayed me to post- Vervoids is Mel's different reactions to a fearful Sixie. For the Trial, she's never seen him so cautious as he was on the Hyperion, but doesn't comment on it in The Wishing Beast. The Vanity Box is followed by Spaceport Fear, Fear's followed by War, etc. There's nothing concrete linking Seeds as far as I'm aware, except that the Doctor's reaction to the Eminence feels like Mel's used to soothing his fears by now. It's unusual, but not necessarily new. See, if we were just talking TV and Audios, I’d straight away go with the novelisations idea that Mel had only been with the Doctor for three months An she put all the Audios between Terror of the Vervoids/The Ultimate Foe and Time and the Rani. But then the novels give us this idea that she’s actually been with the Doctor for years by Vervoids, which doesn’t really make any sense, like how could she have been with him for years but have never seen him so cautious before. Another thing is, in Instruments of Darkness the exercise bike has been covered in an old dusty tarp and The Doctor and Mel speak about how he was supposed to be getting fit but he gave up on her exercise regime and diet, so perhaps any story involving Mel trying to get the Doctor to exercise should come before it, unless we assume that they try again. Hmm, good point... Cautious might be the wrong word for it. Superstitious? Superstition is definitely not a trait we'd typically associate with the Doctor. Any Doctor, really. That could be what Mel's referring to there. I reckon the bike would probably be an on-and-off thing. There are probably bits and pieces of gym equipment all around the TARDIS that get used for a few weeks, drop away, then get picked up again when the mood strikes. It's a persistent non-activity that Mel tries to coax the Doctor into becoming routine. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Sept 3, 2019 14:29:53 GMT
And Spiral Scratch's inconsistencies could easily be the result of the Doctor's fudging of the new Scratch timeline to save Mel in Time's Champion. For no other reason than he was in a hurry and using newfound abilities he wasn't overly familiar with. With Spiral Scratch, I’m almost tempted to say that it actually takes place in a parallel universe to the timeline we’re following and our Sixth Doctor is actually one of the surviving alternate Doctors that turns up to help. Obviously Gary Russell’s intention was pretty much this, with the Novels (Mel),Audios (Evelyn) and Comics (Frobisher) all existing in separate universes. This doesn’t sit well with me, and is actually contradicted by lots of other stuff. But then at the same time I can’t help but feel like Spiral Scratch is one of the few times saying it was an alternate timeline is actually an appropriate and sensical solution. I keep umming and aahhing about Time's Champion because it ended up being a charity publication, and I feel like there’s got to be a limit on what you count otherwise you may as well count fanfiction. Time's Champion is a difficult one though, because it’s essentially a Lost Story, it is a sequel to two other novels and it undoes itself by the end anyway.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2019 23:46:41 GMT
And Spiral Scratch's inconsistencies could easily be the result of the Doctor's fudging of the new Scratch timeline to save Mel in Time's Champion. For no other reason than he was in a hurry and using newfound abilities he wasn't overly familiar with. With Spiral Scratch, I’m almost tempted to say that it actually takes place in a parallel universe to the timeline we’re following and our Sixth Doctor is actually one of the surviving alternate Doctors that turns up to help. Obviously Gary Russell’s intention was pretty much this, with the Novels (Mel),Audios (Evelyn) and Comics (Frobisher) all existing in separate universes. This doesn’t sit well with me, and is actually contradicted by lots of other stuff. But then at the same time I can’t help but feel like Spiral Scratch is one of the few times saying it was an alternate timeline is actually an appropriate and sensical solution. I keep umming and aahhing about Time's Champion because it ended up being a charity publication, and I feel like there’s got to be a limit on what you count otherwise you may as well count fanfiction. Time's Champion is a difficult one though, because it’s essentially a Lost Story, it is a sequel to two other novels and it undoes itself by the end anyway. I like that. It fits rather well with the Sixth Doctor's behaviour at the beginning and end of Scratch. It's definitely a tricky balance. I've got a few fanon stories that I consider canon on my own timeline mock-up, but I think Time's Champion can juuuust get away with it because of Campaign and Equilibrium. Manuscripts from professional authors who have published often enough that these feel "official enough". I tend to treat it as the 34th Missing Adventure. I've a theory about the parallel universe idea. Just in general, mind. I reckon that every universe has a different set of stories guaranteed to it. For us, it's anything from television. Whatever else happens, everything from An Unearthly Child to Resolution and onwards are our definitive hitching posts for the timeline. That's our line in the sand. But in other timelines, it's the novels or the comics that take precedence. Everyone gets a bit of everything, but what stays and goes varies on the medium. If that's logical?
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Sept 19, 2019 11:54:46 GMT
{Harry Houdini’s War} So as it turns out, this is actually a Solo Sixth Doctor Story rather than a Six/Peri Story. I did think something was up with Peri's characterisation, but I just assumed she was in on the Doctor's plan and that’s why she was acting out of character. Turns out she wasn’t in this story and all and who we thought was Peri, was actually an alien that has taken her form. The Doctor mentions that he keeps finding himself saying goodbye to Peri, so it’s presumably after Her Final Flight and Peri and the Piscon Paradox. Personally I’d put it after The Rani Elite, as a sort of coda to that era before we move on to Constance, but it could just as easily go between Trial and Evelyn. It has to be just after he’s travelled with Peri as the Alien mentions that they took Peri's form from his recent memories, so presumably if this story took place in a different gap they would have taken the form of Evelyn or Mila.
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Sept 19, 2019 11:55:46 GMT
{Harry Houdini’s War} So as it turns out, this is actually a Solo Sixth Doctor Story rather than a Six/Peri Story. I did think something was up with Peri's characterisation, but I just assumed she was in on the Doctor's plan and that’s why she was acting out of character. Turns out she wasn’t in this story and all and who we thought was Peri, was actually an alien that has taken her form. The Doctor mentions that he keeps finding himself saying goodbye to Peri, so it’s presumably after Her Final Flight and Peri and the Piscon Paradox. Personally I’d put it after The Rani Elite, as a sort of coda to that era before we move on to Constance, but it could just as easily go between Trial and Evelyn. It has to be just after he’s travelled with Peri as the Alien mentions that they took Peri's form from his recent memories, so presumably if this story took place in a different gap they would have taken the form of Evelyn or Mila.
Warning, this spoils the twist of Harry Houdini's War, so they’re pretty heavy spoilers rather than the usual light characterisation notes and continuity references that I’d usually post here, so if you’d rather hear the story without being spoiled, don’t read this.
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Oct 24, 2019 11:51:16 GMT
The Sixth Doctor story from the new Target Storybook is Called Interstitial Insecurity.
It’s set between Mindwarp and Terror of the Vervoids with the Doctor being taken to decide which future event he wants to use as evidence in the Trial. He mentions Charlotte Pollard and also sees the events of The Marian Conspiracy and Evelyn Smythe in his future.
I think I’m gonna ignore the implication that he’s already travelled with Charley by Trial as it doesn’t really make sense, Charley is supposed to come after Evelyn otherwise the whole timey wimey thing with Patricia Menzies doesn’t make sense. Plus he’s not even supposed to remember Charley.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2019 7:51:40 GMT
The Sixth Doctor story from the new Target Storybook is Called Interstitial Insecurity. It’s set between Mindwarp and Terror of the Vervoids with the Doctor being taken to decide which future event he wants to use as evidence in the Trial. He mentions Charlotte Pollard and also sees the events of The Marian Conspiracy and Evelyn Smythe in his future. I think I’m gonna ignore the implication that he’s already travelled with Charley by Trial as it doesn’t really make sense, Charley is supposed to come after Evelyn otherwise the whole timey wimey thing with Patricia Menzies doesn’t make sense. Plus he’s not even supposed to remember Charley. It's a jolly fun story. A few interesting things here, worldbuilding-wise. Firstly, that being assigned to the Matrix seems to be analogous to the old adage of being "assigned to Antactica". Somewhere inconvenient persons can be placed out of the public eye. Secondly, despite the Doctor's assertion that long ago he grew aware of his own people's "arrogance and self-serving nature", he doesn't consider them capable of the Space Station Camera massacre in The Two Doctors. Vain, perhaps. Savage, no. I wonder if Trial was what ultimately sealed his damning opinion of them?
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Post by themeddlingmonk on May 21, 2022 17:26:31 GMT
{Water Worlds } Mel is familiar with the Daleks, so it’s after The Juggernauts where she meets them for the first time.
And Hebe is revealed to be a former student of Evelyn Smythe, which is a nice little callback. This is presumably also after Thicker Than Water otherwise it would see quite bizarre that Hebe was never mentioned in that story.
The Dream Nexus probably goes between The Tides of the Moon and Maelstrom, purely because The Tides of the Moon is Hebe’s first trip and Maelstrom ends on a cliffhanger leading into the next set.
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Jun 8, 2022 12:13:55 GMT
{Out of Time 3: Wink} The Doctor is characterised as a bit more abrasive than usual in BF, much more in line with his TV characterisation. I thought this was an odd choice at first but it all made sense by the end. The Tenth Doctor advises him to try and have some fun and maybe consider wearing blue in the future. So this is the Sixth Doctor between the events of his Trial and when he eventually meets Evelyn in The Marian Conspiracy.
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Post by sherlock on Jan 2, 2024 11:28:07 GMT
The Hoxteth Time Capsule is sometime during his travels with Evelyn. Probably towards the end as they seem to be on relatively rocky terms.
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Mar 23, 2024 12:02:39 GMT
Excuse me while I scream into the void after the revelations in The Quin Dilemma
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