|
Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Aug 3, 2019 11:23:55 GMT
I'm not sure this observation fits on this thread, but I'll see how it goes.
The 12 Doctor is a favourite of mine. Peter Capaldi could inject so much depth into one single line of dialogue, he will always be one of the most underrated incarnations in my view.
However, his 'be kind' schtick always rankles with me. Whilst telling people to 'be kind' is a noble sentiment, The 12th Doctor was one of the most superficially unkind incarnations of the lot. Only the episode before, he addressed someone he didn't know as "You there. You, with the awful hair." Now that's not very kind, is it!
If the Fifth Doctor had told me to be kind, for example, I'd have taken it. With the 12th, I'd have been given to reply, "Practice what you preach, mate!"
I’d argue there was a difference between kindness and niceness. The Doctor’s weakness is, as Davros says and attempts to exploit, is their sense of kindness and empathy. They always care. Various Doctor showed it more openly, or with less filter or were like the Doctor Of War trying to hide their kindness beneath the vineer Of “I am a monster”. By the time of the twelfth Doctor he has been hurt time and again by his kindness and couldn’t stop being kind. So instead he built a wall between him and others in an attempt to not have it hurt so much when he lost something he cared about or was called upon to again be kind.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2019 1:20:07 GMT
I'm not sure this observation fits on this thread, but I'll see how it goes.
The 12 Doctor is a favourite of mine. Peter Capaldi could inject so much depth into one single line of dialogue, he will always be one of the most underrated incarnations in my view.
However, his 'be kind' schtick always rankles with me. Whilst telling people to 'be kind' is a noble sentiment, The 12th Doctor was one of the most superficially unkind incarnations of the lot. Only the episode before, he addressed someone he didn't know as "You there. You, with the awful hair." Now that's not very kind, is it!
If the Fifth Doctor had told me to be kind, for example, I'd have taken it. With the 12th, I'd have been given to reply, "Practice what you preach, mate!"
I’d argue there was a difference between kindness and niceness. The Doctor’s weakness is, as Davros says and attempts to exploit, is their sense of kindness and empathy. They always care. Various Doctor showed it more openly, or with less filter or were like the Doctor Of War trying to hide their kindness beneath the vineer Of “I am a monster”. By the time of the twelfth Doctor he has been hurt time and again by his kindness and couldn’t stop being kind. So instead he built a wall between him and others in an attempt to not have it hurt so much when he lost something he cared about or was called upon to again be kind. Yeah, the Twelfth Doctor is actually a really good segue into exploring how different Doctors express their instinctive compassion. One of my favourite moments for the Eleventh Doctor comes in The History of the Doctor, at the end when he and Clara are finished reading his 1200-Year diary. When Clara notes that he's saved billions of lives, his only response is something along the lines of: "Wouldn't anyone have done the same?" and that's a sentiment you can find way back in The Sensorites. You're frightened, in danger, how can we help? Carried all the way through their incarnations, but manifesting in a multitude of differing ways. The Twelfth Doctor acts like the rebel fighter who's seen too much. "No names, not in this line of work." He's the first incarnation with an inherent anger within him from the word "go". A genuine rage. At what we're not really sure, but I'd almost say that it's frustration at his own good nature. A man who's so old, so tired of pain, that he doesn't want to care anymore. Yet he does, because that's who he is. So, he dresses all that wisdom and kindness up behind a vest of jagged glass. He pushes people away, but never completely betrays that initial instinct that makes him the Doctor -- the one to be kind. I think it's those two conflicting elements which carry him through his character arc. A conscious desire to distance himself and an instinctive desire to care about what happens to others.
|
|
|
Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Aug 4, 2019 1:32:21 GMT
As Clara says, when the Doctor vows bloody vengeance upon whoever killed her that his rampage would stop the moment the first baby cries. He cannot help helping. Even when he knows he should go, like in the Girl Who Died. The situation was hopeless. He was ready to go and then a baby cries out and he cannot help himself from translating what it’s saying and staying to help because someone helpless needs him to.
This is why I like to think that the thirteenth Doctor is the perfect inheritor of the twelfth Doctor’s struggles, she’s accepted she cannot help helping so does so with gusto and an almost infectious compassion towards everyone and everything (sans a Dalek, and even then she offers to help it leave Earth). People Mitch and Boan about how age’s ineffectual and all talk and no action, but she lives and let’s live and cares for the people and animals she meets. People complain when she shares in the prayer in the Tauaranglangabagaboomboom Conundrum, but that’s ENTIRELY the point of her character, age’s being empathic and compassionate. People complain she let whatshisface Not-Trump Escape, well DURR she’s seen him at his worst and hopes he’s learnt a lesson. Even when her hands are bound by history itself she tries to buck the system and spread a little kindness, even knowing it’s pointless to do so.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2019 8:20:40 GMT
Yup, fulfilling her predecessors longstanding ability to talk their way out of situations where possible. She's the first incarnation since arguably the Fifth who I can't see seeking vengeance for a wrongdoing. It's not that she's incapable of brute force -- her Venusian aikido in The Ghost Monument is testament to the fact that she'd be rather good at it -- it's that she's not one to waste energy on people whose minds can't be changed. Better to focus that attention where it counts, on the people who do listen.
She's the top-drawer scientist-mechanic who can build laboratory equipment in a 1940s barn from scratch. No threats, just results.
Actually, on the subject of the Thirteenth Doctor, I've got a revised episode order for Series 11 that works rather splendidly:
|
|
|
Post by mrperson on Aug 7, 2019 3:25:25 GMT
Roland = The Doctor; across all reality.
They each willingly spend their sole to save reality. One we learned (The Doctor) redeemed the expenditure. The other (Stephen King, The Dark Tower),
{Spoiler} Finds "yes, even salvation" on his last past; finally stands true, as the Doctor did in Day of the Doctor.
|
|
|
Post by Superium on Aug 9, 2019 15:32:52 GMT
I'm still not overly fond of Torchwood even after watching Children of Earth.
|
|
|
Post by doctorkernow on Aug 14, 2019 21:04:27 GMT
Hello again.
Nowt wrong with that Superium. Torchwood veered off so much in all different directions. At times it didn't seem to know what it was. The team were a rather odd mix. Captain Jack is a fascinating leading man. I need to examine it again. Children of Earth was incredibly bleak. Not a very comfortable watch but compelling.
|
|
|
Post by J.A. Prentice on Aug 15, 2019 19:45:30 GMT
To add my own controversial opinion, Captain Jack was a bad character in Torchwood. RTD took everything fun and compelling about him from Doctor Who and turned him into a moping immortal. Jack was the wrong choice to lead the series –or the series was the wrong place to put Jack. He would have been better in something more Space Opera.
|
|
|
Post by Superium on Aug 15, 2019 23:07:13 GMT
Time Crash features my favorite portrayal of the Fifth Doctor (on television, at least).
|
|
|
Post by Superium on Aug 18, 2019 21:53:11 GMT
To add my own controversial opinion, Captain Jack was a bad character in Torchwood. RTD took everything fun and compelling about him from Doctor Who and turned him into a moping immortal. Jack was the wrong choice to lead the series –or the series was the wrong place to put Jack. He would have been better in something more Space Opera. That's a hard agree from me. Captain Jack In DW > Captain Jack In Torchwood
|
|
|
Post by Superium on Aug 18, 2019 21:56:58 GMT
Hello again. Nowt wrong with that Superium. Torchwood veered off so much in all different directions. At times it didn't seem to know what it was. The team were a rather odd mix. Captain Jack is a fascinating leading man. I need to examine it again. Children of Earth was incredibly bleak. Not a very comfortable watch but compelling. TBH, it's not the bleak tone that's the problem (trust me, I wish the main show would adopt it from time to time). It's the fact that most of the show is just a chore to sit through. S1 and Miracle Day deserve every bit of criticism they get and S2's better, but I still find it meh overall.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2019 23:43:38 GMT
To add my own controversial opinion, Captain Jack was a bad character in Torchwood. RTD took everything fun and compelling about him from Doctor Who and turned him into a moping immortal. Jack was the wrong choice to lead the series –or the series was the wrong place to put Jack. He would have been better in something more Space Opera. Yes. Agree with this. But then again. I think Torchwood in general is awful.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2019 0:11:18 GMT
I don't even know if the above qualifies - I'd say it's a pretty popular opinion that Jack was better in DW than Torchwood. Series 1 of Torchwood often felt like Jack was a completely different character from his Who debut and yet when he went back into Who...it was the Eccleston era fun Jack again even when The Master is taking over the world or The Daleks are wiping out reality. Maybe Cardiff just depresses him! Honestly Jack has never been my favourite thing about Torchwood anyway and on audio John B is a less nuanced performer than most of the cast. When he's written well and John is on form (Children Of Earth, The Victorian Age, Broken) he's a really fun or interesting character depending on whether it's bouncy Jack or broody Jack but all things being equal I look forward to most of the other casts and characters releases more.
|
|
|
Post by number13 on Aug 19, 2019 1:45:01 GMT
I don't even know if the above qualifies - I'd say it's a pretty popular opinion that Jack was better in DW than Torchwood. Series 1 of Torchwood often felt like Jack was a completely different character from his Who debut and yet when he went back into Who...it was the Eccleston era fun Jack again even when The Master is taking over the world or The Daleks are wiping out reality. Maybe Cardiff just depresses him! Honestly Jack has never been my favourite thing about Torchwood anyway and on audio John B is a less nuanced performer than most of the cast. When he's written well and John is on form (Children Of Earth, The Victorian Age, Broken) he's a really fun or interesting character depending on whether it's bouncy Jack or broody Jack but all things being equal I look forward to most of the other casts and characters releases more. I think it's the feeling of being immortal in the company of mortals that gets Jack down sometimes - a feeling and an experience the Doctor shares (more or less) with him, so he feels liberated in the TARDIS. Plus the weight of responsibility he has in TW, and it must be a bit of the 'Third Doctor in exile' to be always in Cardiff (very nice city though it is) when you've travelled as Jack has.
'The Lives of Captain Jack 2' gave us bouncy Jack, grimly determined Jack and sympathetic Jack - I liked all three of him and enjoyed the set very much. (Put Vol 1 on sale BF will you please, I missed out on that.) The Victorian Age was my intro to Jack on audio and it was a lot of fun.
Predictably, hearing John paired up with Katy Manning for 'The Green Life' was my favourite Jack story yet, Jack&Jo are just brilliant together and I loved every minute.
|
|
|
Post by Superium on Aug 19, 2019 7:25:54 GMT
I don't even know if the above qualifies - I'd say it's a pretty popular opinion that Jack was better in DW than Torchwood. Series 1 of Torchwood often felt like Jack was a completely different character from his Who debut and yet when he went back into Who...it was the Eccleston era fun Jack again even when The Master is taking over the world or The Daleks are wiping out reality. Maybe Cardiff just depresses him! Honestly Jack has never been my favourite thing about Torchwood anyway and on audio John B is a less nuanced performer than most of the cast. When he's written well and John is on form (Children Of Earth, The Victorian Age, Broken) he's a really fun or interesting character depending on whether it's bouncy Jack or broody Jack but all things being equal I look forward to most of the other casts and characters releases more. I always thought the popular opinion was that Jack was better in Torchwood than in DW. I've always heard that DW Captain Jack was, for lack of a better phrase, 'watered down'.
|
|
bobod
Chancellery Guard
Likes: 2,759
|
Post by bobod on Aug 19, 2019 8:55:16 GMT
I don't even know if the above qualifies - I'd say it's a pretty popular opinion that Jack was better in DW than Torchwood. Series 1 of Torchwood often felt like Jack was a completely different character from his Who debut and yet when he went back into Who...it was the Eccleston era fun Jack again even when The Master is taking over the world or The Daleks are wiping out reality. Maybe Cardiff just depresses him! Honestly Jack has never been my favourite thing about Torchwood anyway and on audio John B is a less nuanced performer than most of the cast. When he's written well and John is on form (Children Of Earth, The Victorian Age, Broken) he's a really fun or interesting character depending on whether it's bouncy Jack or broody Jack but all things being equal I look forward to most of the other casts and characters releases more. I always thought the popular opinion was that Jack was better in Torchwood than in DW. I've always heard that DW Captain Jack was, for lack of a better phrase, 'watered down'. Oh definitely better in Doctor Who. Jack isn't a lead. He's much better as the live-wire sidekick.
|
|
lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
Likes: 5,787
|
Post by lidar2 on Aug 19, 2019 9:15:41 GMT
Time Crash features my favorite portrayal of the Fifth Doctor (on television, at least). I think the writer of Time Crash perfectly captured the character of the 6th Dr. Unfortunately they then got the actor who had played the 5th by mistake.
|
|
|
Post by polly on Aug 19, 2019 20:36:42 GMT
I actually like Miracle Day. I think it's a really interesting premise hampered by some seriously unfortunate missteps. It's incredibly bleak, yes, but so was Children of Earth. Maybe I just thrive on vicarious misery, who knows. Let's see, what else.... I cannot stand Missy. I gave her a chance. I kept an open mind, but the evil Mary Poppins schitck and the uncomfortable interactions with Twelve are just too much for me. No thank you. I didn't like Simm, either, until The Doctor Falls. So maybe in the future there'll be some redemption. I think Martha was better with Torchwood than the Doctor. I'd have preferred if Peri was actually shot in Mindwarp instead of the later backpedaling. I like Peri, but there's something to be said for making a big impact (like Adric did hurr hurr hurr) on your way out.
|
|
|
Post by Superium on Aug 20, 2019 1:14:27 GMT
Time Crash features my favorite portrayal of the Fifth Doctor (on television, at least). I think the writer of Time Crash perfectly captured the character of the 6th Dr. Unfortunately they then got the actor who had played the 5th by mistake. That explains a lot. 6 is my second favorite doctor.
|
|
bobod
Chancellery Guard
Likes: 2,759
|
Post by bobod on Aug 21, 2019 13:45:35 GMT
Time Crash features my favorite portrayal of the Fifth Doctor (on television, at least). I think the writer of Time Crash perfectly captured the character of the 6th Dr. Unfortunately they then got the actor who had played the 5th by mistake. It's always seemed fairly in keeping with the occasions when the Fifth Doctor got irritated.
|
|