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Post by charlesuirdhein on Apr 8, 2017 19:08:51 GMT
For no reason it seems. He's not (apparently) that injured. They regenerated him because because. And they got they 4 billion year thing wrong, as a lot of people do, as well. With the transmat effectively restarting him every time what you have is a Doctor aware that 4 billion years worth of that incarnation was needed to get through the events of Hell Bent, but he doesn't remember them all and he is only actually as old as that last cycle through the Castle. So that's a plothole when the Master faces off against him. If you look at the Master before he started to regenerate, he was pretty injured. And, during Heaven Sent, the Doctor mentioned that he could remember every iteration. Clara also noted that his eyes looked significantly older during Hell Bent. Besides, he was trying to intimidate the Master. He looked no more injured than he has on other occasions, and despite what the Doctor said (the Doctor lies, Rule 1) the events as explicitly described in Hell Bent don't match up with him remembering every iteration. Logically speaking how could he given how he got through the events? He can be aware that they must have happened, and that knowledge has aged the look in his eyes but he still can't be actually older than however long one cycle in the Castle was, and it wasn't 4 billion years. And yeah, the intimidation factor works Especially when we factor in that the Master cuts corners and simply hasn't done enough research, as per usual.
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Post by icecreamdf on Apr 8, 2017 19:21:39 GMT
If you look at the Master before he started to regenerate, he was pretty injured. And, during Heaven Sent, the Doctor mentioned that he could remember every iteration. Clara also noted that his eyes looked significantly older during Hell Bent. Besides, he was trying to intimidate the Master. He looked no more injured than he has on other occasions, and despite what the Doctor said (the Doctor lies, Rule 1) the events as explicitly described in Hell Bent don't match up with him remembering every iteration. Logically speaking how could he given how he got through the events? He can be aware that they must have happened, and that knowledge has aged the look in his eyes but he still can't be actually older than however long one cycle in the Castle was, and it wasn't 4 billion years. And yeah, the intimidation factor works Especially when we factor in that the Master cuts corners and simply hasn't done enough research, as per usual. He looks pretty badly injured to me. The skin is falling off his face, and smoke is coming out of him. In Heaven Sent, the Doctor says "But I can remember Clara. You don't understand. I can remember it all. Every time." I assume that Time Lord telepathy allows the memories to transfer from one iteration of the Doctor to the next.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Apr 8, 2017 19:24:28 GMT
He looked no more injured than he has on other occasions, and despite what the Doctor said (the Doctor lies, Rule 1) the events as explicitly described in Hell Bent don't match up with him remembering every iteration. Logically speaking how could he given how he got through the events? He can be aware that they must have happened, and that knowledge has aged the look in his eyes but he still can't be actually older than however long one cycle in the Castle was, and it wasn't 4 billion years. And yeah, the intimidation factor works Especially when we factor in that the Master cuts corners and simply hasn't done enough research, as per usual. He looks pretty badly injured to me. The skin is falling off his face, and smoke is coming out of him. In Heaven Sent, the Doctor says "But I can remember Clara. You don't understand. I can remember it all. Every time." I assume that Time Lord telepathy allows the memories to transfer from one iteration of the Doctor to the next. Unless that telepathy is part of the Confession Dial's brutal treatment of him then that's impossible. In order for the next iteration to come through the transmat the previous one has to actually kill himself, and we see it happen. I've just dug out my DVD to check, yep. There is no point where there is two of him to transfer anything telepathically.
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Post by icecreamdf on Apr 8, 2017 19:38:59 GMT
He looks pretty badly injured to me. The skin is falling off his face, and smoke is coming out of him. In Heaven Sent, the Doctor says "But I can remember Clara. You don't understand. I can remember it all. Every time." I assume that Time Lord telepathy allows the memories to transfer from one iteration of the Doctor to the next. Unless that telepathy is part of the Confession Dial's brutal treatment of him then that's impossible. In order for the next iteration to come through the transmat the previous one has to actually kill himself, and we see it happen. I've just dug out my DVD to check, yep. There is no point where there is two of him to transfer anything telepathically. Well, we know that the new Doctor gets the new memories somehow. Maybe when the old Doctor burns himself up, his memories get downloaded into the T-mat, which gives them to the new Doctor.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Apr 8, 2017 19:45:29 GMT
Unless that telepathy is part of the Confession Dial's brutal treatment of him then that's impossible. In order for the next iteration to come through the transmat the previous one has to actually kill himself, and we see it happen. I've just dug out my DVD to check, yep. There is no point where there is two of him to transfer anything telepathically. Well, we know that the new Doctor gets the new memories somehow. Maybe when the old Doctor burns himself up, his memories get downloaded into the T-mat, which gives them to the new Doctor. That works, if we actually believe him. Though I'd doubt him more if it had been 11.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Apr 8, 2017 19:47:00 GMT
Well, we know that the new Doctor gets the new memories somehow. Maybe when the old Doctor burns himself up, his memories get downloaded into the T-mat, which gives them to the new Doctor. That works, if we actually believe him. Though I'd doubt him more if it had been 11. No, hang on...it doesn't. Because he'd know that he wasn't the first then when we see him arrive at the beginning of the episode. So for that to work the memories would have to be transferred en masse when he breaks free and at no other time.
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Post by icecreamdf on Apr 8, 2017 19:58:01 GMT
That works, if we actually believe him. Though I'd doubt him more if it had been 11. No, hang on...it doesn't. Because he'd know that he wasn't the first then when we see him arrive at the beginning of the episode. So for that to work the memories would have to be transferred en masse when he breaks free and at no other time. I think they were in his subconscious for a while. When he figured out what was going on, he said something along the lines of "this is the part where I always remember."
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2017 7:39:39 GMT
He looks pretty badly injured to me. The skin is falling off his face, and smoke is coming out of him. In Heaven Sent, the Doctor says "But I can remember Clara. You don't understand. I can remember it all. Every time." I assume that Time Lord telepathy allows the memories to transfer from one iteration of the Doctor to the next. Unless that telepathy is part of the Confession Dial's brutal treatment of him then that's impossible. In order for the next iteration to come through the transmat the previous one has to actually kill himself, and we see it happen. I've just dug out my DVD to check, yep. There is no point where there is two of him to transfer anything telepathically. You've stated the possible answer yourself in the above. It could be a quality of the confession dial.
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Post by Zagreus on Apr 9, 2017 17:09:16 GMT
Having read the comic in question, yeah Delgado's pretty messed up from the explosion of time energy that was previously just suffused into his body. The skin is falling off his face and other parts, he can barely stand up... I'd liken it to a more violent version of Nine's regen into Ten, induced by taking in all that vortex energy.
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Apr 13, 2017 12:36:10 GMT
So Doorway to Hell is set after Last of the Gaderene then. Cool. Shame though as i always though that the Master regenerated after the events of that novel lol
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Post by constonks on Apr 17, 2017 1:42:29 GMT
I have a theory! The Master in Legacy is actually Beevers before getting burned. He manages to survive the explosion at the end unharmed, but is stuck on Tersurus, leading him to wander into The Two Masters, and the final scene, with Goth encountering the disfigured Master, is set after Two Masters. Boom, done. That might make sense. I don't remember much about Legacy, so I can't remember how clear it was that it was supposed to be the Delgado Master. It was very clearly the Delgado Master: Although "two and a half bodies" doesn't ring true either with UNIT: Dominion. I think Legacy is just an aberrant timeline at this point - Susan's life doesn't match, the Master doesn't match... I'm willing to say someone messed with something along the way. Maybe the Monk, maybe the Master, maybe another time traveler altogether.
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Post by sailorhaumea on Apr 17, 2017 2:38:02 GMT
That might make sense. I don't remember much about Legacy, so I can't remember how clear it was that it was supposed to be the Delgado Master. It was very clearly the Delgado Master: Although "two and a half bodies" doesn't ring true either with UNIT: Dominion. I think Legacy is just an aberrant timeline at this point - Susan's life doesn't match, the Master doesn't match... I'm willing to say someone messed with something along the way. Maybe the Monk, maybe the Master, maybe another time traveler altogether. Well, one thing does match... {Spoiler}The Master kills David in Legacy of the Daleks, which fits with David being deceased in An Earthly Child.
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Post by Zagreus on Apr 17, 2017 2:54:56 GMT
That could all still be somewhat handwaved away by Beevers dressing similar to Delgado and having the trademark beard. But still, it's a massive bit of handwaving.
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Post by CookieMaster on Apr 17, 2017 6:23:32 GMT
If Big Finish were to ever adapt the novel, i'd say they would use Beevers. There is also a line in 'The Two Masters' where MacQueen was getting a little peed off by Beevers' Master, he asked something along the lines of "Whatever ever happened to all the nehru jackets and pointy beards?" to which Beevers replied "You did!". So you might be able to assume that Beevers kept the Delgado 'look' before it was taken away from him, but yeah, those hands need to wave a little.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Apr 17, 2017 6:27:07 GMT
If Big Finish were to ever adapt the novel, i'd say they would use Beevers. There is also a line in 'The Two Masters' where MacQueen was getting a little peed off by Beevers' Master, he asked something along the lines of "Whatever ever happened to all the nehru jackets and pointy beards?" to which Beevers replied "You did!". So you might be able to assume that Beevers kept the Delgado 'look' before it was taken away from him, but yeah, those hands need to wave a little. They'd be better off sitting down and working out an original story to link it all together rather than jemmy that nonsense back into continuity!
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Post by CookieMaster on Apr 17, 2017 6:36:58 GMT
If Big Finish were to ever adapt the novel, i'd say they would use Beevers. There is also a line in 'The Two Masters' where MacQueen was getting a little peed off by Beevers' Master, he asked something along the lines of "Whatever ever happened to all the nehru jackets and pointy beards?" to which Beevers replied "You did!". So you might be able to assume that Beevers kept the Delgado 'look' before it was taken away from him, but yeah, those hands need to wave a little. They'd be better off sitting down and working out an original story to link it all together rather than jemmy that nonsense back into continuity! Eh, doesn't bother me too much, I have my own explanation for Legacy anyway. It still seems to be an important piece of continuity in some corners though. I would never put money on it really being adapted though!
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Apr 17, 2017 6:38:32 GMT
They'd be better off sitting down and working out an original story to link it all together rather than jemmy that nonsense back into continuity! Eh, doesn't bother me too much, I have my own explanation for Legacy anyway. It still seems to be an important piece of continuity in some corners though. I would never put money on it really being adapted though! I agree. I mean anyone can squint hard enough and head canon it but to actually adapt it...it's not going to please anyone, whatever their opinion on it.
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Post by sherlock on Apr 17, 2017 10:40:08 GMT
That might make sense. I don't remember much about Legacy, so I can't remember how clear it was that it was supposed to be the Delgado Master. It was very clearly the Delgado Master: Although "two and a half bodies" doesn't ring true either with UNIT: Dominion. I think Legacy is just an aberrant timeline at this point - Susan's life doesn't match, the Master doesn't match... I'm willing to say someone messed with something along the way. Maybe the Monk, maybe the Master, maybe another time traveler altogether. Ah damn, well we have plenty of retcons that could wipe it from history. Faction Paradox, Council of Eight , Romana's temporal messing in Enemy Lines, the Time War...
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Post by icecreamdf on Apr 21, 2017 2:56:49 GMT
Heralds of Destruction has a reference to The Time Monster, so I would put that story in between The Time Monster and Frontier in Space.
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Mar 4, 2018 22:57:40 GMT
Having just found out about the Female Incarnation of the Master in the Harvest of Time, I think it’s quite possible that she could be a Post-Doctor Falls decayed Missy.
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