|
Post by ollychops on Jan 5, 2020 21:20:45 GMT
Not sure if anyone's seen this, but Dorney's clarified the Beevers incarnation(s) of the Master...
|
|
|
Post by fitzoliverj on Jan 5, 2020 21:48:02 GMT
Somebody tell him he's forgotten about the Rathbone incarnation. (I say 'incarnation', but in "First Frontier" he's supposed to get a full 13-body regeneration cycle, but in "Happy Endings" he's run out of lives again, so Mr D may actually have left out a full thirteen Masters. In fact, even more than that, since David A. McIntee's abortive plan for the Master's timeline was to have the Tzun create multiple clones of him. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullet_Time_(novel) So, we're potentially looking at a lot more than 13. Back to the drawing board, Dorney).
|
|
|
Post by sherlock on Jan 5, 2020 22:01:41 GMT
Somebody tell him he's forgotten about the Rathbone incarnation. (I say 'incarnation', but in "First Frontier" he's supposed to get a full 13-body regeneration cycle, but in "Happy Endings" he's run out of lives again, so Mr D may actually have left out a full thirteen Masters. In fact, even more than that, since David A. McIntee's abortive plan for the Master's timeline was to have the Tzun create multiple clones of him. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullet_Time_(novel) So, we're potentially looking at a lot more than 13. Back to the drawing board, Dorney).
Tbf I think basically everyone has forgotten about that incarnation since the 1990s (didn’t the PDA Prime Time contradict First Frontier completely). Though that said, Planet of Dust did mention the Tzun as a method the Master has used to prolong his life... Okay here’s a theory. The Tzun Nanities enabled the Master to regenerate into Rathbone incarnation, however they began breaking down. First this prevented Rathhbone from regenerating again, then his incarnation began failing and he degenerated into Tremas (cheetah virus and all). Tremas tries and fails to get another new body in Prime Time and then goes in search of the Warp Core which reduces him to Beevers again.
|
|
|
Post by constonks on Jan 5, 2020 22:10:51 GMT
Somebody tell him he's forgotten about the Rathbone incarnation. (I say 'incarnation', but in "First Frontier" he's supposed to get a full 13-body regeneration cycle, but in "Happy Endings" he's run out of lives again, so Mr D may actually have left out a full thirteen Masters. In fact, even more than that, since David A. McIntee's abortive plan for the Master's timeline was to have the Tzun create multiple clones of him. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullet_Time_(novel) So, we're potentially looking at a lot more than 13. Back to the drawing board, Dorney). Tbf I think basically everyone has forgotten about that incarnation since the 1990s (didn’t the PDA Prime Time contradict First Frontier completely). Though that said, Planet of Dust did mention the Tzun as a method the Master has used to prolong his life... Okay here’s a theory. The Tzun Nanities enabled the Master to regenerate into Rathbone incarnation, however they began breaking down. First this prevented Rathhbone from regenerating again, then his incarnation began failing and he degenerated into Tremas (cheetah virus and all). Tremas tries and fails to get another new body in Prime Time and then goes in search of the Warp Core which reduces him to Beevers again. That's what I've assumed for some time - First Frontier, Prime Time, Dust Breeding, then he finds a Gordon Tipple body lying around, then he swallows a Deathworm in The Eight Doctors, etc. etc.
|
|
|
Post by fitzoliverj on Jan 6, 2020 17:30:07 GMT
Okay here’s a theory. The Tzun Nanities enabled the Master to regenerate into Rathbone incarnation, however they began breaking down. First this prevented Rathhbone from regenerating again, then his incarnation began failing and he degenerated into Tremas (cheetah virus and all). Tremas tries and fails to get another new body in Prime Time and then goes in search of the Warp Core which reduces him to Beevers again. Sensible suggestion, but I don't think it works. As I recall, in "First Frontier" the Cheetah virus has only infected Tremas, and all the non-Gallifreyan DNA is extracted from the Master. So, after considering various possibilities, here's my suggestion: 1) Survival 2) Peter Darvil-Evans's post-Survival story written for the benefit of prospective authors & reprinted in DWM a few years back 3) Tucker/Perry 7th Doctor/Master stories 4) The Master acquires his Deathworm Morphant ("The Eight Doctors") 5) A final confrontation between the 7th Doctor and the Master, in which the former ends up believing his has killed the latter (there's a throwaway line in one of the pre-FF NAs where the Doctor says he killed the Master, and I don't think that adaquetely describes "Survival") 6) First Frontier 7) Housewarming 8) Meanwhile, back at Tzun HQ, all the extracted DNA (which the Tzun mistakenly thought was just Trakenite and Cheetah) forms itself into the Deathworm Morphant. Possibly it takes over one of the Tzun genetically altered to like human, but that's not necessary. Either it has a copy of the Master's mind, or it has Tremas's mind and he's been driven mad and believes either he is the Master or ought to be. 8) The Deathworm Morphant hangs out at the Scoundrels Club ("The Missy Chronicles") 9) The Deathworm Morphant tracks down the Rathbone Master and attempts to take him over. All the various genetic templates - Gallifreyan, worm, Trakenite, Cheetah, Tzun if we've included that - kind of start to fight each other. The Master is able to temporarily stabilise himself as Rathbone by sacrificing his second through twelfth incarnations' worth of regeneration energy and using it to secure himself. 10) Happy Endings 11) The Master, having failed to loom himself a proper body, regenerates for the last time. There are two possible options here 11a - the presence of alien DNA causes the Master to regenerate into Tremas. He later tries to regenerate for the impossible thirteenth time, and this finally sloughs off Tremas and he reverts back to crispified Time Lord. His body ends up crumbling, and the Deathworm Morphant takes over Gordon Tipple's body instead. Gordon Tipple just happens to have some striking eyes. 11b - The Master's regeneration collapses, and reverts to a previous stable form - Pratt/Beevers. Post-regeneration trauma causes him to misunderstand how he lost Tremas's body (so he's not quite accurate in "Dust Breeding"). He later regenerates into Gordon Tipple, but the Cheetah virus begins to take hold again. This only leaves "Destiny of the However Many Doctors It Was", but it's only implied this leads into the TVM, and in fact the Master could have been tried by his peers on multiple occasions (remind you of someone?).
|
|
|
Post by Digi on Jan 6, 2020 17:39:38 GMT
Somebody tell him he's forgotten about the Rathbone incarnation. (I say 'incarnation', but in "First Frontier" he's supposed to get a full 13-body regeneration cycle, but in "Happy Endings" he's run out of lives again, so Mr D may actually have left out a full thirteen Masters. In fact, even more than that, since David A. McIntee's abortive plan for the Master's timeline was to have the Tzun create multiple clones of him. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullet_Time_(novel) So, we're potentially looking at a lot more than 13. Back to the drawing board, Dorney).
No, JD hasn’t forgotten. BF typically pays little to no attention to novels or comics when constructing their stories. When understanding how they approach canon and chronology, unless they specifically identify otherwise, the only stuff that counts is TV and Big Finish.
|
|
|
Post by sherlock on Jan 6, 2020 17:50:27 GMT
Okay here’s a theory. The Tzun Nanities enabled the Master to regenerate into Rathbone incarnation, however they began breaking down. First this prevented Rathhbone from regenerating again, then his incarnation began failing and he degenerated into Tremas (cheetah virus and all). Tremas tries and fails to get another new body in Prime Time and then goes in search of the Warp Core which reduces him to Beevers again. Sensible suggestion, but I don't think it works. As I recall, in "First Frontier" the Cheetah virus has only infected Tremas, and all the non-Gallifreyan DNA is extracted from the Master. So, after considering various possibilities, here's my suggestion: 1) Survival 2) Peter Darvil-Evans's post-Survival story written for the benefit of prospective authors & reprinted in DWM a few years back 3) Tucker/Perry 7th Doctor/Master stories 4) The Master acquires his Deathworm Morphant ("The Eight Doctors") 5) A final confrontation between the 7th Doctor and the Master, in which the former ends up believing his has killed the latter (there's a throwaway line in one of the pre-FF NAs where the Doctor says he killed the Master, and I don't think that adaquetely describes "Survival") 6) First Frontier 7) Housewarming 8) Meanwhile, back at Tzun HQ, all the extracted DNA (which the Tzun mistakenly thought was just Trakenite and Cheetah) forms itself into the Deathworm Morphant. Possibly it takes over one of the Tzun genetically altered to like human, but that's not necessary. Either it has a copy of the Master's mind, or it has Tremas's mind and he's been driven mad and believes either he is the Master or ought to be. 8) The Deathworm Morphant hangs out at the Scoundrels Club ("The Missy Chronicles") 9) The Deathworm Morphant tracks down the Rathbone Master and attempts to take him over. All the various genetic templates - Gallifreyan, worm, Trakenite, Cheetah, Tzun if we've included that - kind of start to fight each other. The Master is able to temporarily stabilise himself as Rathbone by sacrificing his second through twelfth incarnations' worth of regeneration energy and using it to secure himself. 10) Happy Endings 11) The Master, having failed to loom himself a proper body, regenerates for the last time. There are two possible options here 11a - the presence of alien DNA causes the Master to regenerate into Tremas. He later tries to regenerate for the impossible thirteenth time, and this finally sloughs off Tremas and he reverts back to crispified Time Lord. His body ends up crumbling, and the Deathworm Morphant takes over Gordon Tipple's body instead. Gordon Tipple just happens to have some striking eyes. 11b - The Master's regeneration collapses, and reverts to a previous stable form - Pratt/Beevers. Post-regeneration trauma causes him to misunderstand how he lost Tremas's body (so he's not quite accurate in "Dust Breeding"). He later regenerates into Gordon Tipple, but the Cheetah virus begins to take hold again. This only leaves "Destiny of the However Many Doctors It Was", but it's only implied this leads into the TVM, and in fact the Master could have been tried by his peers on multiple occasions (remind you of someone?). Doesn’t the Master suggest that he went straight from Survival to the events setting up First Frontier though? (I haven’t read it, just going on what I’ve heard from wikis and guides).
|
|
|
Post by themeddlingmonk on Jan 6, 2020 18:30:05 GMT
Yeah, The Master escapes Cheetah World using a Kitling and becomes stranded in America during the 50s I think it is? Anyway it leads into First Frontier with the Master making a deal with the Tzun to have his infected Trakenite body engineered into a Time Lord body with a full regeneration cycle by their Nanites.
His body does become Time Lord again, and then the Master is shot by Ace and regenerates into the "Basil Rathbone" incarnation.
Then he later turns up in a decalog story where he faces off against Sarah Jane Smith.
His last appearance was in Happy Endings. It’s commonly believed that the Tzun Nanites are failing and that’s the reason for him looking for a new regeneration cycle, but I don’t think that’s actually what the novel tells us.
There’s never actually any mention of anything being wrong with his Tzun body and I don’t believe there’s a mention of him attempting to get a new regeneration cycle.
He’s basically trying to clone an indestructible body, presumably because he went through his first cycle so quickly he’d rather have a sturdier body that’s likely to survive his lifestyle.
|
|
|
Post by fitzoliverj on Jan 6, 2020 18:33:20 GMT
No, JD hasn’t forgotten. BF typically pays little to no attention to novels or comics when constructing their stories. I think you may be taking my remarks over-seriously. (Mind you, if a throwaway "First Frontier" reference is good enough for Matt Fitton....) Doesn’t the Master suggest that he went straight from Survival to the events setting up First Frontier though? (I haven’t read it, just going on what I’ve heard from wikis and guides). You could be right. That may have been another reason why I originally inferred an unchronicled story. Anyway, I think the idea of dividing the Master into a temporary division of Rathbone and Slug is better than going down the old cloning path. The only other possibility is having the Master change from one body to another and then get forced back into the first body and having it appear again and again separated by other incarnations, and that would be *mad*....
|
|
|
Post by Digi on Jan 6, 2020 18:37:33 GMT
No, JD hasn’t forgotten. BF typically pays little to no attention to novels or comics when constructing their stories. I think you may be taking my remarks over-seriously. (Mind you, if a throwaway "First Frontier" reference is good enough for Matt Fitton.... Perhaps I did. My apologies
|
|
|
Post by sherlock on Jul 11, 2020 0:57:48 GMT
So The Lumiat has some fairly big implications for the Master’s timeline- {Spoiler} In it Missy encounters the Lumiat, a future incarnation of the Master who will be created by Missy in her dying moments in a desperate attempt to survive with an Elysian Field (we hear some brief clips of said dying moments). The Field totally deconstructs future Missy on an atomic level and then resssembles her in a new incarnation. This results in the new incarnation being totally moral, hence her change in title to the Lumiat, though she apparently loses some memories in the process. At the end of the story Missy murders the Lumiat and dumps her on a random planet mid-regeneration. Missy believes that the Lumiat’s next incarnation will revert back to evil.
Writer Lisa McMullin confirms in the writers’ note, now available on the backstage section of the product page, that the Lumiat was intended as a kind of bridge between Missy and any new TV Masters, and then Dhawan’s version turned up on TV. So McMullin seems to be of the opinion that the Lumiat is between Missy and Dhawan.
Whilst interacting with Missy, the Lumiat says the phrase ‘Time Lady, I’m old fashioned that way’, which Missy claims she’ll have to steal one day. That’s what Missy said to the Doctor in Dark Water. The Lumiat also says ‘say something nice’, which Missy perks up at. This kinda implies that this story is prior to Series 8. Therefore the entire Missy spin-off (as the entire series is sequential) might actually take place prior to Missy’s appearances in Series 8.
|
|
|
Post by shallacatop on Jul 11, 2020 16:10:58 GMT
I think The Lumiat stuff is a little exaggerated. I’m not sure where the big implications are at this stage; not unless they make more content with the character.
I agree that the Missy content from Big Finish is so far pre-Series 8. It makes sense, with her wanting to get a new TARDIS in Series 1 and the running theme of Series 2 being her wanting to get the Doctor’s attention, which ties in with her plan in Series 8. I’m not keen on the placement, as I like the idea that the events of The Doctor Falls for the Simm Master gains Missy her Cyber army in Dark Water, but what Big Finish are doing does make sense.
|
|
|
Post by themeddlingmonk on Jul 11, 2020 16:35:18 GMT
I think Day of the Master might perhaps go later on, but The Bekdel Test and the Missy Series is certainly pre-Series 8. The Lumiat hammered that home.
|
|
|
Post by sherlock on Oct 8, 2020 11:27:58 GMT
Not really sure where Master Thief or Lesser Evils belong. {Spoiler} Master Thief has no references to other Delgado stories and ends with the Master about to suffer amnesia, but having left a message for himself in hopes of his future amnesiac self restoring his memories.
Lesser Evils has really nothing reference-wise. It kinda implies the Master might be stuck on the planet due to the Time Lords, but a lot of his motivations are revealed as a lie at the end so whether that’s actually true is unclear.
|
|
|
Post by sherlock on Oct 8, 2020 22:21:57 GMT
Not really sure where Master Thief or Lesser Evils belong. {Spoiler} Master Thief has no references to other Delgado stories and ends with the Master about to suffer amnesia, but having left a message for himself in hopes of his future amnesiac self restoring his memories.
Lesser Evils has really nothing reference-wise. It kinda implies the Master might be stuck on the planet due to the Time Lords, but a lot of his motivations are revealed as a lie at the end so whether that’s actually true is unclear.
Update- This interview with Simon Guerrier kinda suggests Lesser Evils is sometime between the Master’s appearances in The Trial of a Time Lord and Survival. ’My two big notes were that he’s very different in his final screen story, Survival, from his previous appearance in The Trial of a Time Lord. So there was space there to suggest that something had happened to him that affected his character – and perhaps even explained why he lost his fetching velvet outfit.’
|
|
|
Post by sherlock on Jan 5, 2021 14:29:42 GMT
Masterful {Spoiler} Milo Parker: The Master has decided he will one day leave Gallifrey but is still young. He only kills out of necessity.
Geoffrey Beevers: He’s been suffering for “millennia” and suggests Roberts is a past body he stole. So likely between Mastermind and Planet of Dust.
Eric Roberts: He’s young on the cover, so before the recent online videos. That’s all we have to go on, there’s no reference to whether originated in the Vortex or what not.
Alex MacQueen: He refers to messing around with Sontaran DNA, which could be a reference to Dark Eyes 4? Otherwise nothing to really go on.
Derek Jacobi: He’s been fighting the war all his life. So probably near the Anti-Genesis/Only the Good part of his life.
John Simm: He’s been mortally wounded and is very hostile to Missy, so post-The Doctor Falls.
Michelle Gomez: Missy’s familiar with the Lumiat and seems to have a TARDIS. So likely sometime between Missy Series 2 and her appearances in Series 8.
Gina McKee: Sometime prior to her fatal encounter with Missy in The Lumiat.
Mark Gatiss: He’s the ruler of his universe, though admits its “small”. This is exactly the status quo at the end of The True Saviour of the Universe. So it’s sometime between that and Anti-Genesis, where his universe comes to an end.
And introducing...Entropy Wave as the final form of the Master. Possibly.
And of course all of this takes place in a timeline which is likely erased at the end.
|
|
|
Post by themeddlingmonk on Jan 5, 2021 14:40:34 GMT
Masterful {Spoiler} Milo Parker: The Master has decided he will one day leave Gallifrey but is still young. He only kills out of necessity.
Geoffrey Beevers: He’s been suffering for “millennia” and suggests Roberts is a past body he stole. So likely between Mastermind and Planet of Dust.
Eric Roberts: He’s young on the cover, so before the recent online videos. That’s all we have to go on, there’s no reference to whether originated in the Vortex or what not.
Alex MacQueen: He refers to messing around with Sontaran DNA, which could be a reference to Dark Eyes 4? Otherwise nothing to really go on.
Derek Jacobi: He’s been fighting the war all his life. So probably near the Anti-Genesis/Only the Good part of his life.
John Simm: He’s been mortally wounded and is very hostile to Missy, so post-The Doctor Falls.
Michelle Gomez: Missy’s familiar with the Lumiat and seems to have a TARDIS. So likely sometime between Missy Series 2 and her appearances in Series 8.
Gina McKee: Sometime prior to her fatal encounter with Missy in The Lumiat.
Mark Gatiss: He’s the ruler of his universe, though admits its “small”. This is exactly the status quo at the end of The True Saviour of the Universe. So it’s sometime between that and Anti-Genesis, where his universe comes to an end.
And introducing...Entropy Wave as the final form of the Master. Possibly.
And of course all of this takes place in a timeline which is likely erased at the end. {Spoiler} Only thing I’d potentially disagree on is that Missy seems to be using her Scottish accent so I’d probably put it after Deep Breath.
|
|
|
Post by themeddlingmonk on Aug 4, 2021 19:23:21 GMT
{Killing Time } It’s set during The Sky Man from WM1 Only the Good.
The Master keeps mentioning his vineyard throughout the set, and Scott Handcock confirmed on Gallifreybase that the intention was for the Master to be off doing other things while Cole was helping the villagers and he wasn’t just tending to his vineyard.
I guess you could say he was killing time.
|
|
|
Post by sherlock on Jun 17, 2022 22:30:28 GMT
Self-Defence- {Spoiler} So there’s a single storyline running through all four stories. This occurs during The Sky Man, likely before Killing Time for reasons I’ll explain.
The Players and Boundaries are mostly flashbacks stories the present Master is retelling. The Players’ story could be anytime during Jacobi Master’s life really. Boundaries is what the Master was up to prior to the main Self-Defence storyline kicking off. It’s set a weeks into The Sky Man, with the Master just starting his vineyard. He hasn’t harvested anything yet, indicating this is before Killing Time where he has a bottle of his own wine to hand.
|
|
|
Post by themeddlingmonk on Jun 17, 2022 23:39:59 GMT
Self-Defence- {Spoiler} So there’s a single storyline running through all four stories. This occurs during The Sky Man, likely before Killing Time for reasons I’ll explain.
The Players and Boundaries are mostly flashbacks stories the present Master is retelling. The Players’ story could be anytime during Jacobi Master’s life really. Boundaries is what the Master was up to prior to the main Self-Defence storyline kicking off. It’s set a weeks into The Sky Man, with the Master just starting his vineyard. He hasn’t harvested anything yet, indicating this is before Killing Time where he has a bottle of his own wine to hand. {Spoiler} Agreed, and iirc Self-Defence was actually written before Killing Time, but Killing Time was recorded and released first presumably because they struggled to schedule Tennant until lockdown 2020.
|
|