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Post by OneTen on Sept 13, 2016 19:00:27 GMT
Miracle Day is an odd beast. It's clearly an attempt to relaunch the show for the US market...but it's got absolutely loads of continuity about Gwen and Rhys' lives that really must have been odd for a new viewer to see. They're seeing a mostly US based espionage/conspiracy show..but it keeps cutting to a part of the UK they probably couldn't find on a map and you'd be left wondering why these Welsh people are so important while the characters that really should be the leads are killed off or ignored. As much as I like Gwen, I think to give the show a fighting chance of getting past Miracle Day, it should have been a soft-reboot with only Jack carrying over and Rex, Vera and Esther being pushed harder as the new leads rather than secondary to Jack and Gwen. Instead the show falls into a trap that RTD has always slagged the TV Movie for - trying too hard to appease an existing audience when you're then hurting your chances to build a whole new one. That said there's some gorgeous stuff in Miracle Day. Absolutely wonderful in places, and meandering in others. Following CoE meant it was always on a bit of a hiding to nothing already, but much like the first two years of the show it's too inconsistent. Yes it's an odd beast, and yes there's some gorgeous stuff in it. But, for me, that includes some of my favourite Gwen stuff. I'm delighted she was in it. I like it at least as much as the non-CoE series. I did feel it promised a lot, and with a bit of radical editing could have delivered another fantastic 5 hour show. But the meanders killed the incredible momentum from episode 1. Given that Torchwood was finding its US feet, maybe series 5 would have been where it all came together... Meanwhile, I wonder what's happened to the series 5 on audio that James Goss mentioned having discussed with RTD... Has it been lost in all this "back to TV" scheming...?
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Post by Ela on Sept 13, 2016 20:01:43 GMT
I've always wondered what happened with Rex...
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Sept 13, 2016 20:12:19 GMT
Barrowman's gone down in my estimations after that. It's a bit unprofessional and catty. He has pretty much killed any chance that Moffat would bring Jack back before he leaves now and consequently ruined it for us fans who want to see the character return.
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Post by fuurei on Sept 13, 2016 20:17:16 GMT
It's not just fans believing it though is it? Media outlets are running the story all over the place so they believe that's who Barrowman meant as well. Crucially though - has Barrowman done anything to deny it is Moffat when the fans and media reported it en masse? It's in newspapers and media outlets like Digital Spy so if Mofffat stumbled on the news by chance, I don't think it would escape Barrowman his words are all over the press and he'd be able to say "it's not Moffat" on one of his many social media platforms or by issuing a statement as Moffat has. I can't disagree. Really Barrowman needs to speak more carefully. Or not make statements like the one that started this kerfuffle at all. Agreed -- and even if Barrowman didn't explicitly name Moffat (or anyone at all), there was a pretty strong implication in what he said. Like really, when he says "in particular when somebody leaves, and somebody new and wonderful comes in", when everybody knows that Chibnall is about to become showrunner and Chibnall was very involved in Torchwood... I feel like either he didn't think about it at all before saying it or he knew exactly how the fans and the media would interpret that statement and said it anyway.
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Post by fuurei on Sept 13, 2016 20:26:52 GMT
Barrowman's gone down in my estimations after that. It's a bit unprofessional and catty. He has pretty much killed any chance that Moffat would bring Jack back before he leaves now and consequently ruined it for us fans who want to see the character return. Well, you could always hope for Chibnall to bring him back, since Barrowman seems to think highly of him. Regardless, I expect Moffat's already made whatever plans he's going to have made for his last series already, so I don't think this would affect it. (At the very least, if Jack were going to come back this season I'd expect John Barrowman to have already heard about it, and then maybe he wouldn't have made these statements to begin with.)
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Sept 13, 2016 20:37:17 GMT
He has pretty much killed any chance that Moffat would bring Jack back before he leaves now and consequently ruined it for us fans who want to see the character return. Well, you could always hope for Chibnall to bring him back, since Barrowman seems to think highly of him. Regardless, I expect Moffat's already made whatever plans he's going to have made for his last series already, so I don't think this would affect it. (At the very least, if Jack were going to come back this season I'd expect John Barrowman to have already heard about it, and then maybe he wouldn't have made these statements to begin with.) He might have been in the 2017 Christmas Special if he hadn't made these comments. If he were to be in Series 10 his contract has probably now been terminated.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2016 23:09:51 GMT
I can't disagree. Really Barrowman needs to speak more carefully. Or not make statements like the one that started this kerfuffle at all. Agreed -- and even if Barrowman didn't explicitly name Moffat (or anyone at all), there was a pretty strong implication in what he said. Like really, when he says "in particular when somebody leaves, and somebody new and wonderful comes in", when everybody knows that Chibnall is about to become showrunner and Chibnall was very involved in Torchwood... I feel like either he didn't think about it at all before saying it or he knew exactly how the fans and the media would interpret that statement and said it anyway. Alternatively, and what I think seems to be the case - he is 100% referring to Moffat and just has his facts wrong. He clearly expected the audience to know who at the Beeb was leaving to be replaced by someone they'd also know by name....I can't imagine most people are familiar with the runners and riders at the Beeb. I think he clearly meant Moffat. Who else has the recognition to be the target of the "nudge, wink" treatment - and who else is leaving imminently?
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Post by xlozdob on Sept 13, 2016 23:16:53 GMT
In fairness, Barrowman didn't name Moffat, or so I understand. It was all just a nod and a wink. I don't know if true or not, but I read somewhere (probably twitter) that he had actually named Moffat specifically when talking to some fans. As I said, don't know if it's true, probably just people gossiping.
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Post by kimalysong on Sept 14, 2016 0:28:55 GMT
Agree with others this was unprofessional of Barrowman. Even if something is true it's always better to not air your dirty laundry in public.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2016 3:51:16 GMT
I probably should keep my mouth shut as its not my place, but just for the sake of a hint of context for where Barrowman might be coming from, I suspect that there are going to be a lot of unfavourable stories about Moffat in the years after he leaves, if even half the things I have heard have even a small grain of truth to them. If so, it'll be like JNT all over again (though for different sorts of reasons, obviously). He has seemingly rubbed an awful lot of people the wrong way during his tenure, allegedly including a few who might well come as quite a surprise to many fans.
Mind you, the way Market Who is run these days may insulate him from much of the worst of it, at least for a good while, as unlike the years following classic Who, folks generally seem far more careful about doing or saying anything that might be viewed negatively on them by their corporate overlords, or with breaking the unwritten rule of not saying anything that might in any way taint the Who brand, so we might not hear much until the relevant people have nothing much left to lose, career wise. But by certain accounts there were some very turbulent times, to put it mildly.
Still, even so, I guess all that should matter to us is what ends up on the screen at the end of the day. Though it's hard not to be fascinated by some of the machinations and egos at play, at times...
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Post by barnabaslives on Sept 14, 2016 4:36:45 GMT
Alternatively, and what I think seems to be the case - he is 100% referring to Moffat and just has his facts wrong. You can actually hear the audience thinking "Moffat" in that video clip but it is all very curious - John doesn't seem to say so far that it isn't Moffat, and Moffat (who thinks he was named when he doesn't seem to have actually been named, and doesn't say who it is that can block Torchwood if it isn't him personally); the interview has John referring to egos plural getting in the way in three consecutive paragraphs and little more than six months ago Eve was bagging Gwen and talking about Starz as if obstructionist, IIRC. At the start of the interview, John sounded to have been talking to someone - who doesn't sound like Moffat if there's apparently such poor communication between Barrowman and Moffat? - and being presented with one obstacle after another... IS John being given the run-around by someone he spoke to, or are there multiple persons being obstructionist and that has contributed to the confusion (i.e., if Moffat isn't in a position to block Torchwood, he might be in a position to make decisions about Torchwood characters on DW, and this along with Moffat's visibility has gotten Moffat alluded to, and then misinterpreted the key naysayer)? Somehow it all does remind me of having to have a call forwarded eight times before speaking to the right person and worse yet if the right person were actually five different parties... Or is it all just a clever scheme to get Torchwood a page in Kerfluffle Weekly? (I give up, exactly how much hate mail does Moffat have to receive to illustrate that there are still viewers passionate about the show? Maybe I should send him some myself if it will help any, and since he didn't tell us who the rightful recipient would actually be). :-) Ah, well - at least Big Finish is certainly spoiling us with Torchwood. As at least several people have said previously, it's great that we have been able to get the kind of stories that we probably wouldn't get even if the TV series did resume. I would most certainly watch it if it did, although somehow I don't see it happening until it gets sorted out who it's actually up to. :-)
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Post by agentten on Sept 19, 2016 4:21:31 GMT
I've always wondered what happened with Rex... Same here. Rex is a pretty big event in the Torchwood world. I don't know if Big Finish can lure Mekhi Phifer since he's a U.S. based actor and pretty busy, but I'd certainly like to hear the next chapter of his story.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2016 5:31:09 GMT
I've always wondered what happened with Rex... Same here. Rex is a pretty big event in the Torchwood world. I don't know if Big Finish can lure Mekhi Phifer since he's a U.S. based actor and pretty busy, but I'd certainly like to hear the next chapter of his story. Our bodies renew our entire blood supply so my theory is thay he would lose his immortality once he no longer had any of Jack's cells. I really hate the transfusion thing and wish it had never happened
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Post by Zagreus on Sept 19, 2016 7:16:02 GMT
Does he still have his immortality in Exodus Code? If so, he's the immortal head of the CIA...
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bobod
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Post by bobod on Sept 19, 2016 11:21:16 GMT
. As much as I like Gwen, I think to give the show a fighting chance of getting past Miracle Day, it should have been a soft-reboot with only Jack carrying over and Rex, Vera and Esther being pushed harder as the new leads rather than secondary to Jack and Gwen. Instead the show falls into a trap that RTD has always slagged the TV Movie for - trying too hard to appease an existing audience when you're then hurting your chances to build a whole new one. Oh for me, Gwen IS Torchwood, much more than Jack is. No Gwen, no Bobo.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2016 11:54:45 GMT
. As much as I like Gwen, I think to give the show a fighting chance of getting past Miracle Day, it should have been a soft-reboot with only Jack carrying over and Rex, Vera and Esther being pushed harder as the new leads rather than secondary to Jack and Gwen. Instead the show falls into a trap that RTD has always slagged the TV Movie for - trying too hard to appease an existing audience when you're then hurting your chances to build a whole new one. Oh for me, Gwen IS Torchwood, much more than Jack is. No Gwen, no Bobo. Yes, for the UK but it doesn't matter if you wouldn't have watched - or me. We're in the UK where it did just fine. It didn't need to keep us happy, it had to impress a whole new audience unfamiliar with the show, Jack or Gwen Stateside. If you're relaunching in the US for a whole new audience though, who's your more obvious marketing choice as lead; Barrowman (who had already been a known face on Desperate Housewives) playing Jack - familiar accent, immortal, known face - or Eve Myles - thick, odd (to the US) accent, not known at all? Not much of a choice there. Gwen is a huge part of TW, no doubt - but part of the reason I think this flopped - and it did in the US no two ways about it - is being far too reverential to the UK incarnation and not disregarding enough continuity and making a fresh start for the show. Again, RTD has mocked the TV Movie for making very similiar mistakes as his show made here. I think you put Jack and new US crew front and centre then have people like Gwen and Andy in for "Season 2" of your soft-reboot.
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bobod
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Post by bobod on Sept 19, 2016 12:09:04 GMT
I just wouldn't have tuned in for that, so I'd find it hard to call it a success.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Sept 19, 2016 12:56:14 GMT
I probably should keep my mouth shut as its not my place, but just for the sake of a hint of context for where Barrowman might be coming from, I suspect that there are going to be a lot of unfavourable stories about Moffat in the years after he leaves, if even half the things I have heard have even a small grain of truth to them. If so, it'll be like JNT all over again (though for different sorts of reasons, obviously). He has seemingly rubbed an awful lot of people the wrong way during his tenure, allegedly including a few who might well come as quite a surprise to many fans. Mind you, the way Market Who is run these days may insulate him from much of the worst of it, at least for a good while, as unlike the years following classic Who, folks generally seem far more careful about doing or saying anything that might be viewed negatively on them by their corporate overlords, or with breaking the unwritten rule of not saying anything that might in any way taint the Who brand, so we might not hear much until the relevant people have nothing much left to lose, career wise. But by certain accounts there were some very turbulent times, to put it mildly. Still, even so, I guess all that should matter to us is what ends up on the screen at the end of the day. Though it's hard not to be fascinated by some of the machinations and egos at play, at times... The only things I've heard about Moffat bad blood behind the scenes is this John Barrowman controversy and his alleged falling out with the former executive producer Caroline Skinner over the 50th anniversary celebrations in 2013.
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Post by fuurei on Sept 19, 2016 15:13:43 GMT
I just wouldn't have tuned in for that, so I'd find it hard to call it a success. Well, that's sort of davygallagher's point, isn't it? You (and I, honestly) might not have tuned in for a reboot with just Jack in it and not Gwen. But if the reboot is looking for a new audience, it could take on an entirely different tone, and appeal to an entirely different set of people. It could be that existing Torchwood fans wouldn't have tuned in, but if done well it could've been a success by getting a totally new fanbase. (Despite being American myself, I've never really watched or enjoyed any American TV shows aside from being ambiently aware of them. Miracle Day felt to me like it was trying to both achieve the feel of an American show while also keeping its roots in the UK series of Torchwood, and who knows, maybe it would've picked up more American audiences if it'd gone further away from its roots. Though of course this is all hypothetical guesswork at this point.)
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bobod
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Post by bobod on Sept 19, 2016 15:32:15 GMT
I just wouldn't have tuned in for that, so I'd find it hard to call it a success. Well, that's sort of davygallagher's point, isn't it? You (and I, honestly) might not have tuned in for a reboot with just Jack in it and not Gwen. But if the reboot is looking for a new audience, it could take on an entirely different tone, and appeal to an entirely different set of people. It could be that existing Torchwood fans wouldn't have tuned in, but if done well it could've been a success by getting a totally new fanbase. (Despite being American myself, I've never really watched or enjoyed any American TV shows aside from being ambiently aware of them. Miracle Day felt to me like it was trying to both achieve the feel of an American show while also keeping its roots in the UK series of Torchwood, and who knows, maybe it would've picked up more American audiences if it'd gone further away from its roots. Though of course this is all hypothetical guesswork at this point.) I think Davy was more talking of how best to ADD to the audience, not replace it with a different one.
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