|
Post by omega on Nov 1, 2016 10:22:15 GMT
I have a theory. The accounts we've heard in the first three stories are told after the characters have been taken by the Lost, but aren't aware of it. This means the context in which the stories were told makes sense for each person telling them, or may even be a story they wanted to tell but couldn't. Dotty may have wanted to meet Dorian again so badly she made up an encounter, which she tells the manifestation of the Lost that has claimed her. The Lost have been profiling Dorian through the people he's had an impact on, which is how they create the hell for him in Ever After.
|
|
|
Post by philomina on Nov 1, 2016 10:51:15 GMT
On what literatedead and eightelements say about "the throwing the series under the bus element": I think we can't overlook the fact that the 3 stories leading up to the "is it real?" story are of 3 different people attesting to Dorian's existence throughout the last century. I don't think the choice to place these 4 stories together in this way is a coincidence. For me this isn't the end. I think we as the audience are just like all the other acquaintances Dorian makes thoughout his immortal life. We got to accompany him for what is just one chapter in his life. We were there for the happenings of 2016 (and of course we were privy to his confessions like some of his other acquaintances were at other points in his life). We learnt about the frustration of many of his acquaintances that just got to be part of a small period of his eternity. And we feel as frustrated as them having to deal with the fact that we get pushed out of his life at this excruciating point. In 5 years time Dorian might tell of what happened to him in 2016 as one of the other chapters of his life. Maybe this will even be a Special that might be considered by Scott, Alex and Big Finish. And as with all of Dorian's other acquaintances, some of us will be there to learn how things went on for Dorian, and some won't. From an ojective point of view, I understand the choices the creative team made here. I think the series went out in the purest of horrific ways. I think it was in "American Horror Story: Asylum" that they looked at the crux of having to prove you are you and you are sane. My romantic fan heart wanted something else for the character that we suffered so severely with. And me too, I will need a bit of time to be able to re-listen the series from the beginning again. But my fan heart also wanted amazing varied performances and varied creative scripts. And in that way I'm more than happy with the final series. EDIT: omega: "The Lost"?
|
|
|
Post by omega on Nov 1, 2016 11:25:56 GMT
The Lost are the antagonists in The Houses in Between. It's some kind of group mind that assimilates people Dorian has touched, tortured souls who just want peace and only Dorian's demise can do that.
In Ever After Dorian speculates it may be behind what is happening. I was only speculating, and it's not like we really got any answers as to what was really going on.
|
|
|
Post by literatedead on Nov 1, 2016 12:45:17 GMT
However, the ending doesn't prove that Dorian isn't real not at all. In fact as my friend philomina pointed out the first 3 stories of this boxset almost do prove his existence because we have 3 other characters that aren't Dorian talking about their experiences with Dorian Gray. In the end it's up to us. I choose to believe in Dorian's existence and that he woke up after he flatlined. Perhaps Satan will continue to make Dorian's life miserable for awhile in 2016 but by 2017 Dorian will find a way to overcome him and continue on his journey, maybe a way to get Toby back because I'm a romantic at heart. But either way the journey may end for us but I don't believe it's the end for Dorian. He's probably still not at peace but will live on and accumulate more regrets. A thought I considered was on the notion of the last story being Dorian tormented by Satan. If I was to tie this into Shades of Gray (thus turning that story into an epilogue for the series), I could see the notion that the Collector is a future form of Satan. That this is just the first of his 'games' against Dorian, and that the two will pursue each other throughout eternity endlessly. It's a debatable notion (still haven't had coffee yet, so I may end up figuring out the holes in this idea), but it's one to consider.
|
|
|
Post by rosekitten on Nov 1, 2016 12:53:17 GMT
If there was one thing that tied the entire boxset together it was the ambiguity of all stories including the final one. In the first story we never find out who did the killings, in the second we never find out if Dorian recognized James, and in the 3rd story we don't know if the second adventure happened with Dottie or if Dorothy was just relating a story because she missed her friend, etc. And yes in this last story Charles could have died or this could have just been an elaborate scheme the devil is playing on Dorian & he will wake up again after that death scene. We don't see what happens after so we make our own end. I understand people are upset by the ending but I actually think that is how we are supposed to feel unsettled, uncomfortable, etc. This was horror in its purest form for me as I was right there with Dorian terrified as he tried to prove his existence. After being alone losing all the people he loved he was now also losing the one thing he had left his sense of self. The last scene with the painting felt symbolic to me in this sense. And I feel what makes this work is we also have to feel the same doubt that Dorian does. The ending is absolutely shocking and gut wrenching and yes perhaps you want an answer but I think giving an answer would have sacrificed the impact of the ending. I personally think the ending was brilliant in the way it makes me feel and in the way it leaves room open for discussion and interpretation. However, the ending doesn't prove that Dorian isn't real not at all. In fact as my friend philomina pointed out the first 3 stories of this boxset almost do prove his existence because we have 3 other characters that aren't Dorian talking about their experiences with Dorian Gray. In the end it's up to us. I choose to believe in Dorian's existence and that he woke up after he flatlined. Perhaps Satan will continue to make Dorian's life miserable for awhile in 2016 but by 2017 Dorian will find a way to overcome him and continue on his journey, maybe a way to get Toby back because I'm a romantic at heart. But either way the journey may end for us but I don't believe it's the end for Dorian. He's probably still not at peace but will live on and accumulate more regrets. I agree, and I hope Dorian will get Toby back and they be together forever ❤
|
|
|
Post by kimalysong on Nov 1, 2016 13:38:40 GMT
A thought I considered was on the notion of the last story being Dorian tormented by Satan. If I was to tie this into Shades of Gray (thus turning that story into an epilogue for the series), I could see the notion that the Collector is a future form of Satan. That this is just the first of his 'games' against Dorian, and that the two will pursue each other throughout eternity endlessly. It's a debatable notion (still haven't had coffee yet, so I may end up figuring out the holes in this idea), but it's one to consider. On a personal note I'd like Dorian's future to not tie into Shades of Gray (although I do really like the idea of Dorian searching for the painting Satan stole from him for eternity perhaps never finding true peace. There is something poetic about that) but that's the beauty of this type of ending it may be unsettling and upsetting but where Dorian goes from here is up to each one of us.
|
|
|
Post by elkawho on Nov 1, 2016 14:43:06 GMT
AARRRRRRRRR!!!
I actually did that. I actually screamed when it was over.
And I hate to say...I hated it. I'm sorry Scott, I love you guys but I hated it. Now, on the plus side, you made me feel something. Actually, I'm feeling a lot.. I even started to cry, but I think out of frustration.
It's just that out of all these stories over all these years...the depth of character and the complexity of Dorian's long life and we are left with this ambiguous tale with which I had no emotional connection with anyone, not even Dorian. I never felt like I didn't know who Dorian was. I felt like he was an idiot for checking himself in to that madhouse and then being surprised. (I know, if he really did.) I did get the sense that this was Lucifer torturing him. And I really did feel as if Dorian did die at the end. That the way to kill Dorian Gray isn't with a gunshot. It's with taking away his reality and then digging out the part of his brain that is connected to that reality, or in other words, to the portrait. I know it's doubtful that it's as literal as all that, but it was the only thread I could hold on to during that whole story.
I agree with that the first 3 stories prove Dorian's existence, which makes my frustration with the last story worse. Again, I KNOW Dorian exists, so the only reason to put me through this is to torture me along with Dorian, which is not how I want my final story of a range I love to make me feel.
I also wanted more of Dorian himself. The real Dorian. Not someone else version of him, which is what all 4 stories were. The first 3 have been described. The last was not the real Dorian, it was the Dorian that the doctors, or Lucifer, or whoever wanted us to see. I wanted to say goodbye to Dorian, and I was denied that.
|
|
|
Post by fingersmash on Nov 1, 2016 15:18:07 GMT
I just finished and... I loved it. It was ambiguous and dark and Dorian was put through hell and torture and I just feel numb. Dorian dying with Satan's torture and Satan finally claiming his price, while Dorian's final days are presented to us as utter hell filled with monsters and ending with a literal drill to the brain. And I think it's appropriate that it was left ambiguous as the series has always been ambiguous on whether or not Dorian is truly confessing or it's a case of unreliable narrator and that's never more true than it was in series 5 with 3 stories with unreliable narrators and then that theme coming to a head with one of the most ambiguous stories I've ever heard.
|
|
|
Post by kimalysong on Nov 1, 2016 15:37:25 GMT
Yes the 1st 3 stories were not from Dorian's perspective but I found they added new complexities to the character. I mean we already had tons of stories of Dorian through Dorian's eyes but these last few stories we got to see Dorian through three other characters and that for me makes the character more complex. It's not just what he is telling us about himself but how others view him. It's like if you ever read a story with multiple POVs (A Song of Ice & Fire for example) it's interesting how characters change depending on whose POV we are at. Now don't get me wrong I did miss Dorian's narration because what can I say I love when Alex narrates. However, from a character perspective I think they did something very interesting that even in this final box set they added something new on how we can perceive Dorian.
However I completely disagree we weren't getting the real Dorian in the final story. We never got Charles or Dorian accepting he was Charles. It was a frustrated, lonely, regretful Dorian but it always Dorian. As someone who loves this character my heart broke when he confessed about his feelings about Christmas Eve, about him begging for his Portrait to stay, about all his memories & regrets. It was always the Dorian we know trying to prove his existence.
I won't deny that even if Dorian will wake up and continue on his journey this is a very bitter place to leave him. I may have preferred a less bitter stop on the journey for this character. But figuratively the mental hospital representing hell for Dorian is quite fitting for the character. With his soul back he is trapped. He has lost everything he loved trapped where he can only relive all his regrets & memories losing even Dorian Gray. As he quoted Oscar Wilde "We are each our own Devil and we make this world our hell". It's tragic and bitter but I do think there is a certain poetry to it. It brings us back to the very first story where Oscar & Dorian talked about all those regrets he would pile up over the years and now they are all coming back to haunt him.
And no I don't think the end is the end. It's left ambiguous for a reason but I think in this case having an epilogue would have did disservice to the ending and the feeling it was supposed to create in the audience.
|
|
|
Post by fingersmash on Nov 1, 2016 16:08:47 GMT
I think the best part of this story, realizing this just now, the flatline could be Dorian escaping Satan's torture and continuing on forever and ever (Shades of Gray, the Christmas story in New York with Mina Harker, all that) until he decides to end it on his own terms. There's definitely an infinite amount of stories from Dorian and maybe in a few years, Alex and Scott will decide to do a few one off reunions. Hopefully. But I think Ever After was a good ending. Beautiful, bittersweet, and terrifying. Just like some of the best in the series.
|
|
|
Post by kimalysong on Nov 1, 2016 16:31:54 GMT
I think the best part of this story, realizing this just now, the flatline could be Dorian escaping Satan's torture and continuing on forever and ever (Shades of Gray, the Christmas story in New York with Mina Harker, all that) until he decides to end it on his own terms. There's definitely an infinite amount of stories from Dorian and maybe in a few years, Alex and Scott will decide to do a few one off reunions. Hopefully. But I think Ever After was a good ending. Beautiful, bittersweet, and terrifying. Just like some of the best in the series. I thought it was brilliant and really daring from the start but the more I analyze it the more I love it. Once you get past that it may not be the ending you were hoping for the character you realize how many layers and interpretations there are to the whole story not just the ending. It can be taking literally or figuratively and I love stories where I don't get all the answers. I am relistening now and I feel like there is so much I can dig my teeth into here. The final story is also a very raw look at Dorian. This is his final confession to us.
|
|
|
Post by elkawho on Nov 1, 2016 17:45:24 GMT
It absolutely was daring, and I do appreciate that Scott did not take the easy way out. I loved the first 3 stories and did like having other characters' perspectives regarding their experiences with Dorian. I don't know what I was expecting, just that this ending leaves me frustrated.
|
|
|
Post by Trace on Nov 2, 2016 0:40:20 GMT
Well, well, well....so much has been said already, both negative and positive, but I do need to chime in! I loved it. I won't go into great detail, simply because most of my thoughts have already been expressed very well by others. I didn't take this as an "ending" per se. Dorian has "ended" before, and there are always ways to go back. It was not a happy tale, but this range had relatively few of those (if any!). Happy moments throughout the many audios, sure, but no all-around happy tales. Yes, I was uncomfortable and uneasy. I expected that--we were warned. Alex himself said the fans would be divided. I actually LOVE the fact that this particular story inspires such extreme reactions--all works of art do. And Dorian IS a work of art--figuratively and literally.
It certainly wasn't tied up in a neat box, and much is left to our own interpretation! My sympathies for those who were expecting a clear-cut payoff--I didn't harbor any illusions that we were going to get that.
I DO feel that "Shades of Gray" has always fit well with this range as canon....and still does. It gives me a measure of comfort to know that six centuries from now, he's still out there. So, for me as for others, "Ever After" as 'the end' is just a temporary stepping off place. Dorian's story continues, even if we aren't part of it for the foreseeable future.
Looking at this 'final' episode from a critical standpoint, it was tense and ambiguous, frustrating and scary, horrible and beautiful, hopeful and (ultimately) sad....I found it inspired and lovely. A fitting farewell, but NOT goodbye. We WILL hear from Dorian again--not because Scott and Alex plan to return--I'm sure they have no intention of that at this moment in time. We'll hear from him again because he's timeless--and great characters (especially immortal ones) refuse to die. They have a way of finding their way back to us!
|
|
|
Post by Trace on Nov 2, 2016 0:50:12 GMT
Now I must go and savor the remaining hour on the 'Behind the Scenes' disk but I'm putting it off because I'm not ready to let go of Dorian at this time. Farewells are difficult for me. (Notice I'm not saying "goodbyes"?)
|
|
|
Post by chopper on Nov 3, 2016 2:01:53 GMT
Just listened to them all on a long car journey back home. And really enjoyed 75% of it.
This last episode was extremely disappointing. There's never really been any question of whether Dorian was real or not, so throwing that element into the mix at the end of the series feels a little uninspired.
Part of the problem is that they already used the perfect end to the series at the end of series 2.
The biggest criticism I have though is that it was boring. It's a shame to finish the series on a Zagreus but at least the journey was a blast.
|
|
|
Post by chapwithwings on Nov 6, 2016 18:14:08 GMT
|
|
|
Post by kimalysong on Nov 6, 2016 23:33:48 GMT
Ended up listening to the last story multiple times and wanted to try to analyze parts of the story.With each listen I discovered new things and more to love. Keeping this under a spoiler cut because it's on the lengthy side. Have not had a chance to listen to the Extras yet so they did not influence what I wrote. Was Dorian Gray ever real or is he the deluded fantasy of a man named Charles White? Is Dorian in a mental institution or Hell? Does Dorian Gray die at the end or does he live on? After listening to Ever After I do have my own personal interpretations of these questions. However, the beauty of this story is it’s left ambiguous and up to each one of us. In fact I believe there is no correct answer to any of the above questions. “ All art is at once surface and symbol”- From the preface of The Picture of Dorian Gray “ In this Cell or in your head, maybe I’m in neither, maybe I’m in both, maybe I’m somewhere else entirely?” – The Portrait to Dorian in Ever AfterThe best type of story can be looked at from multiple angles. One interpretation doesn’t exclude the other. Ever After can be looked at both literally or figuratively. Ever After is a treasure of motifs and symbols and these are just a few that stood out to me personally. Hell & Happiness “ All those years all those people all those mistakes burned onto my memories in such intricate arduous detail. You think the longer you live the more you forget but that isn’t the case at all you remember more and more and it’s always so visceral. Every injury, every heartache, every death, and I remember every second of it.”
I don’t need to point out that the mental institution in this story is a representation of Hell because Dorian says so himself. It does not matter in the end whether Dorian is in a real mental institution or he is trapped somewhere by the whims of Lucifer. Hell is a state of mind here and as Dorian quotes Oscar Wilde “We are each our own devil and we make this world our hell”
Dorian in this story also talks about happiness. At the very beginning of the story Dorian asks Dr. Lippincott “Would you be Happy if you lived the sort of life I lead?” But throughout the story, Dorian makes it clear he is not seeking happiness. Perhaps if Dorian gave in and let go he could be content as Charles White but that is not what Dorian wants. He doesn’t want medicine to limit his perceptions. He wants to experience everything good & bad. Ultimately, he just wants to live. He may have all the time in the world but he’s wasting it “ …to find myself here, locked away, confined within small 4 walls with barely a whisper of the outside world beyond”. Dorian also mentions the mundanity is starting to get to him “ routine, wake, eat, wash sleep…” It seems the only thing Dorian has left to hang onto is his anger, his defiance, the fight to prove his existence. Besides this he also has are all those details of his life ingrained into his memory. Those details may be painful but losing them may be even worse. In this story is Hell an even better fate than happiness for Dorian? In Hell, Dorian can still fight but with happiness...? Dr. Lippincott as Dorian’s Psychologist or Alter Ego/Brennan as another inmate or Dorian’s Imaginary Friend & Subconscious
These are two characters that are very important in this story and what they may represent for Dorian. Alter ego- A second self, a trusted friend, the opposite side of a personality Subconscious- Of or concerning the part of the mind of which one is not fully aware but which influences one's actions and feelings
This range is called Confessions of Dorian Gray where we are privy to Dorian’s innermost thoughts. Who was he confessing to all this time? Not to the audience, but to that portrait in his attic, his confidant and closest companion. Here Dorian is again confessing to another manifestation of himself Dr. Lippincott (note: Lippincott is the name of the magazine where The Picture of Dorian Gray was first published…Thanks philomina for the tip). As Lippincott states “ Ultimately you are analyzing yourself, your thoughts, and your motivations, prompting you to consider your own actions.” The only person Dorian was ever confessing to was Dorian. In this story we are probably privy to Dorian’s deepest thoughts, regrets & anxieties. This is his last call for help but the only one he has left to ask for help is himself. “ I’m alone again, no family, no friends just me and my stupid soul and all the stupid emotions that entails, the memories I can’t deal with, all the urges I can’t fathom, a century of regret and loss and pain and I can’t deal with that anymore not now”
When we see Dr. Lippincott trying to convince Dorian that he is Charles White and Dorian arguing to the contrary this could just represent Dorian trying to figure out who he truly is with himself. But as he later tells the Portrait he doesn't even fully trust in himself. “Do you not trust yourself? “ “I don’t think I’ve trusted anyone less.”
Then there is Brennan, Dorian’s imaginary friend who we first meet in Running Away with You. In this story Brennan reappears in Dorian’s life when Dorian is at his most vulnerable and alone. If Brennan was Dorian’s subconscious what was he trying to influence Dorian to do? Was he just there as a sounding board? Was he trying to get Dorian to give up and just be happy? Or was he trying to get Dorian to hold onto Dorian Gray? What does it symbolize when Dorian supposedly beats up his imaginary friend and subconscious? It is interesting to me that Dr. Lippincott only disappears after Dorian beats up Brennan. Dorian’s portrait also visits him one final time after this incident. Gaining a Soul/Losing the Portrait & Dorian Gray
I always wondered what the loss of Dorian’s soul represented in Confessions. In Oscar Wilde’s novel Dorian’s soul was his portrait but that never seemed to be the case here. Charles White is another character we met before in The Fallen King of Britain. There he is as Dorian states in this story just a cover. Could Charles White be just as real as Dorian Gray? Did not having a soul change who Dorian would have been? Does having a soul now change who he is? Was the lack of soul tied up with Dorian’s identity as Dorian Gray? “ Is getting my soul back diminishing me?”…”
In Enigma of Dorian Gray, Dorian even says “I ’m a self-made man I am whoever I want to be…” In that sense did not having a soul make Dorian Gray who he was? Not having a soul made Dorian an empty slate he could be whom he chose to be. So what does it truly mean for Dorian that he now has his soul back? Dr. Lippincott tells Dorian “ You recognize there is more to you than Dorian so as you come to terms of having your soul back you will shed this Dorian fantasy like a snake shedding its own skin”. Dorian also questions what it means to be Dorian Gray, not in terms of having his soul back but in terms of his now mundane life. “Is this what I am now, normal? Dorian Gray was never normal. So am I not Dorian Gray?” In the end what makes us who we are? Is it our actions? Is it our memories? Is it the people who remember us? Or is it all these things at once? “I keep hearing voices from the past, people I’d long forgotten, people I hoped I never remember, every one of them calling my name, each of them calling out to me begging me to remember who they are & who I am too.”
__________________________________________________________________ “Stay with me please, until dawn, until the morning. Stay with me and talk before the Lost, before they come for me. Can you do that please my portrait?” “Relive old times!” “A prelude to the best ones yet to come”.
At the same time that Dorian gains his soul he also loses the portrait. Literally because Lucifer must have stolen it from the attic with the key Dorian gave to Toby. Symbolically I feel that final scene with Dorian and his portrait is very important. What does it mean when Dorian says goodbye to his portrait? Is the portrait like the lack of soul also tied up in the identity of Dorian Gray? I found it interesting that in this story when Dorian is talking to Victoria Lowell (or his mother) he stops distinguishing between what the portrait did and what he did. The portrait killed Victoria Lowell and yet Dorian tells her (paraphrasing) I killed you once and I can kill you again. Dorian also knows what Victoria Lowell told the portrait in the Series 3 finale “ Who better to bring the end of Dorian Gray than Dorian Gray Himself”. Contrast this with the fact that Dorian does not know what happened between Simon & Toby at the beginning of Desperately Seeking Santa. As the portrait tells Dorian they were always "... linked by invisible chains." When Dorian asks the portrait where he is, the portrait merely replies “ With you just as I have always been with you”. But then the portrait makes another statement; “ not in the room, never have been. Sometimes illusion is all we ever have” When Dorian was confessing to the portrait and Dr. Lippincott was he always just talking to himself? And now that both his alter-ego and portrait left him is he also losing the part of himself that was Dorian Gray? In the end of the story Doctor Tobias is literally trying to cut out Dorian Gray. We even hear Dorian Gray die. But we the listeners remember him and can a character ever truly die in that case? Won't Dorian Gray always be immortal and live on in the listeners memories & hearts?
|
|
|
Post by chapwithwings on Nov 7, 2016 6:39:02 GMT
That is a really deep and thought provoking analysis - a joy to read thanks so much for sharing.
|
|
|
Post by kimalysong on Nov 7, 2016 16:19:40 GMT
That is a really deep and thought provoking analysis - a joy to read thanks so much for sharing. Thank you very much. Of course I am not sure if any of that is what the story means and I am sure someone else could come up with an entirely different interpretation. I just think it was fun to dig deeper despite Oscar Wilde saying " Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril". But I do so out of love.
|
|
|
Post by acousticwolf on Nov 8, 2016 8:52:19 GMT
I've not read any of the posts above (how strong am I lol) but popped on to say I only have 9 more minutes left to go of Ever After and don't know whether to applaud @scotthandcock or slap him . It's been such a completely unexpected storytwist in the saga (or then again ... maybe not) but one thing's for sure, it's another great story - however it ends ... Cheers Tony
|
|