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Post by mrperson on Feb 28, 2017 17:09:17 GMT
What do you mean lack of laws? There are laws against everything from being a Peeping Tom to committing rape. In fact, the laws regarding sexual offenses go far beyond other criminal laws. For example, in MA and other states, someone who is convicted of a qualifying sexual offense can be committed civilly after serving their criminal sentence, perhaps for life. The entire point is that people who are already willing to risk the far greater criminal and civil penalties for sexual offenses are not going to be deterred by an extra law about what bathroom they should pee in. If they're going to rape, they're going to rape. If they're going to molest, they're going to molest. I always jump to worst case scenario, so don't get upset about it, ive explained, that's how my mind works. If a man goes into a womans restroom and exposes himself to a girl, and the police arrest him, and he lies his arse off and says he's a transgendered man, do you think our current laws can deal with that kind of thing?
I'm asking because I don't know. I don't want to see the man walk away scott free, I want him held and helpfully helped, but I sure don't want him walkin around exposing himself to others. As I said, I don't know, I know a little about the laws, but I'm no expert. Yes, you've just described a public lewdness offense. There's nothing about claiming to be transgendered that protects a person from prosecution for exposing themselves in a lude and lasivacious manner. Edit additions. Perhaps think of it along lines similar to gun control. In that context, there are some things that we can reasonably do in America, like preventing felons from buying guns. But at the end of the day, gun control measures are not going to stop a would-be armed robber or murderer from getting a gun and committing their crime. Hence, in this context, many jeer at gun control proposals, pointing out that perhaps we'll have to ban gasoline to prevent firebombings, knives to prevent stabbings, and so on. There's simply only so much a criminal law can do to deter a would-be criminal. I see bathroom laws as completely useless in terms of preventing sex crimes. It's sort of like saying that if you make private sales illegal and ban felons from buying guns, criminals won't be able to get guns. Of course they will, on the black market, and the law preventing them from possessing a gun or their lack of a license isn't going to deter them. Just like a transgendered person intent on committing a sex crime will simply ignore the bathroom law and go in when nobody is looking. Or, perhaps, in the same way that a law against assault and battery won't stop a would-be murderer from bashing your head in with a baseball bat. (There are also a whole lot of other flaws with the thinking in the bathroom fight, but I've covered some in prior posts and don't really feel like going into the others now).
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Post by ulyssessarcher on Feb 28, 2017 18:30:00 GMT
That helped, thanks for takin the time to explain it to me.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Feb 28, 2017 18:47:30 GMT
I always jump to worst case scenario, so don't get upset about it, ive explained, that's how my mind works. If a man goes into a womans restroom and exposes himself to a girl, and the police arrest him, and he lies his arse off and says he's a transgendered man, do you think our current laws can deal with that kind of thing?
I'm asking because I don't know. I don't want to see the man walk away scott free, I want him held and helpfully helped, but I sure don't want him walkin around exposing himself to others. As I said, I don't know, I know a little about the laws, but I'm no expert. Yes, you've just described a public lewdness offense. There's nothing about claiming to be transgendered that protects a person from prosecution for exposing themselves in a lude and lasivacious manner. Edit additions. Perhaps think of it along lines similar to gun control. In that context, there are some things that we can reasonably do in America, like preventing felons from buying guns. But at the end of the day, gun control measures are not going to stop a would-be armed robber or murderer from getting a gun and committing their crime. Hence, in this context, many jeer at gun control proposals, pointing out that perhaps we'll have to ban gasoline to prevent firebombings, knives to prevent stabbings, and so on. There's simply only so much a criminal law can do to deter a would-be criminal. I see bathroom laws as completely useless in terms of preventing sex crimes. It's sort of like saying that if you make private sales illegal and ban felons from buying guns, criminals won't be able to get guns. Of course they will, on the black market, and the law preventing them from possessing a gun or their lack of a license isn't going to deter them. Just like a transgendered person intent on committing a sex crime will simply ignore the bathroom law and go in when nobody is looking. Or, perhaps, in the same way that a law against assault and battery won't stop a would-be murderer from bashing your head in with a baseball bat. (There are also a whole lot of other flaws with the thinking in the bathroom fight, but I've covered some in prior posts and don't really feel like going into the others now). Almost perfect, just needs this fix: "Just like a transgendered person intent on committing a sex crime will simply ignore the bathroom law and go in when nobody is looking." Though you probably just missed it.
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Post by mrperson on Feb 28, 2017 22:20:57 GMT
Yes, you've just described a public lewdness offense. There's nothing about claiming to be transgendered that protects a person from prosecution for exposing themselves in a lude and lasivacious manner. Edit additions. Perhaps think of it along lines similar to gun control. In that context, there are some things that we can reasonably do in America, like preventing felons from buying guns. But at the end of the day, gun control measures are not going to stop a would-be armed robber or murderer from getting a gun and committing their crime. Hence, in this context, many jeer at gun control proposals, pointing out that perhaps we'll have to ban gasoline to prevent firebombings, knives to prevent stabbings, and so on. There's simply only so much a criminal law can do to deter a would-be criminal. I see bathroom laws as completely useless in terms of preventing sex crimes. It's sort of like saying that if you make private sales illegal and ban felons from buying guns, criminals won't be able to get guns. Of course they will, on the black market, and the law preventing them from possessing a gun or their lack of a license isn't going to deter them. Just like a transgendered person intent on committing a sex crime will simply ignore the bathroom law and go in when nobody is looking. Or, perhaps, in the same way that a law against assault and battery won't stop a would-be murderer from bashing your head in with a baseball bat. (There are also a whole lot of other flaws with the thinking in the bathroom fight, but I've covered some in prior posts and don't really feel like going into the others now). Almost perfect, just needs this fix: "Just like a transgendered person intent on committing a sex crime will simply ignore the bathroom law and go in when nobody is looking." Though you probably just missed it. Not missed. I covered that sub-point in my prior posts (I think); namely, that no law regarding lesser offenses (like a law you violate by peeing in the wrong bathroom) is going to deter someone intent on committing a greater offense (the sex crimes feared by people making a big deal out of this), regardless of gender status. And of course, I could also note that the victim doesn't particularly care whether or not their attacker is transgender, gay, straight, etc. I included the word transgender where you note because that is the focus for the thread and laws; the point immediately above merely points out yet another flaw in these laws. Of course, it's any person intent on committing a sense crime who won't be stopped.... ....and interestingly enough, those who want bathroom laws don't seem to recognize that we as a society seem to consider sex crime laws sufficient deterrence for every other gender status of would-be perps (or is it pervs).
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Post by mrperson on Feb 28, 2017 22:21:31 GMT
That helped, thanks for takin the time to explain it to me. Hey....arguing is what I do for a living....
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Post by icecreamdf on Mar 3, 2017 5:06:17 GMT
I just don't understand the issue. A cis-man can still go into the men's room and expose himself to little boys (or molest them or whatever) and a cis-woman can still, go into the women's room and expose herself to little girls (or molest them, etc.). What difference does it make if trans people are allowed in?
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Post by ulyssessarcher on Mar 3, 2017 6:25:09 GMT
I just don't understand the issue. A cis-man can still go into the men's room and expose himself to little boys (or molest them or whatever) and a cis-woman can still, go into the women's room and expose herself to little girls (or molest them, etc.). What difference does it make if trans people are allowed in? could you explain what cis-man/cis-woman means? I don't want to make my own assumptions on that.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2017 6:35:23 GMT
I just don't understand the issue. A cis-man can still go into the men's room and expose himself to little boys (or molest them or whatever) and a cis-woman can still, go into the women's room and expose herself to little girls (or molest them, etc.). What difference does it make if trans people are allowed in? could you explain what cis-man/cis-woman means? I don't want to make my own assumptions on that. In essence, a person whose gender identity matches the sex that they were assigned at birth.
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Post by ulyssessarcher on Mar 3, 2017 10:38:43 GMT
could you explain what cis-man/cis-woman means? I don't want to make my own assumptions on that. In essence, a person whose gender identity matches the sex that they were assigned at birth. Thank you very much. So, if I may ask, what is a person called, if their gender identity doesn't match the sex they were assigned at birth?(that's the most polite way I know to ask.)
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2017 10:55:20 GMT
In essence, a person whose gender identity matches the sex that they were assigned at birth. Thank you very much. So, if I may ask, what is a person called, if their gender identity doesn't match the sex they were assigned at birth?(that's the most polite way I know to ask.) Transgender usually. There's a lot of debate over the terms transsexual and transgender in regards to what each specifically mean (i.e. transsexual being someone who wants to physically as well as mentally change their gender, while a transgendered individual is content with existing in a body that doesn't reflect their personal identity), but transgender seems to be the most commonly accepted term.
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Post by ulyssessarcher on Mar 3, 2017 21:16:52 GMT
Thank you very much. So, if I may ask, what is a person called, if their gender identity doesn't match the sex they were assigned at birth?(that's the most polite way I know to ask.) Transgender usually. There's a lot of debate over the terms transsexual and transgender in regards to what each specifically mean (i.e. transsexual being someone who wants to physically as well as mentally change their gender, while a transgendered individual is content with existing in a body that doesn't reflect their personal identity), but transgender seems to be the most commonly accepted term. so a transgender male might wear dresses and makeup but does not want to physically change their gender, is that right? While a transsexual male wants surgery to become a female. Have I got the jist of it? More or less?
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Post by icecreamdf on Mar 3, 2017 21:29:42 GMT
Transgender usually. There's a lot of debate over the terms transsexual and transgender in regards to what each specifically mean (i.e. transsexual being someone who wants to physically as well as mentally change their gender, while a transgendered individual is content with existing in a body that doesn't reflect their personal identity), but transgender seems to be the most commonly accepted term. so a transgender male might wear dresses and makeup but does not want to physically change their gender, is that right? While a transsexual male wants surgery to become a female. Have I got the jist of it? More or less? Sort of, but backwards. A transgender male would be somebody who doesn't wear dresses and make up, but still has a female body. A transexual male would be somebody who wants surgery to become a male. You also have to remember that sex and gender aren't the same thing. Sex refers to your biological characteristics, while gender is what you identify as.
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