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Post by dasmaniac on Apr 19, 2017 20:33:59 GMT
What exactly makes the conservative party conservative? There's one issue that all the major conservative parties in the Western World support-republicanism but the UK Conservative Party supports Monarchism. How do British conservatives feel about federalism though? Would most British conservatives be aligned with the Democratic Party? I get the impression that Conservatives in America are very different. The British Conservative Party is a bit of a mix of Republican and Democrat. In short, it's in the middle. Some would argue, though, that Cameron was more American Democrat and May is more American Republican. Don't know if I'd agree, since I don't know enough about the US political system and what stereotypes each. American conservatives are unique in that American Conservatism encompasses a broad swath of differing views. The modern Republican Party has several wings. Factions of the Republican Party include: Mainstream or "Establishment" Conservatives: Pro business, lower taxes, deficit hawks, deregulation, simplified tax code. Mostly located in the midwest, parts of the mid-atlantic, and the mountain west. Religious Right-Strong emphasis on social conservatism, "traditional" values, gun rights, religion in the public sphere. Can sometimes overlap with the hawkish wing of the party. Almost entirely located in the South with pockets of support on the West Coat, great plains, and the mountain west. War Hawks: They generally agree with mainstream conservatives on everything except they are strongly pro intervention. John McCain is a good example. Moderate Wing: Moderate Republicans were once the majority of the party but have dwindled since the rise of Conservatism in the 1960's. Their views would most closely align the Conservative Party in the UK. Almost entirely situated in the Northeast with only a few moderates coming from other states.
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Post by lidar on Apr 19, 2017 21:19:12 GMT
I get the impression that Conservatives in America are very different. The British Conservative Party is a bit of a mix of Republican and Democrat. In short, it's in the middle. Some would argue, though, that Cameron was more American Democrat and May is more American Republican. Don't know if I'd agree, since I don't know enough about the US political system and what stereotypes each. American conservatives are unique in that American Conservatism encompasses a broad swath of differing views. The modern Republican Party has several wings. Factions of the Republican Party include: Mainstream or "Establishment" Conservatives: Pro business, lower taxes, deficit hawks, deregulation, simplified tax code. Mostly located in the midwest, parts of the mid-atlantic, and the mountain west. Religious Right-Strong emphasis on social conservatism, "traditional" values, gun rights, religion in the public sphere. Can sometimes overlap with the hawkish wing of the party. Almost entirely located in the South with pockets of support on the West Coat, great plains, and the mountain west. War Hawks: They generally agree with mainstream conservatives on everything except they are strongly pro intervention. John McCain is a good example. Moderate Wing: Moderate Republicans were once the majority of the party but have dwindled since the rise of Conservatism in the 1960's. Their views would most closely align the Conservative Party in the UK. Almost entirely situated in the Northeast with only a few moderates coming from other states. Very interesting. I would however say that the 1st group you list, the mainstream conservatives, are closer to the uk conservative party than the moderates. Maybe mainstream are the centre and right of the Conservative party with moderates closer to one nation conservatives. As for the other 2 groups the DUP are the nearest we have to a religious right in the uk and there are, or have been in recent years, a smattering of war hawks in each of the 3 uk-wide parties
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Post by dasmaniac on Apr 19, 2017 22:45:45 GMT
Are there any libertarian leaning politicians in Britain?
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Post by sherlock on Apr 19, 2017 22:59:49 GMT
Are there any libertarian leaning politicians in Britain? UKIP kind of claim to be libertarian and the Brexit campaign was libertarian in rhetoric against EU regulations. But generally libertarian isn't really a thing over here, simply because government regulation isn't really that big an issue.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Apr 19, 2017 23:10:27 GMT
Are there any libertarian leaning politicians in Britain? UKIP kind of claim to be libertarian and the Brexit campaign was libertarian in rhetoric against EU regulations. But generally libertarian isn't really a thing over here, simply because government regulation isn't really that big an issue. UKIP claim a lot of things but they're a one issue party with no issue left.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Apr 20, 2017 1:04:10 GMT
What exactly makes the conservative party conservative? There's one issue that all the major conservative parties in the Western World support-republicanism but the UK Conservative Party supports Monarchism. How do British conservatives feel about federalism though? Would most British conservatives be aligned with the Democratic Party? I get the impression that Conservatives in America are very different. The British Conservative Party is a bit of a mix of Republican and Democrat. In short, it's in the middle. Some would argue, though, that Cameron was more American Democrat and May is more American Republican. Don't know if I'd agree, since I don't know enough about the US political system and what stereotypes each. I'd actually argue that based on what I know about Cameron, I think he would be a Republican version of Bill Clinton. Kind of a William Weld or Jon Huntsman. I think May is probably a mainstream Republican in today's political context. Which to be fair is way more right-wing then they were 20 years ago. And again we come back to Bill Clinton who pulled the Democratic Party much more to the center which caused the GOP to move further to the right.
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Post by dasmaniac on Apr 20, 2017 2:17:14 GMT
I get the impression that Conservatives in America are very different. The British Conservative Party is a bit of a mix of Republican and Democrat. In short, it's in the middle. Some would argue, though, that Cameron was more American Democrat and May is more American Republican. Don't know if I'd agree, since I don't know enough about the US political system and what stereotypes each. I'd actually argue that based on what I know about Cameron, I think he would be a Republican version of Bill Clinton. Kind of a William Weld or Jon Huntsman. I think May is probably a mainstream Republican in today's political context. Which to be fair is way more right-wing then they were 20 years ago. And again we come back to Bill Clinton who pulled the Democratic Party much more to the center which caused the GOP to move further to the right. I get a very center right vibe from David Cameron. With Theresa May I agree she would fit in with the modern GOP. It's hard to analyze her ideology given the lack of public statements on a lot of issues. I think she would probably be a moderate conservative like Lisa Murkowski, the senator from Alaska.
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Post by fitzoliverj on Apr 20, 2017 7:43:37 GMT
British Politics fascinate me. What is the difference between Labor and Lib Dems though? They're both center-left parties right? Ha. Well, you would think that. Lib Dems are ironically meant to be 2/3 more right right wing, but that's beginning to change, really. The Liberal Democrats - a merger between the Liberal Party and the Labour offshoot the Social Democrats - are a bit hard to pin down. They've drawn a lot of support over the years from voters fed up with the Conservative party but who are not prepared to vote Labour, and - until Charles Kennedy was leader - Tory and Labour election agents would constantly call foul on the Lib Dems for campaigning locally on policies that went the other way at a national level. I think perhaps the best way of describing the Lib Dems would be the voters of the left of the Conservatives and the right and centre of Labour, with a centre Labour-type parliamentary party. (The left in Britain has a People's-Front-of-Judea-type problem; whereas the Conservative party has always prided itself on being a broad church, which is why it took so many years for it to claw its way back up after 1997, because nobody could agree which one thing it should be to all men).
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Apr 20, 2017 13:21:42 GMT
Ha. Well, you would think that. Lib Dems are ironically meant to be 2/3 more right right wing, but that's beginning to change, really. The Liberal Democrats - a merger between the Liberal Party and the Labour offshoot the Social Democrats - are a bit hard to pin down. They've drawn a lot of support over the years from voters fed up with the Conservative party but who are not prepared to vote Labour, and - until Charles Kennedy was leader - Tory and Labour election agents would constantly call foul on the Lib Dems for campaigning locally on policies that went the other way at a national level. I think perhaps the best way of describing the Lib Dems would be the voters of the left of the Conservatives and the right and centre of Labour, with a centre Labour-type parliamentary party. (The left in Britain has a People's-Front-of-Judea-type problem; whereas the Conservative party has always prided itself on being a broad church, which is why it took so many years for it to claw its way back up after 1997, because nobody could agree which one thing it should be to all men). Well, even then that stemmed from fall out from the Credit Crunch of 08 and the Iraq War, and Labour basically eating itself rather than the Tories actually having anything to say. Though Hague, IDS and Howerd were frankly terrible leaders and there's no way they could have won an election, the party needed Cameron and Osbourne.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2017 15:23:43 GMT
I get the impression that Conservatives in America are very different. The British Conservative Party is a bit of a mix of Republican and Democrat. In short, it's in the middle. Some would argue, though, that Cameron was more American Democrat and May is more American Republican. Don't know if I'd agree, since I don't know enough about the US political system and what stereotypes each. I'd actually argue that based on what I know about Cameron, I think he would be a Republican version of Bill Clinton. Kind of a William Weld or Jon Huntsman. I think May is probably a mainstream Republican in today's political context. Which to be fair is way more right-wing then they were 20 years ago. And again we come back to Bill Clinton who pulled the Democratic Party much more to the center which caused the GOP to move further to the right. Well in the 90s the left-wing parties in both continents sort of released they had to take politics from the right to be more succesful
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2017 16:30:36 GMT
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Post by number13 on Apr 20, 2017 19:07:40 GMT
I get a very center right vibe from David Cameron. With Theresa May I agree she would fit in with the modern GOP. It's hard to analyze her ideology given the lack of public statements on a lot of issues. I think she would probably be a moderate conservative like Lisa Murkowski, the senator from Alaska. Don't let Cameron's centrist rhetoric fool you for a second, he was, in recent British domestic terms, of the very far right, he and George Osborne made the systematic destruction of the welfare state their number one priority. The fact that they just weren't very competent fiscally or engaged in much foreign policy shouldn't blind one to the fact that these guys were ideologically driven. Theresa May is just a cipher, I don't think think she has ANY personal philosophy which drives her, except that which is politically expedient in order to further her own career and keep the Conservative party in a dominant position. She's definitely more of political plotter and strategist than an ideologue. No passion, and would change her mantras in a beat if circumstances were to change. I think many in the Conservative party would laugh at the notion that Cameron was even 'right', let alone "very far right", which he certainly wasn't. This is the man who (to his credit imo) abolished Labour's ID card scheme and passed 0.7% GDP foreign aid and equal marriage into law. I agree that May is a mystery at present and has appeared to change position, but there have been Prime Ministers before who had (ahem) flexible political positions and turned out to be good and popular national managers for the times they were in, for example Harold Wilson in the 60s.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Apr 20, 2017 19:17:42 GMT
Don't let Cameron's centrist rhetoric fool you for a second, he was, in recent British domestic terms, of the very far right, he and George Osborne made the systematic destruction of the welfare state their number one priority. The fact that they just weren't very competent fiscally or engaged in much foreign policy shouldn't blind one to the fact that these guys were ideologically driven. Theresa May is just a cipher, I don't think think she has ANY personal philosophy which drives her, except that which is politically expedient in order to further her own career and keep the Conservative party in a dominant position. She's definitely more of political plotter and strategist than an ideologue. No passion, and would change her mantras in a beat if circumstances were to change. I think many in the Conservative party would laugh at the notion that Cameron was even 'right', let alone "very far right", which he certainly wasn't. This is the man who (to his credit imo) abolished Labour's ID card scheme and passed 0.7% GDP foreign aid and equal marriage into law. I agree that May is a mystery at present and has appeared to change position, but there have been Prime Ministers before who had (ahem) flexible political positions and turned out to be good and popular national managers for the times they were in, for example Harold Wilson in the 60s. They're seriously regretting the ID scheme now that Brexit is happening, and whatever about foreign aid the equal marriage act was going to happen with or without Cameron, despite the loons in his party.
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Post by jasonward on Apr 20, 2017 20:45:21 GMT
British Politics fascinate me. What is the difference between Labor and Lib Dems though? They're both center-left parties right? Ha. Well, you would think that. Lib Dems are ironically meant to be 2/3 more right right wing, but that's beginning to change, really. Er? Traditionally, and by that I mean for the last 70 years or so, The Conservative and Unionist Party has been right of centre and a bit, The Liberal Party were prior to the 2nd World War the party held government when the Conservatives did not and were left of centre, post 2nd Word War The Labour Party gained support effectively taking away the support The Liberals had, and for a while were quite radically left wing, and created with the Conservatives what is (and was) known as The Post War Consensus which effectively on a global scale cemented the UK as a soft left country. In 1979 Margaret Thatcher came to power as head of the Conservatives and rejected The Post War Consensus and introduced many policies which are now seen as mainstream Conservative world wide, but which at the time were quite radical. During this time The Labour Party went into a period of internal fighting, and The Social Democratic Party formed from the split, wanting to offer an alternative to the increasing right wing nature of the Conservatives and left wing nature of The Labour Party. The Labour Party during the late 80's and early 90's got a hold of itself, expelled a number of the more radical left in its membership (the insurgent movement called Militant Tendancy) and set off in search of the middle ground of politics. This left Social Democrats with declining membership and reason detre and they after long period of co-operation merged with The Liberal Party to form The Liberal Democrat Party. Labour won several elections in a row, forcing The Conservatives to rethink and they too headed off at least in part for the middle ground and even Green Party territoty. The middle ground now being very crowded, the Liberal Democrats moved a little to the left. It should be noted that in 80's and early 90's the Scottish National Party also transformed itself from a fairly right wing party to a firmly left wing one, enabling it to make inroads in what had previously been very strong Labour voter base in Scotland. Following the financial crisis Labour ran out of steam and ideas, and slowly, really quite slowly wondered off into the twilight of not knowing if it's a centrist party or left wing, with strong elements of the membership occupying both grounds and the party failing to occupy much. This has led to another, in my mind at least, insurgent movement inside Labour called "Momentum" who are largely responsible for giving us the current Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn, but whose MP's mostly despise. The Conservative Party have lurched to the right again, I don't think they were ever really comfortable in the guise of a middle ground party. Where this leaves the Liberal Democrats... I really don't know. Where this leaves the UK, is that for the time being, it seems almost impossible that any party other than the Conservatives can win power when it comes to Westminster. And the UK seems more divided to me that at any previous point in my lifetime, whilst Thatcher was divisive along social and political lines, I always thought that she thought she was running the UK for the good of the UK, whereas now, it seems everyone just want's whats best for their patch of the country and screw the rest of them. I've missed out loads of details, and even things like the coalition Liberal/Conservative government we had, but I think I covered the essence.
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Post by sherlock on Apr 20, 2017 22:31:54 GMT
Traditionally, and by that I mean for the last 70 years or so, The Conservative and Unionist Party has been right of centre and a bit, The Liberal Party were prior to the 2nd World War the party held government when the Conservatives did not and were left of centre, post 2nd Word War The Labour Party gained support effectively taking away the support The Liberals had, and for a while were quite radically left wing, and created with the Conservatives what is (and was) known as The Post War Consensus which effectively on a global scale cemented the UK as a soft left country. In 1979 Margaret Thatcher came to power as head of the Conservatives and rejected The Post War Consensus and introduced many policies which are now seen as mainstream Conservative world wide, but which at the time were quite radical. During this time The Labour Party went into a period of internal fighting, and The Social Democratic Party formed from the split, wanting to offer an alternative to the increasing right wing nature of the Conservatives and left wing nature of The Labour Party. The Labour Party during the late 80's and early 90's got a hold of itself, expelled a number of the more radical left in its membership (the insurgent movement called Militant Tendancy) and set off in search of the middle ground of politics. This left Social Democrats with declining membership and reason detre and they after long period of co-operation merged with The Liberal Party to form The Liberal Democrat Party. Labour won several elections in a row, forcing The Conservatives to rethink and they too headed off at least in part for the middle ground and even Green Party territoty. The middle ground now being very crowded, the Liberal Democrats moved a little to the left. It should be noted that in 80's and early 90's the Scottish National Party also transformed itself from a fairly right wing party to a firmly left wing one, enabling it to make inroads in what had previously been very strong Labour voter base in Scotland. Following the financial crisis Labour ran out of steam and ideas, and slowly, really quite slowly wondered off into the twilight of not knowing if it's a centrist party or left wing, with strong elements of the membership occupying both grounds and the party failing to occupy much. This has led to another, in my mind at least, insurgent movement inside Labour called "Momentum" who are largely responsible for giving us the current Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn, but whose MP's mostly despise. The Conservative Party have lurched to the right again, I don't think they were ever really comfortable in the guise of a middle ground party. Where this leaves the Liberal Democrats... I really don't know. Where this leaves the UK, is that for the time being, it seems almost impossible that any party other than the Conservatives can win power when it comes to Westminster. And the UK seems more divided to me that at any previous point in my lifetime, whilst Thatcher was divisive along social and political lines, I always thought that she thought she was running the UK for the good of the UK, whereas now, it seems everyone just want's whats best for their patch of the country and screw the rest of them. I've missed out loads of details, and even things like the coalition Liberal/Conservative government we had, but I think I covered the essence. Well the Conservatives haven't gone back as far right as they used to be. The old 'nasty party' Tories are largely gone, and what's left is actually far more centrist than it used to be. Certainly conservatives in US for instance would struggle to recognise the Conservative Party as a truly conservative movement. It is going more to right in the last year than it did under Cameron, probably in a concentrated effort to finally kill UKIP, but on the whole it has moved more to centre in the last decade. Labour's current identity crisis you cite I would suggest is an exact repeat of the previous one in the 1980s. Labour has always struggled with being a coalition of a variety of left wing movements, in most other countries it would be two separate parties. Inevitably it would have clashes, and defeat at the hands of the Tories is exactly the same catalyst that kicked them off in the 1980s and now the 2010s. Labour seems doomed to these endless ideological round-robins. The Liberal Democrats are annoying if you want to study ideologies. Some of their policies are more liberal than Labour (Drugs policies, federalism to name two examples) whereas economically they are very centre, and the coalition proved they are accepting of some Tory ideas too. The Lib Dems have struggled to carve out an identity for themselves, their best attempt was in 2010 as a party for young people. And that didn't exactly work out. (Students it turns out are among the least forgiving voters). There is evidence of that rift healing a little (Student rag The Tab recently ran an article essentially exonerating them), but I'm doubtful they'll see a big comeback this election.
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Post by jasonward on Apr 21, 2017 22:10:26 GMT
Traditionally, and by that I mean for the last 70 years or so, The Conservative and Unionist Party has been right of centre and a bit, The Liberal Party were prior to the 2nd World War the party held government when the Conservatives did not and were left of centre, post 2nd Word War The Labour Party gained support effectively taking away the support The Liberals had, and for a while were quite radically left wing, and created with the Conservatives what is (and was) known as The Post War Consensus which effectively on a global scale cemented the UK as a soft left country. In 1979 Margaret Thatcher came to power as head of the Conservatives and rejected The Post War Consensus and introduced many policies which are now seen as mainstream Conservative world wide, but which at the time were quite radical. During this time The Labour Party went into a period of internal fighting, and The Social Democratic Party formed from the split, wanting to offer an alternative to the increasing right wing nature of the Conservatives and left wing nature of The Labour Party. The Labour Party during the late 80's and early 90's got a hold of itself, expelled a number of the more radical left in its membership (the insurgent movement called Militant Tendancy) and set off in search of the middle ground of politics. This left Social Democrats with declining membership and reason detre and they after long period of co-operation merged with The Liberal Party to form The Liberal Democrat Party. Labour won several elections in a row, forcing The Conservatives to rethink and they too headed off at least in part for the middle ground and even Green Party territoty. The middle ground now being very crowded, the Liberal Democrats moved a little to the left. It should be noted that in 80's and early 90's the Scottish National Party also transformed itself from a fairly right wing party to a firmly left wing one, enabling it to make inroads in what had previously been very strong Labour voter base in Scotland. Following the financial crisis Labour ran out of steam and ideas, and slowly, really quite slowly wondered off into the twilight of not knowing if it's a centrist party or left wing, with strong elements of the membership occupying both grounds and the party failing to occupy much. This has led to another, in my mind at least, insurgent movement inside Labour called "Momentum" who are largely responsible for giving us the current Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn, but whose MP's mostly despise. The Conservative Party have lurched to the right again, I don't think they were ever really comfortable in the guise of a middle ground party. Where this leaves the Liberal Democrats... I really don't know. Where this leaves the UK, is that for the time being, it seems almost impossible that any party other than the Conservatives can win power when it comes to Westminster. And the UK seems more divided to me that at any previous point in my lifetime, whilst Thatcher was divisive along social and political lines, I always thought that she thought she was running the UK for the good of the UK, whereas now, it seems everyone just want's whats best for their patch of the country and screw the rest of them. I've missed out loads of details, and even things like the coalition Liberal/Conservative government we had, but I think I covered the essence. Well the Conservatives haven't gone back as far right as they used to be. The old 'nasty party' Tories are largely gone, and what's left is actually far more centrist than it used to be. Certainly conservatives in US for instance would struggle to recognise the Conservative Party as a truly conservative movement. It is going more to right in the last year than it did under Cameron, probably in a concentrated effort to finally kill UKIP, but on the whole it has moved more to centre in the last decade. Labour's current identity crisis you cite I would suggest is an exact repeat of the previous one in the 1980s. Labour has always struggled with being a coalition of a variety of left wing movements, in most other countries it would be two separate parties. Inevitably it would have clashes, and defeat at the hands of the Tories is exactly the same catalyst that kicked them off in the 1980s and now the 2010s. Labour seems doomed to these endless ideological round-robins. The Liberal Democrats are annoying if you want to study ideologies. Some of their policies are more liberal than Labour (Drugs policies, federalism to name two examples) whereas economically they are very centre, and the coalition proved they are accepting of some Tory ideas too. The Lib Dems have struggled to carve out an identity for themselves, their best attempt was in 2010 as a party for young people. And that didn't exactly work out. (Students it turns out are among the least forgiving voters). There is evidence of that rift healing a little (Student rag The Tab recently ran an article essentially exonerating them), but I'm doubtful they'll see a big comeback this election. I too would say the current identity crisis of The Labour Party is indeed the same as the one in the 1980's. I was somewhat active in The Labour Party at that time and more so into the mid 90's and watching Momentum and Corbyn I just keep feeling deja vu, I keep thinking "didn't we already do this?" May I ask sherlock do you study or perhaps teach politics?
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Post by sherlock on Apr 21, 2017 23:07:14 GMT
Well the Conservatives haven't gone back as far right as they used to be. The old 'nasty party' Tories are largely gone, and what's left is actually far more centrist than it used to be. Certainly conservatives in US for instance would struggle to recognise the Conservative Party as a truly conservative movement. It is going more to right in the last year than it did under Cameron, probably in a concentrated effort to finally kill UKIP, but on the whole it has moved more to centre in the last decade. Labour's current identity crisis you cite I would suggest is an exact repeat of the previous one in the 1980s. Labour has always struggled with being a coalition of a variety of left wing movements, in most other countries it would be two separate parties. Inevitably it would have clashes, and defeat at the hands of the Tories is exactly the same catalyst that kicked them off in the 1980s and now the 2010s. Labour seems doomed to these endless ideological round-robins. The Liberal Democrats are annoying if you want to study ideologies. Some of their policies are more liberal than Labour (Drugs policies, federalism to name two examples) whereas economically they are very centre, and the coalition proved they are accepting of some Tory ideas too. The Lib Dems have struggled to carve out an identity for themselves, their best attempt was in 2010 as a party for young people. And that didn't exactly work out. (Students it turns out are among the least forgiving voters). There is evidence of that rift healing a little (Student rag The Tab recently ran an article essentially exonerating them), but I'm doubtful they'll see a big comeback this election. I too would say the current identity crisis of The Labour Party is indeed the same as the one in the 1980's. I was somewhat active in The Labour Party at that time and more so into the mid 90's and watching Momentum and Corbyn I just keep feeling deja vu, I keep thinking "didn't we already do this?" May I ask sherlock do you study or perhaps teach politics? I study politics and international relations. Needless to say it's been a interesting few months to be on that course.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Apr 21, 2017 23:30:27 GMT
I too would say the current identity crisis of The Labour Party is indeed the same as the one in the 1980's. I was somewhat active in The Labour Party at that time and more so into the mid 90's and watching Momentum and Corbyn I just keep feeling deja vu, I keep thinking "didn't we already do this?" Kinda. I'm not sure which version of Labour you support but enough people seem to think that it's worth doing again. Not that it's a history rhyming thing but that neo-Blairite politics are not what Labour should be. Realistically this wasn't a bad thing, but unlike before the contextual events are toxic, what with Brexit, the collapse of almost any party not SNP in Scotland, and so on, and the party doesn't have that time to sort itself out like it should. I'd like to be proven wrong in the coming weeks and see the PLP stop dicking around and causing chaos. Yes, I know Corbyn needs to be a better leader but now is the time to rally around him, and for him to meet others part way at least. Frankly I'd love to see a Labour government come June, even a minority one but unless they pull together that won't happen. Anyway...
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Post by jasonward on Apr 22, 2017 2:39:50 GMT
I too would say the current identity crisis of The Labour Party is indeed the same as the one in the 1980's. I was somewhat active in The Labour Party at that time and more so into the mid 90's and watching Momentum and Corbyn I just keep feeling deja vu, I keep thinking "didn't we already do this?" Kinda. I'm not sure which version of Labour you support but enough people seem to think that it's worth doing again. Not that it's a history rhyming thing but that neo-Blairite politics are not what Labour should be. Realistically this wasn't a bad thing, but unlike before the contextual events are toxic, what with Brexit, the collapse of almost any party not SNP in Scotland, and so on, and the party doesn't have that time to sort itself out like it should. I'd like to be proven wrong in the coming weeks and see the PLP stop dicking around and causing chaos. Yes, I know Corbyn needs to be a better leader but now is the time to rally around him, and for him to meet others part way at least. Frankly I'd love to see a Labour government come June, even a minority one but unless they pull together that won't happen. Anyway... Perhaps I am small personification of Labours own internal camps, on one hand my thoughts and wishes would often go for a more radical left, but the realist in me, wants a leftist party that is electable, I see little point in wishing and holding out for something the electorate are not going to vote for. I loved what Blair did for The Labour Party in terms of making it attractive and electable, but my support was always qualified by "at least its not the Conservatives". Where I am these days, I really don't know, I'm probably going to vote Labour in this election, but thats more because they seem the best party in my area to oppose The Conservatives, I'd vote Liberal Democrat if I thought they could win in my area, or green, or basically any party that is not Conservative or racist or little Englanders. But I suspect I will be voting for a lost cause.
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Post by number13 on Apr 22, 2017 9:35:36 GMT
I think many in the Conservative party would laugh at the notion that Cameron was even 'right', let alone "very far right", which he certainly wasn't. This is the man who (to his credit imo) abolished Labour's ID card scheme and passed 0.7% GDP foreign aid and equal marriage into law. I agree that May is a mystery at present and has appeared to change position, but there have been Prime Ministers before who had (ahem) flexible political positions and turned out to be good and popular national managers for the times they were in, for example Harold Wilson in the 60s. They're seriously regretting the ID scheme now that Brexit is happening, and whatever about foreign aid the equal marriage act was going to happen with or without Cameron, despite the loons in his party. Why does Brexit mean scrapping the ID scheme is or should now be regretted? (Serious question.) I hadn't heard that it was regretted. It was and remains an illiberal idea. On equal marriage, he was the PM, he chose put it to Parliament against the - 'traditionalists' - in his own party as you say; without Cameron the law would not have been changed.
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