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Post by theotherjosh on Oct 13, 2017 16:08:36 GMT
This felt like a very Marc Platt story (and that's a good thing). Complicated, layered and nuanced.
I deliberately avoided any advance publicity for the story and I had no knowledge of Lady Clara as an actual historical figure. It made me think of the Graceless Stories, where Amy's name was changed so listeners wouldn't confuse her with the then current television companion.
I don't think I'd want a steady diet of pure historicals, but they're very refreshing in moderation. One or two a year is just perfect and that seems to be what we're getting from Big Finish.
Slavery can be a touchy subject, but I think it was generally handled well here. In particular, I was worried about some kind of "White Savior" trope, but the story manages to avoid that.
Bonus points for the use of fewmets. I was only familiar with the word through the second Wrinkle in Time book and didn't realize it has a real-world use until I looked it up after hearing it in this story.
Great supporting cast, particularly Mrs. Middlemint. I think I'm going to have to listen to it again soon in order to be able to appreciate everything it offers.
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Post by barnabaslives on Oct 13, 2017 20:06:07 GMT
This felt like a very Marc Platt story (and that's a good thing). Complicated, layered and nuanced... I think I'm going to have to listen to it again soon in order to be able to appreciate everything it offers. Same here, and that's also the way it was with Spare Parts if not with other Platt stories as well - of course a Cybermen origin story is getting my undivided attention but even then I don't think I properly appreciated that highly acclaimed and deserving work until the second listen. By now I'm giving any story by Marc Platt all the attention I can muster, but I think the same is going to hold true here too about it taking more than one listen to really appreciate it - it registered as a great and very enjoyable story instantly, but I just have that sense that more went into it than I've gotten out of it so far. Some of the best stories are that way sometimes... Actually, I'd have gladly accepted any story that heralded the return of Sixth Doctor season, so I can't help but feel a bit spoiled that it is such a good one. :-)
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Post by relativetime on Oct 14, 2017 2:59:05 GMT
This one started pretty slow it seemed, but by the end of Part 2 I was fully absorbed in the story. I imagine this is one story that will get better and better each time I listen to it.
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Post by elkawho on Oct 14, 2017 3:16:05 GMT
I seem to be an outlier here (no pun intended). While I did enjoy this story, I didn't love it. I thought some of it was treading old material and way too preachy, but then how do you write a story about slavery that ISN'T preachy? I didn't like that the Doctor went off for hot chocolate with Mrs. Middlemint (couldn't remember her name, thanks theotherjosh) leaving his companions alone with some pretty sketchy characters. And while Flip is dressed like an 18th c. woman, she is nothing of the sort. She's headstrong and scrappy and should not have been the damsel in distress that she was made out to be here. I had a hard time really connecting to any of the story. On the plus side, I loved Constance in this one and she and Flip made a great team. And Colin was terrific as always. I was just in the city of Bath 2 months ago, so it was great to hear it being used in an audio. I enjoy historicals in general, and it's always nice to hear one and learn something. I do wonder if I'll change my mind on second listen, as is usually the case. But that will have to wait. On to Two for tomorrow.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2017 4:39:02 GMT
I seem to be an outlier here (no pun intended). While I did enjoy this story, I didn't love it. I thought some of it was treading old material and way too preachy, but then how do you write a story about slavery that ISN'T preachy? I didn't like that the Doctor went off for hot chocolate with Mrs. Middlemint (couldn't remember her name, thanks theotherjosh ) leaving his companions alone with some pretty sketchy characters. And while Flip is dressed like an 18th c. woman, she is nothing of the sort. She's headstrong and scrappy and should not have been the damsel in distress that she was made out to be here. I had a hard time really connecting to any of the story. On the plus side, I loved Constance in this one and she and Flip made a great team. And Colin was terrific as always. I was just in the city of Bath 2 months ago, so it was great to hear it being used in an audio. I enjoy historicals in general, and it's always nice to hear one and learn something. I do wonder if I'll change my mind on second listen, as is usually the case. But that will have to wait. On to Two for tomorrow. To be fair to the characterisation of Flip here, most of the time she's being manhandled into a variety of cages by force rather than just bowing her head and walking in. Barbara frequently ended up a prisoner, but not through any passivity, just through sheer brute force (her multiple captures by El-Akir in The Crusade, for instance). The most jarring thing about Flip for me was at the beginning with her dumping acronyms into common language. It was a very "Yes, this is how the youth speak, right?" set of moments. It's well-trodden ground sure, but I think it's ground worth retreading, if nothing else then just to think about. What struck me more than anything was how naturalistic the story is compared to its peers. It's very quiet. No one's playing up their part and it's all treated with the utmost severity.
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Post by fingersmash on Oct 14, 2017 12:22:19 GMT
I seem to be an outlier here (no pun intended). While I did enjoy this story, I didn't love it. I thought some of it was treading old material and way too preachy, but then how do you write a story about slavery that ISN'T preachy? I didn't like that the Doctor went off for hot chocolate with Mrs. Middlemint (couldn't remember her name, thanks theotherjosh ) leaving his companions alone with some pretty sketchy characters. And while Flip is dressed like an 18th c. woman, she is nothing of the sort. She's headstrong and scrappy and should not have been the damsel in distress that she was made out to be here. I had a hard time really connecting to any of the story. On the plus side, I loved Constance in this one and she and Flip made a great team. And Colin was terrific as always. I was just in the city of Bath 2 months ago, so it was great to hear it being used in an audio. I enjoy historicals in general, and it's always nice to hear one and learn something. I do wonder if I'll change my mind on second listen, as is usually the case. But that will have to wait. On to Two for tomorrow. Was Flip a damsel in distress? She got kidnapped and all but she was straight up not having it. If anyone was the damsel, Lady Clara was the damsel.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2017 15:41:58 GMT
Well, this was all rather joyful. I know what theotherjosh means when he says this is 'very Marc Platt.' Indeed it is, and that's a very good thing. When he is on form, Marc can produce some magical moments. The inclusion and revelation of Lady Clara is one such moment, and the Doctor's relationship with Mrs Middlemint is another. Full of incident which cries out for another listening, this only disappoints in fleeting moments. Firstly, it threatens to be a little 'preachy' from time to time - sometimes from the Doctor, who in his Sixth incarnation is hardly without flaws himself! Secondly, the occasional 'comedy music' - a personal bugbear of mine - is something I could have done without. And yet everything else is so carefully written and cleverly played, that ultimately, it's thought provoking and great fun. A mention too for Flip and Mrs Clarke - as mentioned in the extras, they are charming together. Is it partly because they are relatively new to Doctor Who audios? I ask this because the recent pairing of Mel and Ace also involves terrific actresses, but somehow the relationship between them isn't as successful as it might be. Just my opinion of course!
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Post by number13 on Oct 14, 2017 16:20:40 GMT
I'm writing a mini-review (yes I know you are all holding your breath for it ) but in the meantime the interesting comments on this thread meant I couldn't wait to contribute! First things first: brilliant, thank you Marc Platt! 5* (There, that's the important bit.) For me this is two story styles cleverly combined - the serious historical story of the slave trade and the 'Restoration comedy' surrounding 'Lady Clara' - exactly as 'The Romans' and 'The Reign of Terror' combined serious and farcical strands and scenes. I thought the lighter side of the story was clearly Sheridan-esque (I think even some of the character names had links) and I was chuffed to hear Marc Platt mention the playwright on the interview tracks. Was it 'preachy'? Well, a Calvinist abolitionist character was bound to be preachy - Rev Naylor was a preacher. A devout Christian like so many anti-slavery campaigners including William Wilberforce (who Constance mentions), a wealthy Tory MP, socially and politically distant from Constance's Calvinist friend but part of the same wide alliance for freedom. The Doctor leaving Flip and Constance at the public ball should have been safe enough - it was one of the places where respectable ladies could meet and mingle with a wide circle. Of course they both got into different kinds of trouble, but this is 'Doctor Who' and that's what companions do, especially in the historicals! Flip's abduction is a vile and oppressive act when you consider the bare facts - but if you don't want to partly turn it in into social comedy, you don't have 'Lady Clara' abducted with her or have her abductor ( Craven by name) played perfectly in a 'heightened' style. He's a rich, cowardly brat who won't accept 'no' and genuinely thinks he is a marital offer Flip can't refuse (he's got a lot to learn). Flip does escape once and is only caught again because she doesn't understand the social structures of the time. And of course we know her story will have a happy ending and Craven ends up in the sea as he deserves. (And he probably couldn't swim because in 1756 hardly anyone could - that's why they walk in the baths and why the Doctor had to rescue the dog. So the Doctor's casual comment that someone would pick Craven up is careless to say the least - they would have to have been very quick... ) And if he had got Flip to the plantation (assuming she didn't jump ship in West Africa and escape up-country with the locals - this is Flip after all) he would probably have woken one day to find Flip gone, horses gone, money gone, bribed crew and ship gone and a full-scale slave revolt on his plantation... The Doctor chooses his companions well. Finally, the Doctor taking wonderful Mrs. Middlemint to a coffee house contained what I think was a moment of continuity genius by Marc Platt. They went to a coffee house but he bought two cups of hot chocolate. Why? Because {Spoiler} the last time the Doctor had a mildly romantic encounter with a lady in the historicals, it was with the aztec lady Cameca a long time ago in Mexico - and he made them two bowls of hot cocoa... old habits Doctor, you old charmer!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2017 1:00:21 GMT
Finally, the Doctor taking wonderful Mrs. Middlemint to a coffee house contained what I think was a moment of continuity genius by Marc Platt. They went to a coffee house but he bought two cups of hot chocolate. Why? Because the last time the Doctor had a mildly romantic encounter with a lady in the historicals, it was with the aztec lady Cameca a long time ago in Mexico - and he made them two bowls of hot cocoa... old habits Doctor, you old charmer! Oh, hey, yeah. And depending on how you view your BF continuity, Mrs. Middlemint could easily remind him of a former companion who was also fond of chocolate: dear old Evelyn.
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Post by omega on Oct 15, 2017 4:06:26 GMT
Another angle to the hot chocolate scene, the conversation topic the Doctor offers about the source of the chocolate reminds me of of the scene in Remembrance of the Daleks where the Seventh Doctor ponders the moral price of the sugar in his tea.
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Post by IndieMacUser on Oct 15, 2017 8:46:04 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2017 17:29:30 GMT
The physical copy of this still has the apostrophe in the wrong place on the sidebar. Maybe they'll send out replacements like with the typo on Original Sin's spine.
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Oct 16, 2017 18:03:52 GMT
The physical copy of this still has the apostrophe in the wrong place on the sidebar. Maybe they'll send out replacements like with the typo on Original Sin's spine. What Apostrophe?...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2017 20:20:50 GMT
That should, of course, be comma, not apostrophe. STUPID.
But the cover says: Colin Baker , Miranda Raison and Lisa Greenwood in
When it should say: Colin Baker, Miranda Raison and Lisa Greenwood in
Savvy?
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Post by mark687 on Oct 16, 2017 20:29:53 GMT
That should, of course, be comma, not apostrophe. STUPID. But the cover says: Colin Baker , Miranda Raison and Lisa Greenwood in When it should say: Colin Baker, Miranda Raison and Lisa Greenwood in Savvy? Yes its oddly spaced hard to spot when seen on darker backgrounds, people found the same thing with the cover for Time in Office
Regards
mark687
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Post by number13 on Oct 16, 2017 21:24:44 GMT
That should, of course, be comma, not apostrophe. STUPID. But the cover says: Colin Baker , Miranda Raison and Lisa Greenwood in When it should say: Colin Baker, Miranda Raison and Lisa Greenwood in Savvy? Yes its oddly spaced hard to spot when seen on darker backgrounds, people found the same thing with the cover for Time in Office
Regards
mark687
I thought it was just another star in the background artwork! Yes, I suppose there should be a comma after 'Peter Davison' on the 'Time in Office' cover, it's a list. But when the names are arranged one per line, I'd go wild with the grammar rebels and leave it out. (Shocking, but true. )
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melkur
Chancellery Guard
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Post by melkur on Oct 16, 2017 22:27:38 GMT
After listening to the first half on Wednesday, I'd have told you that this story was... Alright. After finishing it Saturday, I have to say I positively loved it (even if I got some weird looks from my colleagues in the break room as I n'aaawed in places & applauded the ending)...
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Post by elkawho on Oct 17, 2017 13:20:59 GMT
I guess I should listen to it again. I may have just not been in the mood.
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Post by glutamodo on Oct 17, 2017 13:51:13 GMT
I listened yesterday, thought it was pretty good. Not great but good, I voted 4 stars. Nice to have a Historical-only story, where there still are monsters, but they are human (Clara is more a ginormous pet, than a monster)
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Post by mrperson on Oct 17, 2017 17:34:17 GMT
Very good, though I put it closer to 4 than to 5.
It certainly is refreshing to have had two stories in a row where we aren't dealing with some massive threat to a planet (at a minimum) or some villain(s) scheming for domination of anything.
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