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Post by Digi on May 9, 2019 13:23:40 GMT
I'd like to think that a 'middle path' platform and candidate could rally things, if they took a 'remaining in the EU is the best choice for us, but we recognize there are some problems and this is how we'd like to address them' position.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on May 10, 2019 19:49:46 GMT
Was thinking last night about what might happen if a 2nd referendum resulted in a Remain victory.
Once the dust had settled and the initial howls of outrage and betrayal subsided, would brexiteers just give the whole thing up as a bad job or would they campaign for a 3rd referendum?
The current brexit fatigue which leads some to say "just get on with it" could quickly turn to "let's not go there again". Would a lot of people who had voted leave be breathing a sigh of relief? or would the brexiteers grow ever louder and harder to ignore?
Would Nigel Farage's new brexit party be rendered pointless and fade away, with Farage rightly despised as the snake oil salesman he is? Change UK wold probably fade away or be absorbed into the Liberal democrats I think the next tory leader would have to be a hardline Eurosceptic who had campaigned for leave in the 2nd referendum and make quite a nuisance of him/herself in the EU in order to keep the ERG types on board and prevent a split.
The big question would be whether Farage's brexit party made any impact at the next general election, which could reshape British politics if it did, or if it just faded way and poltics went back to business as usual.
If we're lucky the Tories will shatter as a cohesive party for ever.
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Post by sherlock on May 10, 2019 20:00:29 GMT
I'd like to think that a 'middle path' platform and candidate could rally things, if they took a 'remaining in the EU is the best choice for us, but we recognize there are some problems and this is how we'd like to address them' position. This has always been my issue with the parties advocating second referendum/remain; they never seem to come up with anything to actually address the reasons Brexit came about in the first place. Un-doing Brexit (however they manage that) without dealing with those problems is just kicking the can down the road and laying fertile ground for populists in the future.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on May 11, 2019 3:01:49 GMT
I'd like to think that a 'middle path' platform and candidate could rally things, if they took a 'remaining in the EU is the best choice for us, but we recognize there are some problems and this is how we'd like to address them' position. This has always been my issue with the parties advocating second referendum/remain; they never seem to come up with anything to actually address the reasons Brexit came about in the first place. Un-doing Brexit (however they manage that) without dealing with those problems is just kicking the can down the road and laying fertile ground for populists in the future. Address what problem? That the majority vote for Brexit was inspired by literal nonsense emotive slogans that shifted the blame of years of Blue Tory and Red Tory abandonment of the good governance of the UK onto the EU? Which while it has problems, plenty of them, was mostly a force for betterment across the UK and Europe? That millionaire disaster capitalists funded Leave in order to Gordon Gecko the country? All the issues will still be there, Brexit or not, and everything needs fixing. And unfortunately leaving the EU won't help. The advocacy for a second referendum/remain is simple: we were in (technically still are) the EU, we know what the benefits are, we actually do know what the downsides are (and we know they're not what Leave claims) and you can't fix those from outside. The real abandoned demographic that voted to leave? They felt abandoned by the parties because they pretty much were. Brexit is eating the UK's political discourse and actual change for the better is impossible until it is dealt with, one way or the other. Grassroots socialism under Corbyn might have worked at any other time than now, but Brexit Brexit Brexit etc. When an entire country decides to shoot itself in the foot then you have to wonder. Sigh.
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Post by sherlock on May 21, 2019 15:35:53 GMT
May’s final offer. I suspect it probably won’t be enough.
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
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Post by lidar2 on May 22, 2019 13:11:08 GMT
Things seems to have accelerated again. Some commentators have been saying it's no deal or no brexit for months, it appears they may now be right.
Unless the brexiteers get so spooked by the likelihood of a 2nd referendum that they switch to backing May's deal in sufficient numbers to pass it ... but I don't see it. We got fairly close to that scenario on MV3 in March when Boris and Jacob voted for it, but that prospect is now receding.
If it ends up no deal vs. no brexit, then I think we will end up with no brexit. So maybe, just maybe, there are grounds for optimism.
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Post by doctorkernow on May 22, 2019 21:14:08 GMT
Hello again.
Euro elections. I shall not be voting for any particular party. I am fed up with the whole lot of them. I shall vote for an independent candidate who actually lives or comes from Cornwall.
As far as I could see, none of the existing MEPs for the south-west came from Cornwall. It is either that or not vote. I can understand the anger and sheer frustration with the political classes. The number of spoiled ballots during the council elections was evidence of this.
It will be interesting to see what UK voters decide to do. I really hope Farage does not run rampant. I suspect he will. It is entirely possible that equally populist parties will do well too.
As for Brexit, who knows.... I just keep watching The Last Leg on Fridays at 10:00 on Channel 4 and All 4. Worth watching if only for Adam Hill's Brexit beard. It is quite extraordinary!!!
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Post by sherlock on May 24, 2019 9:13:36 GMT
Theresa May has given in. Conservative leadership contest will now decide the next PM and the outcome of Brexit.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on May 24, 2019 9:21:56 GMT
Theresa May has given in. Conservative leadership contest will now decide the next PM and the outcome of Brexit. Two hopes, one, it isn't Johnson, the mendacious bag of manure; two, time for the Tory party to die. You know, in one way I'd want Jacob Rees-Mogg to become leader of the Tories, just so people can finally (except for the wilfully blind) see what the majority of the party really is. And then time for it to die. I've long gone beyond the fallacy of "I vote for X, even though their party policies are inimical to the mass of society, because I know them and they're decent", yeah, you're still voting for the party. For me that's the Tories, for others? Take your pick. Why am I ranting about the Tories? Because however useless Labour is right now they didn't start this nonsense. (Just as much to blame for a surge in the vote FOR it in 2016, agreed, but weren't arrogantly stupid enough to call that vote). So they CAN redeem themselves. Lib Dems? A single term in government after the best part of a century? No, they're back to being what they were before 2010. SNP? We know where they stand. The rest of the minority parties? Outside of the DUP's attempt to influence the UK while keeping a foot in the past, there's only so much you can do with a small number of MPs in the nonsense system that is FPTP. UKIP, without Farage? Consigned to the gentrified end of BNP/NF hatemongers. Brexit Party? This is a friendly forum so I'll say nothing right now.
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Post by doctorkernow on May 24, 2019 9:35:13 GMT
Hello again.
Great. So now the most incompetent, power-mad, disagreeable administration since John Major's from 1992-97 get six weeks to choose a new PM. In the mean time, British Steel is going to the wall, no important decisions about the long-term solution to this mess can be made and the uncertainty is making people's lives miserable.
The choice of potential PMs ranges from the buffoonish to the downright chilling. Now is the time for an opposition to get together a package of sensible policies for good of the whole UK.
So that when the election whenever it comes, we hrve an alternative to the negative, neo-liberal, destructive government we have had since 2010.
I do not consider such an opposition exists at present and I do not trust the existing opposition parties to produce anything that gets to the heart of the longterm problems of the country. I'm hoping that a realistic alternative emerges. But I suspect we'll just get more of the same.
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Post by mark687 on May 24, 2019 10:11:04 GMT
"We've hit the Iceberg Captain"
"Excellent now we charge the Rescue ships whatever we like to save us from drowning"
Regards
mark687
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2019 10:25:52 GMT
Hello again. Great. So now the most incompetent, power-mad, disagreeable administration since John Major's from 1992-97 get six weeks to choose a new PM. In the mean time, British Steel is going to the wall, no important decisions about the long-term solution to this mess can be made and the uncertainty is making people's lives miserable. The choice of potential PMs ranges from the buffoonish to the downright chilling. Now is the time for an opposition to get together a package of sensible policies for good of the whole UK. So that when the election whenever it comes, we hrve an alternative to the negative, neo-liberal, destructive government we have had since 2010. I do not consider such an opposition exists at present and I do not trust the existing opposition parties to produce anything that gets to the heart of the longterm problems of the country. I'm hoping that a realistic alternative emerges. But I suspect we'll just get more of the same. Sadly, I think this is true. And let's face it, it'll be Boris. Big bad funny, fluffy, BoJo. The cuddly buffoon who, like a Slitheen, hides a truly ghoulish and self-serving persona behind a carefully constructed mannequin. This prejudiced, caricature will be in charge of the Brexit process. So we can expect no deal, no compromise, no jobs, no respect. Sorry about the negativity, but the future is looking worse than it has looked for a long time.
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Post by whiskeybrewer on May 24, 2019 10:28:20 GMT
Im hearing that a deal was agreed March of last year on Brexit, everyone was okay with it, they said it worked on both sides and May then Torpedoed it saying She didnt like it
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Post by sherlock on May 24, 2019 10:48:52 GMT
Im hearing that a deal was agreed March of last year on Brexit, everyone was okay with it, they said it worked on both sides and May then Torpedoed it saying She didnt like it Was that the one with the border in the Irish Sea? Because the DUP would never have accepted that, so I doubt it would have succeed anyway.
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Post by whiskeybrewer on May 24, 2019 10:59:23 GMT
Im hearing that a deal was agreed March of last year on Brexit, everyone was okay with it, they said it worked on both sides and May then Torpedoed it saying She didnt like it Was that the one with the border in the Irish Sea? Because the DUP would never have accepted that, so I doubt it would have succeed anyway. I dont know if it was that one. But supposedly it was just May who didnt like this particular deal. If i hear more ill let you know
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Post by number13 on May 24, 2019 11:00:32 GMT
And let's face it, it'll be Boris. Big bad funny, fluffy, BoJo. The cuddly buffoon who, like a Slitheen, hides a truly ghoulish and self-serving persona behind a carefully constructed mannequin. This prejudiced, caricature will be in charge of the Brexit process. So we can expect no deal, no compromise, no jobs, no respect. Sorry about the negativity, but the future is looking worse than it has looked for a long time. Brave heart paz! The members do seem to love him but he isn't popular among Conservative MPs and they control who the final two candidates are that members will vote on. (And they have Labour as a current example of what can happen if members get the chance to choose a leader who MPs don't want.)
Personally I would be surprised if he got many MPs' votes beyond the 50/60 of the ERG and probably not all of those. Making him Foreign Secretary so his true ministerial abilities could be seen by all was imo one of May's very few masterstrokes as PM...
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2019 11:20:33 GMT
And let's face it, it'll be Boris. Big bad funny, fluffy, BoJo. The cuddly buffoon who, like a Slitheen, hides a truly ghoulish and self-serving persona behind a carefully constructed mannequin. This prejudiced, caricature will be in charge of the Brexit process. So we can expect no deal, no compromise, no jobs, no respect. Sorry about the negativity, but the future is looking worse than it has looked for a long time. Brave heart paz! The members do seem to love him but he isn't popular among Conservative MPs and they control who the final two candidates are that members will vote on. (And they have Labour as a current example of what can happen if members get the chance to choose a leader who MPs don't want.)
Personally I would be surprised if he got many MPs' votes beyond the 50/60 of the ERG and probably not all of those. Making him Foreign Secretary so his true ministerial abilities could be seen by all was imo one of May's very few masterstrokes as PM... Cheers for that
It seems the view is that 'May was given an impossible job' in delivering Brexit. What worries me is that the 'impossible job' still seems to be going ahead, but with less time, and with the possibility of Coco the Clown stampeding through it all, insulting everyone and driving the poor old UK off the proverbial cliff edge. Again, sorry for the negativity, but ... well, it's one of those days!
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Post by doctorkernow on May 24, 2019 11:35:08 GMT
Hello again.
I am afraid I'm with you Paz, on the negative outlook. While as Number13 correctly states he is not popular with MPs, it could be someone else, but the alternatives are equally bad.
I fear at worst we will have a British Trump. Mr. Brump perhaps? Unfortunately, for the forseeable future we are still stuck fast in the Brexit swamp. The only thing for certain in most of the current government is their lack of principles and determination to hang on to power.
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Post by number13 on May 24, 2019 11:37:14 GMT
Brave heart paz! The members do seem to love him but he isn't popular among Conservative MPs and they control who the final two candidates are that members will vote on. (And they have Labour as a current example of what can happen if members get the chance to choose a leader who MPs don't want.)
Personally I would be surprised if he got many MPs' votes beyond the 50/60 of the ERG and probably not all of those. Making him Foreign Secretary so his true ministerial abilities could be seen by all was imo one of May's very few masterstrokes as PM... Cheers for that
It seems the view is that 'May was given an impossible job' in delivering Brexit. What worries me is that the 'impossible job' still seems to be going ahead, but with less time, and with the possibility of Coco the Clown stampeding through it all, insulting everyone and driving the poor old UK off the proverbial cliff edge. Again, sorry for the negativity, but ... well, it's one of those days!
No apology needed, I'm feeling negative about it all myself tbh! And hoping / trying to convince myself that the next election won't come down to a choice between Kodos and Kang *
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2019 12:19:08 GMT
The parallels between this situation and Vengeance on Varos get ever stronger!
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