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Post by icecreamdf on Nov 10, 2015 21:32:14 GMT
Shunting any TV episode, especially Mcgann's only full length episode, out of continuity is a terrible idea. I'd disagree. McGann, even more than Colin, has been an Audio doctor. We may love him, and cling to that Movie as his sole appearance on TV (outside cameo/minisodes), but that movie causes problems in continuity in so many ways, that can't really be explained satisfactory, or completely, and we're always going to be going back and forth as about it.
So maybe it's time to take a step and invent a new end for the Seventh Doctor, give him a proper end, and McGann a better beginning.
It's a thought, I kind of like it. But it's way out there and probably even less feasible than coming up to a solution that explains away the "Half-Human".
It should be added I despise the "Half-Human" bit. It's lazy and pointless.
Taking an entire episode out of continuity would be setting an awful precedent. There are lots of episodes that I don't like, but I would never suggest they be removed from continuity. If the TV Movie gets removed, what's to stop other less popular stories from being removed? The half-human thing is a minor plot point, so you can ignore it if you want. It wasn't completely pointless in that story, because it was related to the need for a human eye to open the Eye of Harmony. No other TV story has really told us anything about the Doctor's parents, so I don't see why we can't just take what he said at face value. The Doctor's mother is a human. That explains why he loves Earth so much, why his granddaughter has a blatantly human name, and perhaps even why he felt he had to leave Gallifrey.
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Post by randomjc on Nov 10, 2015 21:46:59 GMT
I'd disagree. McGann, even more than Colin, has been an Audio doctor. We may love him, and cling to that Movie as his sole appearance on TV (outside cameo/minisodes), but that movie causes problems in continuity in so many ways, that can't really be explained satisfactory, or completely, and we're always going to be going back and forth as about it.
So maybe it's time to take a step and invent a new end for the Seventh Doctor, give him a proper end, and McGann a better beginning.
It's a thought, I kind of like it. But it's way out there and probably even less feasible than coming up to a solution that explains away the "Half-Human".
It should be added I despise the "Half-Human" bit. It's lazy and pointless.
The Doctor's mother is a human. That explains why he loves Earth so much.I'm sorry for snipping it, but that right there is why I despise it. We don't need an explanation. We had one. It was Ian in 1963, making him a better man. It was time after time finding a people who inspired hope in the galaxy, whether it's Ian, Barbara, Sarah, Jamie, Zoe, The Brigadier, Jo, Liz, Ace, and many more. Humans, who showed great potential, more than his own people ever have. I don't need "I'm half human, so I love these people." He loves those people, because he admires how they helped him become better.
Edit: I can tell I'm getting too emotional. So I'm going to back off and go do something else for a bit. Maybe actually doing real work.
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Post by seeley on Nov 10, 2015 23:27:24 GMT
. But it's way out there and probably even less feasible than coming up to a solution that explains away the "Half-Human". I read Alien Bodies recently, and it describes the Eight Doctor's half-human-ancestry as "retroactive," the implication being that his biodata (a sort of historical-DNA,) has been tampered with. The novel itself provides several candidates for having done so, these being Faction Paradox (a cult with voodoo stylings, devoted to disrupting causality,) himself, and Mr. Qixotl, who is auctioning off what is apparently the 13th Doctor's body, and who may be a later incarnation of Drax . It's quite possible there were others that I missed.
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Post by david on Nov 10, 2015 23:27:39 GMT
Taking an entire episode out of continuity would be setting an awful precedent. There are lots of episodes that I don't like, but I would never suggest they be removed from continuity. If the TV Movie gets removed, what's to stop other less popular stories from being removed? 100%. It would be revionist history and censorship of the worst kind. It would also be massively offensive to people who genuinely like the TV Movie.
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Post by seeley on Nov 10, 2015 23:30:05 GMT
Taking an entire episode out of continuity would be setting an awful precedent. There are lots of episodes that I don't like, but I would never suggest they be removed from continuity. If the TV Movie gets removed, what's to stop other less popular stories from being removed? 100%. It would be revionist history and censorship of the worst kind. It would also be massively offensive to people who genuinely like the TV Movie. Indeed. Any showrunner who attempted it would have his reputation deep-sixed. Let us not forget War of the Daleks (though I'm sure plenty of folks would rather do that.)
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Post by david on Nov 10, 2015 23:30:06 GMT
I'm not expecting the hybrid to be a big reveal of a big-bad or anything (ie. not gonna be "It was Omega all along") but I think it's just calling attention to Clara becoming more...Doctor-ish as the series goes on. She has thought at many points this year she nows best and indeed, THe Doctor has questioned whether she has a death-wish. I think her own hubris leads to her depaerture and The Doctor knows it.
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Post by randomjc on Nov 11, 2015 0:26:34 GMT
Taking an entire episode out of continuity would be setting an awful precedent. There are lots of episodes that I don't like, but I would never suggest they be removed from continuity. If the TV Movie gets removed, what's to stop other less popular stories from being removed? 100%. It would be revionist history and censorship of the worst kind. It would also be massively offensive to people who genuinely like the TV Movie. I love the tv movie. I love Eric roberts overly flamboyance aND just about everything about the movie. But It never feels like Doctor Who to me. It's always a weird offshoot that sticks out like a sore thumb that has created problems that people for decades now, have been trying to solve.
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Post by icecreamdf on Nov 11, 2015 4:00:20 GMT
100%. It would be revionist history and censorship of the worst kind. It would also be massively offensive to people who genuinely like the TV Movie. I love the tv movie. I love Eric roberts overly flamboyance aND just about everything about the movie. But It never feels like Doctor Who to me. It's always a weird offshoot that sticks out like a sore thumb that has created problems that people for decades now, have been trying to solve. It only sticks out because its the only story of its era. Imagine if the New Series never went beyond one episode. Then, Rose would stick out like a sore thumb and feel like something other than Doctor Who. Apart from the half human thing (which doesn't actually contradict anything), it doesn't create any more problems than any other story.
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Nov 11, 2015 9:59:34 GMT
. But it's way out there and probably even less feasible than coming up to a solution that explains away the "Half-Human". I read Alien Bodies recently, and it describes the Eight Doctor's half-human-ancestry as "retroactive," the implication being that his biodata (a sort of historical-DNA,) has been tampered with. The novel itself provides several candidates for having done so, these being Faction Paradox (a cult with voodoo stylings, devoted to disrupting causality,) himself, and Mr. Qixotl, who is auctioning off what is apparently the 13th Doctor's body, and who may be a later incarnation of Drax . It's quite possible there were others that I missed. Not the thirteenth incarnation of You-Know-Who, but their final incarnation. Secondly, Faction Paradox virus from Dust, the eighth Doctor is half-human, and the Doctor has been human from the day he was born. Except, only for the eighth Doctor. The seventh Doctor was loomed, a la Lungbarrow. The virus rewrites his history for kicks and giggles.
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Post by randomjc on Nov 11, 2015 10:29:01 GMT
I love the tv movie. I love Eric roberts overly flamboyance aND just about everything about the movie. But It never feels like Doctor Who to me. It's always a weird offshoot that sticks out like a sore thumb that has created problems that people for decades now, have been trying to solve. It only sticks out because its the only story of its era. Imagine if the New Series never went beyond one episode. Then, Rose would stick out like a sore thumb and feel like something other than Doctor Who. Apart from the half human thing (which doesn't actually contradict anything), it doesn't create any more problems than any other story. Well, besides the Daleks putting the Master on Trial, and letting the Doctor pick him up. The Master being a snake thing. The Master's hypnosis being really wrong. And it sticks out, because the books an audios distance themselves from it. One, because they can't use Grace. Two, it was I'll received at the time rather buried under the rug. It also sticks out because it was an American co-production, and all the follies that causes/creates.
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Post by icecreamdf on Nov 11, 2015 16:35:48 GMT
It only sticks out because its the only story of its era. Imagine if the New Series never went beyond one episode. Then, Rose would stick out like a sore thumb and feel like something other than Doctor Who. Apart from the half human thing (which doesn't actually contradict anything), it doesn't create any more problems than any other story. Well, besides the Daleks putting the Master on Trial, and letting the Doctor pick him up. The Master being a snake thing. The Master's hypnosis being really wrong. And it sticks out, because the books an audios distance themselves from it. One, because they can't use Grace. Two, it was I'll received at the time rather buried under the rug. It also sticks out because it was an American co-production, and all the follies that causes/creates. I don't think the books and audios really distance themselves from it. The books and audios have come up with explanations for many of the things you just mentioned.
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Post by randomjc on Nov 11, 2015 17:21:11 GMT
Well, besides the Daleks putting the Master on Trial, and letting the Doctor pick him up. The Master being a snake thing. The Master's hypnosis being really wrong. And it sticks out, because the books an audios distance themselves from it. One, because they can't use Grace. Two, it was I'll received at the time rather buried under the rug. It also sticks out because it was an American co-production, and all the follies that causes/creates. I don't think the books and audios really distance themselves from it. The books and audios have come up with explanations for many of the things you just mentioned. Having not read many books, honestly, I've seen no mention of the events of the movie, or explaining any of the Master inconsistencies. And having listened to most of the Eighth Doctor BF Audios, can say that I don't recall any reference to the events being mentioned, or explanations for The master.
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Post by jasonward on Nov 11, 2015 17:24:56 GMT
It has only been it seems to me since the revival that The Doctor seems to reference or talk about stories past, not mentioning events the TV movie is not distancing, although it could be characterised as sweeping under the rug, but then so much of Who must be seen in the same light, how many other TV episodes have never been mentioned again?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2015 17:26:27 GMT
I don't think the books and audios really distance themselves from it. The books and audios have come up with explanations for many of the things you just mentioned. Having not read many books, honestly, I've seen no mention of the events of the movie, or explaining any of the Master inconsistencies. And having listened to most of the Eighth Doctor BF Audios, can say that I don't recall any reference to the events being mentioned, or explanations for The master. Why would the Master need explaining, I don't like his story in the movie, but nothing about it feels to me like it needs extra explanation
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2015 17:28:43 GMT
It has only been it seems to me since the revival that The Doctor seems to reference or talk about stories past, not mentioning events the TV movie is not distancing, although it could be characterised as sweeping under the rug, but then so much of Who must be seen in the same light, how many other TV episodes have never been mentioned again? I can think of a few that I hope are never mentioned again.
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Post by randomjc on Nov 11, 2015 17:33:45 GMT
Having not read many books, honestly, I've seen no mention of the events of the movie, or explaining any of the Master inconsistencies. And having listened to most of the Eighth Doctor BF Audios, can say that I don't recall any reference to the events being mentioned, or explanations for The master. Why would the Master need explaining, I don't like his story in the movie, but nothing about it feels to me like it needs extra explanation I can think a few, that I've pointed out before. But I may be in a minority of that opinion.
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Post by icecreamdf on Nov 11, 2015 19:58:35 GMT
I don't think the books and audios really distance themselves from it. The books and audios have come up with explanations for many of the things you just mentioned. Having not read many books, honestly, I've seen no mention of the events of the movie, or explaining any of the Master inconsistencies. And having listened to most of the Eighth Doctor BF Audios, can say that I don't recall any reference to the events being mentioned, or explanations for The master. Listen to Mastermind, to hear the Master, and the Vault team discussing the events of the TV movie. He sort of gives an explanation for how he became a snake thing. The Sixth Doctor audio, The Apocalypse Element, explains why a human eye was needed to open the Eye of Harmony. I'm pretty I've heard that the Daleks giving the Master a trial was explained in a novel or comic that I haven't read. The TV Movie was full of plot holes and inconsistencies that spin-off material later explained. So, basically, its like any other episode of Doctor Who.
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Post by TinDogPodcast on Nov 12, 2015 7:32:00 GMT
I only brought it up because it feels like the sort of thing Mr Moffat does...
There are 12 incarnations... Oh hang on no.
The doctor is male... Oh hang on...
No...
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Post by mrfuggleboppins on Nov 12, 2015 13:25:29 GMT
I only brought it up because it feels like the sort of thing Mr Moffat does... There are 12 incarnations... Oh hang on no. The doctor is male... Oh hang on... No... Are you complaining about The Curse of Fatal Death after 16 years?
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Post by seeley on Nov 12, 2015 23:31:20 GMT
I only brought it up because it feels like the sort of thing Mr Moffat does... There are 12 incarnations... Oh hang on no. The doctor is male... Oh hang on... No... Or those rascals Holmes and Adams. Time Lords are immortal, barring accidents, oh wait... Romana isn't blue-skinned, oh wait... The Second Doctor never worked for the Time Lords, hang on... And a special Circle is reserved for those iconoclasts, Davis, Pedler, and Lloyd: The Doctor is an old man with white hair and a face like Billy Hartnell's... Oh no he isn't!
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