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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Nov 17, 2017 20:20:45 GMT
...Peter Capaldi's sharing his regeneration story with another Doctor.
Looking on Twitter, the reaction to the Twice Upon A Time Children In Need clip seems to be largely positive. Many casual viewers are saying they are excited for Christmas or will make sure to watch Doctor Who on Christmas Day.
Nobody seems remotely concerned that Peter Capaldi is sharing his regeneration story with another Doctor. I wonder if it's only us fans bothered about whether Peter Capaldi will be overshadowed by having another Doctor with him when it should be purely about 12?
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Post by Whovitt on Nov 17, 2017 20:52:15 GMT
Sorry, but why would the casual audience care about that? And more to the point, how many fans think that having the 1st Doctor/any other Doctor in this story is in any way a 'bad' thing? I understand the potential for why it could possibly be seen as 'bad', but is it really?
The casual audience is just that - they'll watch it if it's on, but they're probably not going to deliberately set aside the time to watch it (other than these people on Twitter who are saying they are). In other words, they don't really care what happens in the episode so long as they are entertained. From the 'casual point of view', having two Doctors in one story is actually a special event... so why would they be against it? "It's Capaldi's regeneration story," you might argue. "...And?" they'll reply, not knowing how/why this is/would be such a 'big deal' (spoiler: because it really isn't).
As for the fans, I can't say I've seen all that many people have an issue with it; if fact, you might be the only person I've seen on this forum (there may have been one or two other people in agreement with you, I can't quite remember, but regards, the majority of us are actually quite looking forward to it). And even if I'm wrong on that point (and I accept it if I am), not all of "us fans" are bothered, as has been clearly explained by other people on this forum in various places.
People cannot make blanket statements when there simply aren't the facts or data to make such statements, especially when the statements being made can never really be informed, nor when a personal bias is being brought to bare.
Also, in regards to your second paragraph, why wouldn't people be excited for the Christmas special? Because there are two Doctors in it? Sorry, but that's just a little bit silly.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Nov 17, 2017 21:07:45 GMT
Sorry, but why would the casual audience care about that? Because 'Ooh, that lovely guy may be overshadowed. That's not right. It's his last episode'. I've seen plenty express concern that Peter Capaldi may be overshadowed in his regeneration story. I would have thought they would be worried about Peter Capaldi being overshadowed. Of course people will be excited. Multi-Doctor stories are exciting. But is it right to do it in a regeneration story when the focus should be solely on 12?
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Post by Whovitt on Nov 17, 2017 21:15:16 GMT
Well, you missed my point about the casual audience entirely... I said 'on this forum' in regard to fans. I'm sure there are probably of other places where people are unhappy about it, but I wasn't talking about them as I know nothing about them. Knowing nothing about them, I thought it would be inappropriate for me to make a generalised statement And my point still stands - it's a multi-Doctor story, usually promoted beyond anything else (aside from possibly a new Doctor or companion). Why on Earth are the casual audience going to care about the possibility of overshadowing the leading man? They're casual! If they cared, they wouldn't be And for my two cents, David Bradley has *some* of the 1st Doctoriness, but he's no William Hartnell. Being real for a moment, what are the chances that he's going to overshadow Peter Capaldi? (And no, I'm not going to argue about this - I've stated my opinion, and that isn't going change )
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Nov 17, 2017 21:22:29 GMT
Well, you missed my point about the casual audience entirely... I said 'on this forum' in regard to fans. I'm sure there are probably of other places where people are unhappy about it, but I wasn't talking about them as I know nothing about them. Knowing nothing about them, I thought it would be inappropriate for me to make a generalised statement And my point still stands - it's a multi-Doctor story, usually promoted beyond anything else (aside from possibly a new Doctor or companion). Why on Earth are the casual audience going to care about the possibility of overshadowing the leading man? They're casual! If they cared, they wouldn't be And for my two cents, David Bradley has *some* of the 1st Doctoriness, but he's no William Hartnell. Being real for a moment, what are the chances that he's going to overshadow Peter Capaldi? (And no, I'm not going to argue about this - I've stated my opinion, and that isn't going change ) Multi-Doctor in general is going to overshadow it being Peter Capaldi's last story. Christmas should be 12, Clara and Missy.
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Post by jasonward on Nov 17, 2017 21:24:51 GMT
I'm a fan, regarded by most of my peers as a huge Who geek, and I love the idea of the first Doctor being in the story, and since the first Doctor these days is basically unknown outside of fandom, unlike say Tennant, the only reason Capaldi could be overshadowed is a bad story, and the risk of that is always present, no more and no less because of the first Doctors presence.
For me, the few voices getting worked up by this potential problem are ignoring all the other potential the story has. Concentrating on the negative for no good reason.
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Post by jasonward on Nov 17, 2017 21:38:44 GMT
Multi-Doctor in general is going to overshadow it being Peter Capaldi's last story. Christmas should be 12, Clara and Missy. I disagree with you. What makes you so utterly certain that you are right and that I am wrong?
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Post by xlozdob on Nov 17, 2017 21:43:05 GMT
I'm a massive fan, Capaldi is probably my favourite Doctor, bar McGann, and I'm excited! I don't think he's going to be overshadowed in any way. Capaldi's last story was The Doctor Falls two-parter, this is his encore, a fun Christmas adventure that will accentuate the aspects of his conundrum in regards to regeneration.
And, apart from that, Bradley is a fantastic actor, and, after what I could see tonight, he captures the First Doctor brilliantly. And we also get more Capaldi. And our first glimpse at Jodie. So yeah, nothing not to be excited about.
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Post by sherlock on Nov 17, 2017 21:44:24 GMT
Well, you missed my point about the casual audience entirely... I said 'on this forum' in regard to fans. I'm sure there are probably of other places where people are unhappy about it, but I wasn't talking about them as I know nothing about them. Knowing nothing about them, I thought it would be inappropriate for me to make a generalised statement And my point still stands - it's a multi-Doctor story, usually promoted beyond anything else (aside from possibly a new Doctor or companion). Why on Earth are the casual audience going to care about the possibility of overshadowing the leading man? They're casual! If they cared, they wouldn't be And for my two cents, David Bradley has *some* of the 1st Doctoriness, but he's no William Hartnell. Being real for a moment, what are the chances that he's going to overshadow Peter Capaldi? (And no, I'm not going to argue about this - I've stated my opinion, and that isn't going change ) Multi-Doctor in general is going to overshadow it being Peter Capaldi's last story. Christmas should be 12, Clara and Missy. I don't see why it will overshadow it, we've already seen Capaldi's big sacrifice so we don't need another story of him having a 'final stand'. From what little we know it seems like Christmas is more focusing on getting him to embrace the regeneration and move forward, and maybe bringing back the first Doctor seemed the best way to tell it.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Nov 17, 2017 21:45:29 GMT
I'm a fan, regarded by most of my peers as a huge Who geek, and I love the idea of the first Doctor being in the story, and since the first Doctor these days is basically unknown outside of fandom, unlike say Tennant, the only reason Capaldi could be overshadowed is a bad story, and the risk of that is always present, no more and no less because of the first Doctors presence. For me, the few voices getting worked up by this potential problem are ignoring all the other potential the story has. Concentrating on the negative for no good reason. It doesn't work like that IMO. Any past Doctor has the potential to overshadow the current when it is the current Doctor's regeneration story. The idea of Twice Upon A Time is great, but not for a regeneration story. It would have worked better as part of the Series 10 finale. Two Doctors v two Masters and Cybermen.
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Post by jasonward on Nov 17, 2017 21:48:29 GMT
I'm a fan, regarded by most of my peers as a huge Who geek, and I love the idea of the first Doctor being in the story, and since the first Doctor these days is basically unknown outside of fandom, unlike say Tennant, the only reason Capaldi could be overshadowed is a bad story, and the risk of that is always present, no more and no less because of the first Doctors presence. For me, the few voices getting worked up by this potential problem are ignoring all the other potential the story has. Concentrating on the negative for no good reason. It doesn't work like that IMO. Any past Doctor has the potential to overshadow the current when it is the current Doctor's regeneration story. The idea of Twice Upon A Time is great, but not for a regeneration story. It would have worked better as part of the Series 10 finale. Two Doctors v two Masters and Cybermen. The problem with what you are saying is not that you are saying it, its the way your saying it, your expressing a fear, an opinion about the future as if it was past proven fact. I hear your fears, I understand your fears. I think they are misplaced. The future will happen and we shall learn the truth in time.
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Post by xlozdob on Nov 17, 2017 21:52:13 GMT
I'm a fan, regarded by most of my peers as a huge Who geek, and I love the idea of the first Doctor being in the story, and since the first Doctor these days is basically unknown outside of fandom, unlike say Tennant, the only reason Capaldi could be overshadowed is a bad story, and the risk of that is always present, no more and no less because of the first Doctors presence. For me, the few voices getting worked up by this potential problem are ignoring all the other potential the story has. Concentrating on the negative for no good reason. It doesn't work like that IMO. Any past Doctor has the potential to overshadow the current when it is the current Doctor's regeneration story. The idea of Twice Upon A Time is great, but not for a regeneration story. It would have worked better as part of the Series 10 finale. Two Doctors v two Masters and Cybermen. Then you aren't getting the idea, cause it's supposed to be a regeneration story, not some random encounter between the Doctor and one of his past selves. One Doctor's arc is supposed to mirror the other in this story. At from what we know, both Doctors being on the verge of regeneration and refusing to change is integral to the story.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2017 22:02:45 GMT
"They'll never do a one-hander, that would be stupid" - DB before they did a one-hander "There's no way they're having a gap year in 2016" - DB before the 2016 gap year. "The Movellans coming back will alienate the casual audience" - DB before the Movellans had a 3 second background cameo. I'll take your predictions with a wee nip of salt, DB. Let's be frank here - there's probably few fans more geeked out about the First Doctor joining the Twelfth for his regen than Capaldi himself so I'm cool with it. He's worked very, very closely with Moffat over his era in a way Matt wasn't quite able to do as someon who didn't have a childhood love for the show and it's clear this is what they both want. If Capaldi doesn't feel like he needs to be the only Doctor to have "his" moment, then who am I - or you - to say before we see it? I'm 100% sure that it will be above all, a showcase for the Twelfth Doctor. David Bradley will no doubt have some great stuff and steal a scene or three but I'm probably one of the bigger fans of Capaldi - both as The Doctor and in other roles - on the forum and I've got no hesitations. I'm not seeing this fan worry you talk about.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Nov 17, 2017 22:15:50 GMT
Multi-Doctor in general is going to overshadow it being Peter Capaldi's last story. Christmas should be 12, Clara and Missy. I disagree with you. What makes you so utterly certain that you are right and that I am wrong? I may be wrong, I just find it bizarre that Moffat's approach to a regeneration story for 12 is to bring back a past Doctor rather than a 12, Clara and Missy adventure.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Nov 17, 2017 22:18:01 GMT
It doesn't work like that IMO. Any past Doctor has the potential to overshadow the current when it is the current Doctor's regeneration story. The idea of Twice Upon A Time is great, but not for a regeneration story. It would have worked better as part of the Series 10 finale. Two Doctors v two Masters and Cybermen. Then you aren't getting the idea, cause it's supposed to be a regeneration story, not some random encounter between the Doctor and one of his past selves. One Doctor's arc is supposed to mirror the other in this story. At from what we know, both Doctors being on the verge of regeneration and refusing to change is integral to the story. I get that 1 is supposed to mirror 12, but why tell that story in a regeneration story is what I'm trying to say. You could do that in the finale, and have 12 miraculously survive and not regenerate after all, then something happens at Christmas that puts him on the verge of regeneration again.
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Post by sherlock on Nov 17, 2017 22:24:53 GMT
I disagree with you. What makes you so utterly certain that you are right and that I am wrong? I may be wrong, I just find it bizarre that Moffat's approach to a regeneration story for 12 is to bring back a past Doctor rather than a 12, Clara and Missy adventure. Why does a regeneration story need to be a 'greatest hits'? Clara's story is done, it's been done several times now. What would her presence add? Missy was given a good 'redemption-ish' arc that I'd say is more creative than have her be a straight villain again and paid off really well. I'm not sure what the appeal of having a '12, Clara and Missy' adventure actually is.
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Post by masterdoctor on Nov 17, 2017 22:36:19 GMT
I may be wrong, I just find it bizarre that Moffat's approach to a regeneration story for 12 is to bring back a past Doctor rather than a 12, Clara and Missy adventure. Why does a regeneration story need to be a 'greatest hits'? Clara's story is done, it's been done several times now. What would her presence add? Missy was given a good 'redemption-ish' arc that I'd say is more creative than have her be a straight villain again and paid off really well. I'm not sure what the appeal of having a '12, Clara and Missy' adventure actually is. And to add to that, I would much prefer Bill and Nardole to return as it was pretty evident that The Doctor was happier around them.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Nov 17, 2017 22:39:56 GMT
I may be wrong, I just find it bizarre that Moffat's approach to a regeneration story for 12 is to bring back a past Doctor rather than a 12, Clara and Missy adventure. Why does a regeneration story need to be a 'greatest hits'? Clara's story is done, it's been done several times now. What would her presence add? Missy was given a good 'redemption-ish' arc that I'd say is more creative than have her be a straight villain again and paid off really well. I'm not sure what the appeal of having a '12, Clara and Missy' adventure actually is. Because 12, Clara and Missy are the three characters who sum up 12's era.
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Post by jasonward on Nov 17, 2017 22:45:48 GMT
I may be wrong, I just find it bizarre that Moffat's approach to a regeneration story for 12 is to bring back a past Doctor rather than a 12, Clara and Missy adventure. Why does a regeneration story need to be a 'greatest hits'? Clara's story is done, it's been done several times now. What would her presence add? Missy was given a good 'redemption-ish' arc that I'd say is more creative than have her be a straight villain again and paid off really well. I'm not sure what the appeal of having a '12, Clara and Missy' adventure actually is. It wouldn't appeal to me at all, it would annoy me no end.
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Post by sherlock on Nov 17, 2017 22:59:48 GMT
Why does a regeneration story need to be a 'greatest hits'? Clara's story is done, it's been done several times now. What would her presence add? Missy was given a good 'redemption-ish' arc that I'd say is more creative than have her be a straight villain again and paid off really well. I'm not sure what the appeal of having a '12, Clara and Missy' adventure actually is. Because 12, Clara and Missy are the three characters who sum up 12's era. So? Why does the regeneration story need to be a summary of his era?
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