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Post by seeley on Nov 3, 2015 0:26:15 GMT
I'm hardly an authority on the subject, so take what I say with more than a grain of salt, but while the two shows are rather different in some regards, they are nonetheless high-profile family-sci-fi-fantasy franchises, which doe leave them on similar commercial ground. For what it's worth, they've been seen as competitors in the past, with at least part of the initial, somewhat tepid reaction to Spearhead from Space being the impression that it was a poor replacement for Star Trek. To wit, this quote from the BBC's Audience Research Department: 'A few (but very few) admitted that they never had any time for this "childish rubbish", while a considerable number remarked that although a new Doctor Who series was not unwelcome and this first episode had appeal, compared to the series it replaced, Star Trek, it seemed naive, and, to them, less satisfying. "Hardly an adequate substitute for Star Trek, and by comparison rather childish. But time will tell, and it's good enough in its own way." Altogether the consensus of opinion seemed to be that this new series gave every indication of becoming a Doctor Who adventure in the expected tradition - and certainly (many added) it appealed very much to children.'
Of course, that was 1970, so things have no doubt changed since, but IMHO, competition between the two is hardly out of the question.
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Post by david on Nov 3, 2015 0:32:54 GMT
Of course, that was 1970, so things have no doubt changed since, but IMHO, competition between the two is hardly out of the question. Absolutely, you're 100% right but as Jason said above, over-saturation is so much more difficult now when there are hundreds more channels and dozens of ways to watch tv. There are whole channels for one genre which in 1970 would have seemed ridiculous. Nowadays when there are over a dozen Marvel and DC Superhero shows in production at once, the rules have most certainly changed and there's room for more than one big dog in the yard. 10 years ago, the CW may have said "Do we do Arrow or Flash?" but not they just do both. I know that's superhero but the analogy is the same for "purer" sci-fi (though Flash has more science than Who these days !) We're in a golden age of geeky entertainment, that much is clear.
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Post by icecreamdf on Nov 3, 2015 1:38:32 GMT
TNG started off weak, it's true, but it got pretty good later on. Well, that's my point. All four spinoffs started off weak, but went on to be really good. If the new show follows that pattern, I just hope that it isn't cancelled before it gets the chance to be good. After all, Enterprise was cancelled just after it started getting good.
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Post by david on Nov 3, 2015 1:50:57 GMT
Enterprise did rebound later but the damage was done - the audience had turned off. It had ann unmemorable cast and characters. Even Scott Bakula - sci-fi fave - was given so little to work with.
That said...Trek had been on non-stop since TNG started for 2 decades nonstop and 6 or so films (4 TNGs and some TOS movies) by the time Enterprise ended. It was perhaps time for a rest. The 90s had milked the franchise dry and Berman and Braga were so unwilling to pass the baton to new creatives.
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Post by icecreamdf on Nov 3, 2015 2:13:15 GMT
Enterprise did rebound later but the damage was done - the audience had turned off. It had ann unmemorable cast and characters. Even Scott Bakula - sci-fi fave - was given so little to work with. That said...Trek had been on non-stop since TNG started for 2 decades nonstop and 6 or so films (4 TNGs and some TOS movies) by the time Enterprise ended. It was perhaps time for a rest. The 90s had milked the franchise dry and Berman and Braga were so unwilling to pass the baton to new creatives. Well, IMO, season 4 of Enterprise was one of the best seasons in the franchise, and season 3 was pretty good too. The first two seasons could have been better, but they were still much better than the first season of TNG. I also really like the cast of Enterprise. Its my second favorite Trek after DS9.
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Post by david on Nov 3, 2015 2:30:13 GMT
I wish for you and other Enterprise fans - including my brother - that more people had agreed with you and come on board with the show and it may not have been cancelled (twice!) but the ratings went down and down year on year. Enterprise DID get better in Season 4, absolutely, but the ratings got worse. Broadcasters selling ad time on a show that was already cancelled and reprieved once aren't going to let that stand for long regardless of the quality of the show.
The public were just not as interested by the time of Enterprise. That TNG Nemesis flopped at the box office around that time suggests it wasn't just Enterprise's fault - the public had seen enough of Trek in general. Franchise fatigue. Trek was preaching to the choir. This new show, being streaming, will have different challenges but also different opportunities. Who knows what will happen with it? Streaming is such a young medium.
I understand from FB posts about Supergirl that CBS's site is a joke - poor interfaces and awful buffering issues so that's something I hope gets looked into.
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Post by icecreamdf on Nov 3, 2015 2:54:32 GMT
If more people had agreed with you, it wouldn't have been cancelled (twice!) but the ratings went down and down year on year. Enterprise DID get better in Season 4 but the ratings got worse. Broadcasters selling ad time on a show that was already cancelled and reprieved once aren't going to let that stand. The public were just not as interested by the time of Enterprise. That TNG Nemesis flopped at the box office around that time suggests it wasn't just Enterprise's fault - the public had seen enough of Trek in general. Franchise fatigue. Trek was preaching to the choir. This new show, being streaming, will have different challenges but also different opportunities. Who knows what will happen with it? Streaming is such a young medium. I understand from FB posts about Supergirl that CBS's site is a joke - poor interfaces and awful buffering issues so that's something I hope gets looked into. Well, I'm just glad that TNG wasn't cancelled during its awful couple of seasons. I guess its the same problem that Classic Who had-eventually only the fans watch it. I hope CBS can improve their site in the year they have before Trek comes out. I also hope that they get an app on the Fire TV. Its hard enough watching Colbert and Supergirl right now, and they at least are on regular TV.
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Post by david on Nov 3, 2015 3:11:38 GMT
Well, I'm just glad that TNG wasn't cancelled during its awful couple of seasons. I guess its the same problem that Classic Who had-eventually only the fans watch it. I hope CBS can improve their site in the year they have before Trek comes out. I also hope that they get an app on the Fire TV. Its hard enough watching Colbert and Supergirl right now, and they at least are on regular TV. Those early years - and I agree, they're really quite poor - got pretty great ratings though. The show hit its ratings peak in S4 but even as early as Season 1 it was the highest rated syndicated show. Like I was saying about the public being sick of Trek in 2002, they were clearly hungry for it in 1987. I guess the novelty of new Trek got them through the first couple and then - post Best Of Both Worlds - it became a BIG deal for a few years. Indeed, it's that S4 era where DS9 and Voyager were first mooted so it was clearly a boom time for the franchiseebing able to spinoff two shows pretty much back-to-back. Voyager even launched a new channel (was it called UPN?) so there was a lot of Trek love about in the early-mid 90s. I think you make an excellent point about Who - it was quite similiar an ending for both franchises. They went out with a whimper despite both having late renaissances. Luckily...they're both too good to stay buried for too long. A deep wish of mine is that there would be a BF equivalent for Trek but I guess the semi-professional fan films take that place since a lot of the actors from the series are willing to appear in them. Some of them are just stunning visually. The best of them look like they could be on tv.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2015 3:12:56 GMT
And yet, somewhere on the internet, someone will decry the new series because it's not within the original timeline.
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Post by david on Nov 3, 2015 3:24:17 GMT
And yet, somewhere on the internet, someone will decry the new series because it's not within the original timeline. I've already seen it on more than a few places. I've seen all of these at least a few times today in comments sections on news reports and forums: - "I'm not interested if it's not in the Prime Universe" - "I'm not interested if it's not Michael Dorn's proposed Worf spinoff - "I'm not interested if this is yet another new continuity" - "I'm not interested if this doesn't have characters we know". - "I'm not interested if this isn't set post-Voyager" - "I'm not interested in anything Alex Kurtzman does" I think there will be some who aren't going to admit they're open to the idea no matter what unless it's announced Patrick Stewart, William Shatner, Michael Dorn, Brent Spiner, Terry Farrell, Jeri Ryan and Robert Picardo are going to be the stars and it's set on the NCC-1701-F
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Post by icecreamdf on Nov 3, 2015 3:36:58 GMT
Well, I'm just glad that TNG wasn't cancelled during its awful couple of seasons. I guess its the same problem that Classic Who had-eventually only the fans watch it. I hope CBS can improve their site in the year they have before Trek comes out. I also hope that they get an app on the Fire TV. Its hard enough watching Colbert and Supergirl right now, and they at least are on regular TV. Those early years - and I agree, they're really quite poor - got pretty great ratings though. The show hit its ratings peak in S4 but even as early as Season 1 it was the highest rated syndicated show. Like I was saying about the public being sick of Trek in 2002, they were clearly hungry for it in 1987. I guess the novelty of new Trek got them through the first couple and then - post Best Of Both Worlds - it became a BIG deal for a few years. Indeed, it's that S4 era where DS9 and Voyager were first mooted so it was clearly a boom time for the franchiseebing able to spinoff two shows pretty much back-to-back. Voyager even launched a new channel (was it called UPN?) so there was a lot of Trek love about in the early-mid 90s. I think you make an excellent point about Who - it was quite similiar an ending for both franchises. They went out with a whimper despite both having late renaissances. Luckily...they're both too good to stay buried for too long. A deep wish of mine is that there would be a BF equivalent for Trek but I guess the semi-professional fan films take that place since a lot of the actors from the series are willing to appear in them. Some of them are just stunning visually. The best of them look like they could be on tv. That makes sense. Hopefully the public is hungry for Star Trek now too. I would love a BF equivalent for Trek (or BF Trek) but its not really practical. Who generally has two or three stars at at a time, so it isn't that hard to reunite them. Trek always has at least half a dozen stars at once, and some of them still have pretty big careers. It would be hard to get any of the old Trek crews back together for a spinoff.
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Post by icecreamdf on Nov 3, 2015 3:39:14 GMT
And yet, somewhere on the internet, someone will decry the new series because it's not within the original timeline. I hope it is in the original timeline, but I'm sure I'll be happy with whatever we get.
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Post by glutamodo on Nov 3, 2015 3:39:39 GMT
I stuck with Enterprise all the way up to the end. I didn't care much for that final episode but the handful that came before it were excellent. I gave up on TNG for the 2nd season, but came back on season 3.
I don't want this new series to have anything to do with the JJ-verse. I've been trying to think of what I do want. Continuity and Canon get in the way... JJ jettisoned most of it with his alternate-timeline. I'm not much of a fan of those movies though (I thought the first one was "OK" and the second one pretty awful... and I don't know if I'll even bother with the third. ) So I don't want to see more in that universe. But I do understand the difficulty of adhering to continuity and canon, it's hard to do without pissing off too many hardcore fans that won't accept it when you goof up and contradict Canon, be it by mistake or on purpose. Enterprise, being a prequel could sort of get around some of it, but I always thought they went too far, especially the first two seasons. That show's improvement towards the end was from having writers that embraced the prequelness of it rather than trying to stand alone.
I think I'd like to have a show set in the "prime" universe, but with a story line that doesn't place it in a position to need to conform to lots of canon most of the time.
Actually, come to think of it, I'd like something similar to the fan-produced audio show I work for, Star Trek Excelsior. Prime Universe, NOT on a ship called Enterprise (but of the same class of starship) and with long story arcs that balance fresh stories with a base in canon.
Oh, and please, no Mirror Universe!
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Post by icecreamdf on Nov 3, 2015 3:44:58 GMT
I stuck with Enterprise all the way up to the end. I didn't care much for that final episode but the handful that came before it were excellent. I gave up on TNG for the 2nd season, but came back on season 3.
I don't want this new series to have anything to do with the JJ-verse. I've been trying to think of what I do want. Continuity and Canon get in the way... JJ jettisoned most of it with his alternate-timeline. I'm not much of a fan of those movies though (I thought the first one was "OK" and the second one pretty awful... and I don't know if I'll even bother with the third. ) So I don't want to see more in that universe. But I do understand the difficulty of adhering to continuity and canon, it's hard to do without pissing off too many hardcore fans that won't accept it when you goof up and contradict Canon, be it by mistake or on purpose. Enterprise, being a prequel could sort of get around some of it, but I always thought they went too far, especially the first two seasons. That show's improvement towards the end was from having writers that embraced the prequelness of it rather than trying to stand alone.
I think I'd like to have a show set in the "prime" universe, but with a story line that doesn't place it in a position to need to conform to lots of canon most of the time.
Actually, come to think of it, I'd like something similar to the fan-produced audio show I work for, Star Trek Excelsior. Prime Universe, NOT on a ship called Enterprise (but of the same class of starship) and with long story arcs that balance fresh stories with a base in canon.
Oh, and please, no Mirror Universe! These Are The Voyages never happened. Demons/Terra Prime is the real Enterprise finale. I think the best thing to do would be to set the show in the Prime Universe, but about a century after Nemesis. That way they can avoid referencing the other shows too much, but still acknowledge them as part of the show's history. And the Mirror Universe is too fun not to use.
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Post by david on Nov 3, 2015 4:05:43 GMT
My issue with the JJ-verse was perhaps a bit nitpicky and incredibly geeky..but it has bugged me. Maybe someone can help me with it.
I stress I eny them as spectacle but things like the below kinda confuse me.
What's the point in the whole Trek cncept, or indeed spaceships, when tech already exists in the Abrams-verse - created by Scotty - to beam directly from Earth to Qo'noS? That's NINETY light years. Even hundreds of years later in the prime universe this is impossible but Khan does it in Into Dakrness. Scotty created this before Spock and Nero travelled back so it's nothing to do with "an alternate universe" as events from before the point old Spock and Nero came back to are unaltered. Essentially it's only after Spock and Nero's arrival that the Universes diverge. So this tech was completely retconned into being pre-existing. I wish someone had told Janeway - she might have gotten Voyager back much faster!
I'm not sure I see a way out of this despite giving it thought.
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Post by david on Nov 3, 2015 4:10:55 GMT
And the Mirror Universe is too fun not to use. 100%. Not too much but the occasional trip there is so much fun. Especially the DS9 variety with Superintendent Kira. It gives the actors the chance to really ham it up and it's pure pulpy sci-fi. It's kinda goofy, sure, but I always love those eps. My all time favourite Trek ep - any series - is Far Beyond The Stars. Not Mirror Universe, of course, but similiar in that the regulars play different roles to their usual performances.
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Post by glutamodo on Nov 3, 2015 4:12:06 GMT
The Mirror Universe is fun... but it's also nonsensical and rubbish. A little bit of it goes a very long way, and they went there too much for my tastes. ( The same can be said for time travel stories.)
I should have phrased that comment differently, I'm not against using the Mirror Universe but I don't want this series to be set there. After the new series has its feet, then ONE visit there, I'll accept that.
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Post by icecreamdf on Nov 3, 2015 4:40:08 GMT
The Mirror Universe is fun... but it's also nonsensical and rubbish. A little bit of it goes a very long way, and they went there too much for my tastes. ( The same can be said for time travel stories.) I should have phrased that comment differently, I'm not against using the Mirror Universe but I don't want this series to be set there. After the new series has its feet, then ONE visit there, I'll accept that. Well, despite what I may have said jokingly in an earlier post, I don't think anyone wants a mirror universe series. The great thing about Star Trek is that it offers an optimistic view of the future, but the Mirror Universe is much more bleak.
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Post by icecreamdf on Nov 3, 2015 4:45:32 GMT
My issue with the JJ-verse was perhaps a bit nitpicky and incredibly geeky..but it has bugged me. Maybe someone can help me with it. I stress I eny them as spectacle but things like the below kinda confuse me. What's the point in the whole Trek cncept, or indeed spaceships, when tech already exists in the Abrams-verse - created by Scotty - to beam directly from Earth to Qo'noS? That's NINETY light years. Even hundreds of years later in the prime universe this is impossible but Khan does it in Into Dakrness. Scotty created this before Spock and Nero travelled back so it's nothing to do with "an alternate universe" as events from before the point old Spock and Nero came back to are unaltered. Essentially it's only after Spock and Nero's arrival that the Universes diverge. So this tech was completely retconned into being pre-existing. I wish someone had told Janeway - she might have gotten Voyager back much faster! I'm not sure I see a way out of this despite giving it thought. That kind of thing did show up in the other shows occasionally though. There was an episode of Enterprise where the inventor of the transporter tried (and failed) to invent a transporter that can beam people between star systems, and I think Dukat ince had a Dominion transporter used to beam Kira from DS9 to Empok Nor.
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Post by icecreamdf on Nov 3, 2015 4:53:56 GMT
And the Mirror Universe is too fun not to use. 100%. Not too much but the occasional trip there is so much fun. Especially the DS9 variety with Superintendent Kira. It gives the actors the chance to really ham it up and it's pure pulpy sci-fi. It's kinda goofy, sure, but I always love those eps. My all time favourite Trek ep - any series - is Far Beyond The Stars. Not Mirror Universe, of course, but similiar in that the regulars play different roles to their usual performances. I think the best part of Far Beyond the Stars is how different it is from a normal Star Trek episode. Trek deals with racism all the time, but usually by using alien conflicts as a metaphor for real life racism (Let That Be Your Last Battlefield is my favorite example). Far Beyond the Stars, however, features almost no sci-fi, and deals with human racism directly.
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