sherlock
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Post by sherlock on Feb 27, 2018 13:03:24 GMT
Below is a listening/watching order for the Time War, as making a timeline for a war waged across time seemed a bit fruitless. I intend to update as more releases come.
The Saga of The Last Great Time War:
Prelude:
-Tensions between the Daleks and Time Lords build over centuries, as hints emerge of a coming temporal conflict
Fields of Terror
Across the Darkened City
The Bonfires of the Vanities
Falling
Day of the Daleks
Frontier in Space
Planet of the Daleks
Genesis of the Daleks
Terror of the Zygons
Return of the Daleks
The Dalek Revenge
The Revisionists
Resurrection of the Daleks
The Reaping
The Apocalypse Element
Remembrance of the Daleks
The Genocide Machine
Damaged Goods
Random Ghosts
The Lights of Skaro
The Company of Friends: Mary’s Story
The Time of the Daleks
Weapon of Choice
The Inquiry
A Blind Eye
Panacea
Arbitration
Extermination
Renaissance
Ascension
Dark Eyes: The Great War
Dark Eyes: Fugitives
Dark Eyes: Tangled Web
Dark Eyes: X and the Daleks
Dark Eyes: Eyes of the Master
Dark Eyes: The Death of Hope
Dark Eyes: The Reviled
Dark Eyes: Masterplan
Dark Eyes: Rule of the Eminence
Doom Coalition: The Crucible of Souls
Doom Coalition: Ship in a Bottle
Doom Coalition: Songs of Love
Doom Coalition: The Side of the Angels
Doom Coalition: Stop the Clock
Ravenous: Deeptime Frontier
Ravenous: Companion Piece
Birth of a Legend
The Master of Callous: Call for the Dead
The Master of Callous: The Glittering Prize
The Master of Callous: The Persistence of Dreams
The Master of Callous: Sins of the Father
An Ocean of Sawdust
The Conflict:
Act 1: Outbreak
-The Time Lords make a stand against the ascendant Dalek Empire
Time War: Celestial Intervention
Time War: Soldier Obscura
Act 2: Battered by the Storm
-Refusing to join his people’s cause, the Doctor is caught in the crossfire as all-out war begins
Museum Peace
Ghost of Christmas Past
Osskah
Natural Regression
The Rulers of the Universe
The Sontaran Ordeal
Day of the Vashta Nerada
A Heart on Both Sides
Act 3: The Master of War
-As the War escalates, the Master seeks opportunities amidst the chaos
Rage of the Time Lords: The Survivor
Rage of the Time Lords: The Coney Island Chameleon
Concealed Weapon
Rage of the Time Lords: The Missing Link
Rage of the Time Lords: Darkness and Light
Cyber-Reality: Telepresence
Cyber-Reality: Code Silver
Cyber-Reality: Master of Worlds
Only the Good: Beneath the Viscoid
Time War: The Devil You Know
Act 4: The Resurrection
-The founder of the Time Lords is resurrected to lead his people once more
Time War: Desperate Measures
Time War: Havoc
Time War: Partisans
Time War: Collateral
Time War: Assassins
Act 5: The Master Plan
-The Master enacts a scheme to end the War in his favour
Only the Good: The Good Master
Only the Good: The Sky Man
Only the Good: The Heavenly Paradigm
Act 6: The Fall of a Good Man
-The Doctor battles to save lives in a universe torn apart by war
The Time War: The Starship of Theseus
The Time War: Echoes of War
The Time War: The Conscript
The Time War: One Life
The Time War: The Lords of Terror
The Time War: Planet of the Ogrons
The Time War: In the Garden of Death
The Time War: Jonah
The Time War: State of Bliss
The Time War: The Famished Lands
The Time War: Fugitive in Time
The Time War: The War Valeyard
All Hands on Deck
The Legacy of Time: Lies in Ruins
The Night of the Doctor
Act 7: The Doctor of War
-A man once known as the Doctor fights on as the War enters its final stages
A Prologue
Ambush
Lost Patrol
The Third Wise Man
Only the Monstrous: The Innocent
Only the Monstrous: The Thousand Worlds
Only the Monstrous: The Heart of the Battle
Infernal Devices: Legion of the Lost
Infernal Devices: A Thing of Guile
Infernal Devices: The Neverwhen
Agents of Chaos: The Shadow Vortex
Agents of Chaos: The Eternity Cage
Agents of Chaos: Eye of Harmony
Casualties of War: Pretty Lies
Casualties of War: The Lady of Obsidian
Casualties of War: The Enigma Dimension
The Stranger
The Whole Thing’s Bananas
Engines of War
The Plague of Dreams
The Last Day
The Day of the Doctor
Aftermath:
-Worlds have died and civilisations have burnt, survivors of the War pick up the pieces in a changed universe
The Bleeding Heart
The Oncoming Storm
Battle Scars
The Catalyst
Empathy Games
The Time Vampire
Rose
The End of the World
The Unquiet Dead
Dalek
The Other Side
The Long Game
Father's Day
Weapons of Past Destruction
The Bidding War
Bad Wolf/The Parting of the Ways
I am a Dalek
The Futurists
School Reunion
Rise of the Cybermen/The Age of Steel
Army of Ghosts/Doomsday
The Runaway Bride
Gridlock
Daleks in Manhattan/Evolution of the Daleks
Utopia/The Sound of Drums/Last of the Time Lords
The Sontaran Stratagem/The Poison Sky
The Doctor’s Daughter
The Stolen Earth/Journey's End
The Forgotten
The Eyeless
Prisoner of the Daleks
Keeping Up With The Joneses
The Mad Woman in the Attic
Don’t Step on the Grass
The Waters of Mars
The End of Time
The Beast Below
Victory of the Daleks
Nothing O’Clock
The Then and The Now
Pull to Open
Outrun
The Judas Goatee
The One
Downtime
Running to Stay Still
First Rule
The Organ Grinder
Kill God
Fast Asleep
Gently Pulls The Strings
Physician, Heal Thyself
The Doctor's Wife
Time in a Bottle
Kings of Infinite Space
Whodunnit?
Someone I Once Knew
Sky Jacks
The Name of the Doctor
The Day of the Doctor
The Time of the Doctor
Four Doctors
Dark Water/Death in Heaven
Face the Raven
Heaven Sent
Hell Bent
Divorced, Beheaded, Regenerated
The Broken Clock
The Clockwise War
In Parallel:
-In another universe, another War leaves reality on the brink of collapse and another Doctor must pick up the pieces
The Unbound Universe: The Library in the Body
The Unbound Universe: Planet X
The Unbound Universe: The Very Dark Thing
The Unbound Universe: The Emporium at the End
Ruler of the Universe: The City and The Clock
Ruler of the Universe: Asking for a Friend
Ruler of the Universe: Truant
Ruler of the Universe: The True Saviour of the Universe
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Feb 27, 2018 14:41:40 GMT
That's pretty good  |
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Post by Digi on Feb 28, 2018 0:11:44 GMT
You know what I've been pondering for the last week or so, is whether Random Ghosts & Lights of Skaro (from New Benny Vol 1) should be considered War stories. What I get hung up on in particular is that a) Ace is a CIA agent (in training?) in that box set, which fits with IE/EL/TW1-era Ace; and b) having a Gallifreyan operative time-lock Skaro seems like...well, a rather hostile act.
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Post by Wolfie on Feb 28, 2018 3:26:41 GMT
Splendid work organising it all there. You know what I've been pondering for the last week or so, is whether Random Ghosts & Lights of Skaro (from New Benny Vol 1) should be considered War stories. What I get hung up on in particular is that a) Ace is a CIA agent (in training?) in that box set, which fits with IE/EL/TW1-era Ace; and b) having a Gallifreyan operative time-lock Skaro seems like...well, a rather hostile act. You can make a solid argument for it. At a guess, I think the main distinction would come down to whether the lead-up stories to the War count as part of the engagement itself.  Like... - Genesis has the CIA interfering in the Daleks' development;
- A Device of Death has the Doctor diverted again to kickstart what ultimately become the Movellans;
- Resurrection has the Daleks manufacture assassins for the High Council (in response to Genesis or Device, maybe);
- The Apocalypse Element has their first invasion of Gallifrey, and;
- Remembrance blows up Skaro (or at least, a Skaro) with a Gallifreyan stellar manipulator.
Coupled with the Benny set, they're all important events between the Time Lords and the Daleks. But... can they be considered battles in the War itself? |
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sherlock
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Post by sherlock on Feb 28, 2018 9:22:53 GMT
Splendid work organising it all there. You know what I've been pondering for the last week or so, is whether Random Ghosts & Lights of Skaro (from New Benny Vol 1) should be considered War stories. What I get hung up on in particular is that a) Ace is a CIA agent (in training?) in that box set, which fits with IE/EL/TW1-era Ace; and b) having a Gallifreyan operative time-lock Skaro seems like...well, a rather hostile act. You can make a solid argument for it. At a guess, I think the main distinction would come down to whether the lead-up stories to the War count as part of the engagement itself. Like... - Genesis has the CIA interfering in the Daleks' development;
- A Device of Death has the Doctor diverted again to kickstart what ultimately become the Movellans;
- Resurrection has the Daleks manufacture assassins for the High Council (in response to Genesis or Device, maybe);
- The Apocalypse Element has their first invasion of Gallifrey, and;
- Remembrance blows up Skaro (or at least, a Skaro) with a Gallifreyan stellar manipulator.
Coupled with the Benny set, they're all important events between the Time Lords and the Daleks. But... can they be considered battles in the War itself? I did consider putting in a prequels section including stories which either show hostilities between the Time Lords and Daleks or otherwise hint towards the War including: Genesis of the Daleks Resurrection of the Daleks The Apocalypse Element Patient Zero Remembrance of the Daleks Damaged Goods Random Ghosts The Lights of Skaro The Time of the Daleks Weapon of Choice Square One The Inquiry A Blind Eye Panacea Arbitration Extermination Ascension Dark Eyes 1 Dark Eyes 2 Doom Coalition 3 Doom Coalition 4 |
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Feb 28, 2018 12:59:46 GMT
Splendid work organising it all there. You know what I've been pondering for the last week or so, is whether Random Ghosts & Lights of Skaro (from New Benny Vol 1) should be considered War stories. What I get hung up on in particular is that a) Ace is a CIA agent (in training?) in that box set, which fits with IE/EL/TW1-era Ace; and b) having a Gallifreyan operative time-lock Skaro seems like...well, a rather hostile act. You can make a solid argument for it. At a guess, I think the main distinction would come down to whether the lead-up stories to the War count as part of the engagement itself. Like... - Genesis has the CIA interfering in the Daleks' development;
- A Device of Death has the Doctor diverted again to kickstart what ultimately become the Movellans;
- Resurrection has the Daleks manufacture assassins for the High Council (in response to Genesis or Device, maybe);
- The Apocalypse Element has their first invasion of Gallifrey, and;
- Remembrance blows up Skaro (or at least, a Skaro) with a Gallifreyan stellar manipulator.
Coupled with the Benny set, they're all important events between the Time Lords and the Daleks. But... can they be considered battles in the War itself? I'd say they are all part of a Temporal Cold War before the Last Great Time War kicks off |
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sherlock
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Post by sherlock on Mar 2, 2018 13:08:00 GMT
Edited to add stories that could be considered prequels to the war, either featuring hostilities between the Daleks and Time Lords or otherwise hinting at the coming Time War
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Post by polarbear on Mar 11, 2018 18:20:04 GMT
There's actually a great Time War story in, of all things, The Twelve Doctors of Christmas. The Eighth Doctor's story there, Ghost of Christmas Past, is remarkably good. He's solo, no companions. The Time War's been getting him down for a while, and he's really down about it.
To even say much about why I think it has the continuity I'd assign it would be spoilers, as it's kind of a mystery story, but (a) I suspect it's near The Sontaran Ordeal & Day of the Vashta Nerada, with how beaten down he is, and (b) there's a Short Trip you've placed near the outbreak of the Time War that almost definitely has to go after this short story, so there's a bit of a muddle to walk through.
Some really good stories in that Twelve Doctors of Christmas collection; I'd recommend it.
EDIT: Actually, one could also add the older Eighth Doctor's perspective from Mary's Story (main Range #153A). If you wanted to go crazy about it, you could even add the perspective of Leela-as-narrator in CC's The Catalyst/Empathy Games/The Time Vampire, where she's obviously narrating from a time subsequent to The War Doctor: Casualties of War: "The Lady of Obsidian," but before the time lock at the end of the Time War. But you might not want to get that crazy. :^)
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sherlock
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Post by sherlock on Mar 12, 2018 14:21:15 GMT
There's actually a great Time War story in, of all things, The Twelve Doctors of Christmas. The Eighth Doctor's story there, Ghost of Christmas Past, is remarkably good. He's solo, no companions. The Time War's been getting him down for a while, and he's really down about it. To even say much about why I think it has the continuity I'd assign it would be spoilers, as it's kind of a mystery story, but (a) I suspect it's near The Sontaran Ordeal & Day of the Vashta Nerada, with how beaten down he is, and (b) there's a Short Trip you've placed near the outbreak of the Time War that almost definitely has to go after this short story, so there's a bit of a muddle to walk through. Some really good stories in that Twelve Doctors of Christmas collection; I'd recommend it. EDIT: Actually, one could also add the older Eighth Doctor's perspective from Mary's Story (main Range #153A). If you wanted to go crazy about it, you could even add the perspective of Leela-as-narrator in CC's The Catalyst/Empathy Games/The Time Vampire, where she's obviously narrating from a time subsequent to The War Doctor: Casualties of War: "The Lady of Obsidian," but before the time lock at the end of the Time War. But you might not want to get that crazy. :^) I might be tempted to add an aftermath section including Leela's CCs and the New Series stories that deal with the war's aftermath. Mary's Story I was torn about which Doctor's perspective to place it, if younger in the prequels and if older I'd say soon before Night of the Doctor, given how grumpy and worn down he is. At the moment I'm limiting the order to just TV and Big Finish (as that's what I'm mainly familiar with). If I get the time I might see if I can work in the prose stuff, and maybe Titan's comics. I might check out the Twelve Doctors collection at some point. Edit: By the way, welcome to the forum! |
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Post by shallacatop on Mar 19, 2018 20:10:48 GMT
This is great work and I’m glad to see stories like Genesis, Resurrection and Remembrance of the Daleks are all included, as well as audios like The Apocalypse Elemenf. I really like the term “Temporal Cold War”.
The only thing I would say is that I feel like The War Master set comes later on in the Time War, but I understand that you’ve done it to fit in with his appearance in Gallifrey, which I appreciate is clearly the very beginning of the Time War. Similar goes for the Time War interventions in the First Doctor Companion Chronicles, they’re seemingly happening on the Last Day of the Time War, but they’re effecting the First Doctor so you’ve listed them very early on. I suppose the debates and subjective placements only support how crazy the Time War should be!
As an aside, would, say, Terror of the Zygons be justified in going on the list? They’re on Earth following the destruction of their planet, which we later learn in The Day of the Doctor, was a result of the Time War.
I’ve just realised the finales of all of RTD’s series of Doctor Who all involve an enemy who’s escaped the Time War. The Emperor, The Cult of Skaro, the Master, Davros and Rassilon.
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sherlock
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Post by sherlock on Mar 19, 2018 20:23:32 GMT
This is great work and I’m glad to see stories like Genesis, Resurrection and Remembrance of the Daleks are all included, as well as audios like The Apocalypse Elemenf. I really like the term “Temporal Cold War”. The only thing I would say is that I feel like The War Master set comes later on in the Time War, but I understand that you’ve done it to fit in with his appearance in Gallifrey, which I appreciate is clearly the very beginning of the Time War. Similar goes for the Time War interventions in the First Doctor Companion Chronicles, they’re seemingly happening on the Last Day of the Time War, but they’re effecting the First Doctor so you’ve listed them very early on. I suppose the debates and subjective placements only support how crazy the Time War should be! As an aside, would, say, Terror of the Zygons be justified in going on the list? They’re on Earth following the destruction of their planet, which we later learn in The Day of the Doctor, was a result of the Time War. I’ve just realised the finales of all of RTD’s series of Doctor Who all involve an enemy who’s escaped the Time War. The Emperor, The Cult of Skaro, the Master, Davros and Rassilon. My first impression of the War Master set was the same, but the Gallifrey set's tight chronology did away with that. Though given it's a Time War, I suppose it's conceivable they inadvertently summoned the Master from a later point in the War. The First Doctor set was tricky, as far as I understand the only direct reference to the War is in the final story with hints of temporal meddling in the first three. So the first three appear in the prologue (which is ordered primarily from the Doctor's point of view) and the fourth is placed just before the stories set in the final days. I hadn't thought of Terror of the Zygons but given the line in Day I suppose it belongs there. I will add it. |
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Post by shallacatop on Mar 19, 2018 20:31:24 GMT
Sorry, I didn’t notice you’d put The Plague of Dreams in the final days, my mistake there. You’re absolutely right about the First Doctor Companion Chronicles set; the first three are meddling and the fourth is more explicit and set during the final days. On the subject of that, I suppose you should include The End of Time, as it’s happening concurrent with events in The Day of the Doctor.
Great list, as I said. I think I’ll spend some of this evening listening to All Hands on Deck again.
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Post by Digi on Mar 26, 2018 22:24:42 GMT
I just noticed - River 1.4 "The Rulers of the Universe" is missing from the list. As with most releases in this meta-series it's a bit difficult to place, so I'm opting just to plop it in right before The Sontaran Ordeal, for no more compelling reason than that River Vol 1 came out before CDNM Vol 1.
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Post by shallacatop on Mar 27, 2018 9:34:33 GMT
I agree with putting The Rulers of the Universe before The Sontaran Ordeal, but I’d argue that all Time War related Eighth Doctor stories should go after his first Time War set. The Starship of Theseus seems to be his first proper involvement with it.
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Mar 27, 2018 9:42:06 GMT
I agree with putting The Rulers of the Universe before The Sontaran Ordeal, but I’d argue that all Time War related Eighth Doctor stories should go after his first Time War set. The Starship of Theseus seems to be his first proper involvement with it. His comments in “Starship...” suggests that he knows of the War but is petulantly attempting to avoid it (unlike by the time of “Night of the Doctor” where it appears he’s trying to do good while the War raged). So I think there are more “eight encounters the War for the first time” stories to come. Romana is certain the Doctor isn’t going to fight in Gallifrey Time War, so they’ve obviously covered that ground in some encounter before the Balloon went up. |
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sherlock
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Post by sherlock on Mar 27, 2018 10:17:47 GMT
I agree with putting The Rulers of the Universe before The Sontaran Ordeal, but I’d argue that all Time War related Eighth Doctor stories should go after his first Time War set. The Starship of Theseus seems to be his first proper involvement with it. However The Conscript suggests that he's been evading the war effort for some time. Theseus could be his first time in an active war zone, as the previous stories only show him skirting around the actual fighting, either picking up the pieces of a battle or being involved in side skirmishes. At the moment I'm sticking with release order for the Eighth Doctor's stories, though future Time War sets could change this. |
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Post by Digi on Mar 27, 2018 11:07:33 GMT
I agree with putting The Rulers of the Universe before The Sontaran Ordeal, but I’d argue that all Time War related Eighth Doctor stories should go after his first Time War set. The Starship of Theseus seems to be his first proper involvement with it. However The Conscript suggests that he's been evading the war effort for some time. Theseus could be his first time in an active war zone, as the previous stories only show him skirting around the actual fighting, either picking up the pieces of a battle or being involved in side skirmishes. At the moment I'm sticking with release order for the Eighth Doctor's stories, though future Time War sets could change this. I’m inclined to agree, but due to the companion situation - he’s picked one up and retained another in and by the end of Time War 1, whereas he’s travelling solo in River/CDNM. I suppose that could change by the end of the 8/TW series, but for now, it’s my preferred read of the McGann chronology. |
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Post by shallacatop on Mar 27, 2018 11:27:50 GMT
Fair points; the timeline not being completely linear works well for the Time War! So I've had a little bit of downtime during work, and have compiled a list of stories that Big Finish have produced, explicitly involving the Time War, since their licence acquisition of it: ![]()  That's 33 stories so far, with another 12 to come just from the Eighth Doctor range, and presumably there's more Gallifrey to come. I find that amazing and I've enjoyed each and every one of them. |
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Post by Digi on Mar 27, 2018 23:37:33 GMT
Fleeting thought: when the War Master story picks up again in his own box set in The Good Master, after The Devil You Know, there's probably enough wiggle room to bump the rest of the War Master set out after the end of GTW1. I don't know if I like how that flows, but in Only the Good: [*]In The Good Master, he has clearly been on Arcking for some time
[*]The following story, The Sky Man, seems to take place over months or even years
[*]The War seems to be escalating significantly in the closing moments of The Heavenly Paradigm However in GTW1: [*]In Desperate Measures, Romana indicates that the War has only been fought for "months" from Gallifrey's POV
[*]The Dalek attack on Project Revenant in Desperate Measures is just a response to the ongoing Time Lord actions in GTW1. It does not appear to be a significant escalation of hostilities It's not flawless, and as we well know, trying to come up with a timeline for a temporal war is going to be problematic at best, but it's something to consider. |
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sherlock
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Post by sherlock on Mar 28, 2018 10:28:28 GMT
Fleeting thought: when the War Master story picks up again in his own box set in The Good Master, after The Devil You Know, there's probably enough wiggle room to bump the rest of the War Master set out after the end of GTW1. I don't know if I like how that flows, but in Only the Good: [*]In The Good Master, he has clearly been on Arcking for some time
[*]The following story, The Sky Man, seems to take place over months or even years
[*]The War seems to be escalating significantly in the closing moments of The Heavenly Paradigm However in GTW1: [*]In Desperate Measures, Romana indicates that the War has only been fought for "months" from Gallifrey's POV
[*]The Dalek attack on Project Revenant in Desperate Measures is just a response to the ongoing Time Lord actions in GTW1. It does not appear to be a significant escalation of hostilities It's not flawless, and as we well know, trying to come up with a timeline for a temporal war is going to be problematic at best, but it's something to consider. You make interesting points. I've moved it accordingly to just after The Devil You Know. I hope Big Finish do explore somehow the consequences of The Heavenly Paradigm, given its such a game-changer for the entire War according to the Master. |
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