sherlock
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Post by sherlock on Feb 27, 2018 13:03:24 GMT
Below is a listening/watching order for the Time War, as making a timeline for a war waged across time seemed a bit fruitless. I intend to update as more releases come.
The Saga of The Last Great Time War: Prelude: -Tensions between the Daleks and Time Lords build over centuries, as hints emerge of a coming temporal conflict Fields of Terror Across the Darkened City The Bonfires of the Vanities Falling Day of the Daleks Frontier in Space Planet of the Daleks Genesis of the Daleks Terror of the Zygons Return of the Daleks The Dalek Revenge The Revisionists Resurrection of the Daleks The Reaping The Apocalypse Element Remembrance of the Daleks The Genocide Machine Damaged Goods Random Ghosts The Lights of Skaro The Company of Friends: Mary’s Story The Time of the Daleks Weapon of Choice The Inquiry A Blind Eye Panacea Arbitration Extermination Renaissance Ascension Dark Eyes: The Great War Dark Eyes: Fugitives Dark Eyes: Tangled Web Dark Eyes: X and the Daleks Dark Eyes: Eyes of the Master Dark Eyes: The Death of Hope Dark Eyes: The Reviled Dark Eyes: Masterplan Dark Eyes: Rule of the Eminence Doom Coalition: The Crucible of Souls Doom Coalition: Ship in a Bottle Doom Coalition: Songs of Love Doom Coalition: The Side of the Angels Doom Coalition: Stop the Clock Ravenous: Deeptime Frontier Ravenous: Companion Piece Birth of a Legend The Master of Callous: Call for the Dead The Master of Callous: The Glittering Prize The Master of Callous: The Persistence of Dreams The Master of Callous: Sins of the Father An Ocean of Sawdust
The Conflict: Act 1: Outbreak -The Time Lords make a stand against the ascendant Dalek Empire Time War: Celestial Intervention Time War: Soldier Obscura
Act 2: Battered by the Storm -Refusing to join his people’s cause, the Doctor is caught in the crossfire as all-out war begins Museum Peace Ghost of Christmas Past Osskah Natural Regression The Rulers of the Universe The Sontaran Ordeal Day of the Vashta Nerada A Heart on Both Sides
Act 3: The Master of War -As the War escalates, the Master seeks opportunities amidst the chaos Rage of the Time Lords: The Survivor Rage of the Time Lords: The Coney Island Chameleon Concealed Weapon Rage of the Time Lords: The Missing Link Rage of the Time Lords: Darkness and Light Cyber-Reality: Telepresence Cyber-Reality: Code Silver Cyber-Reality: Master of Worlds Only the Good: Beneath the Viscoid Time War: The Devil You Know
Act 4: The Resurrection -The founder of the Time Lords is resurrected to lead his people once more Time War: Desperate Measures Time War: Havoc Time War: Partisans Time War: Collateral Time War: Assassins
Act 5: The Master Plan -The Master enacts a scheme to end the War in his favour Only the Good: The Good Master Only the Good: The Sky Man Only the Good: The Heavenly Paradigm
Act 6: The Fall of a Good Man -The Doctor battles to save lives in a universe torn apart by war The Time War: The Starship of Theseus The Time War: Echoes of War The Time War: The Conscript The Time War: One Life The Time War: The Lords of Terror The Time War: Planet of the Ogrons The Time War: In the Garden of Death The Time War: Jonah The Time War: State of Bliss The Time War: The Famished Lands The Time War: Fugitive in Time The Time War: The War Valeyard All Hands on Deck The Legacy of Time: Lies in Ruins The Night of the Doctor
Act 7: The Doctor of War -A man once known as the Doctor fights on as the War enters its final stages A Prologue Ambush Lost Patrol The Third Wise Man Only the Monstrous: The Innocent Only the Monstrous: The Thousand Worlds Only the Monstrous: The Heart of the Battle Infernal Devices: Legion of the Lost Infernal Devices: A Thing of Guile Infernal Devices: The Neverwhen Agents of Chaos: The Shadow Vortex Agents of Chaos: The Eternity Cage Agents of Chaos: Eye of Harmony Casualties of War: Pretty Lies Casualties of War: The Lady of Obsidian Casualties of War: The Enigma Dimension The Stranger The Whole Thing’s Bananas Engines of War The Plague of Dreams The Last Day The Day of the Doctor
Aftermath: -Worlds have died and civilisations have burnt, survivors of the War pick up the pieces in a changed universe The Bleeding Heart The Oncoming Storm Battle Scars The Catalyst Empathy Games The Time Vampire Rose The End of the World The Unquiet Dead Dalek The Other Side The Long Game Father's Day Weapons of Past Destruction The Bidding War Bad Wolf/The Parting of the Ways I am a Dalek The Futurists School Reunion Rise of the Cybermen/The Age of Steel Army of Ghosts/Doomsday The Runaway Bride Gridlock Daleks in Manhattan/Evolution of the Daleks Utopia/The Sound of Drums/Last of the Time Lords The Sontaran Stratagem/The Poison Sky The Doctor’s Daughter The Stolen Earth/Journey's End The Forgotten The Eyeless Prisoner of the Daleks Keeping Up With The Joneses The Mad Woman in the Attic Don’t Step on the Grass The Waters of Mars The End of Time The Beast Below Victory of the Daleks Nothing O’Clock The Then and The Now Pull to Open Outrun The Judas Goatee The One Downtime Running to Stay Still First Rule The Organ Grinder Kill God Fast Asleep Gently Pulls The Strings Physician, Heal Thyself The Doctor's Wife Time in a Bottle Kings of Infinite Space Whodunnit? Someone I Once Knew Sky Jacks The Name of the Doctor The Day of the Doctor The Time of the Doctor Four Doctors Dark Water/Death in Heaven Face the Raven Heaven Sent Hell Bent Divorced, Beheaded, Regenerated The Broken Clock The Clockwise War
In Parallel: -In another universe, another War leaves reality on the brink of collapse and another Doctor must pick up the pieces The Unbound Universe: The Library in the Body The Unbound Universe: Planet X The Unbound Universe: The Very Dark Thing The Unbound Universe: The Emporium at the End Ruler of the Universe: The City and The Clock Ruler of the Universe: Asking for a Friend Ruler of the Universe: Truant Ruler of the Universe: The True Saviour of the Universe
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Feb 27, 2018 14:41:40 GMT
That's pretty good 
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Post by Digi on Feb 28, 2018 0:11:44 GMT
You know what I've been pondering for the last week or so, is whether Random Ghosts & Lights of Skaro (from New Benny Vol 1) should be considered War stories. What I get hung up on in particular is that a) Ace is a CIA agent (in training?) in that box set, which fits with IE/EL/TW1-era Ace; and b) having a Gallifreyan operative time-lock Skaro seems like...well, a rather hostile act.
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Post by Wolfie on Feb 28, 2018 3:26:41 GMT
Splendid work organising it all there.  You know what I've been pondering for the last week or so, is whether Random Ghosts & Lights of Skaro (from New Benny Vol 1) should be considered War stories. What I get hung up on in particular is that a) Ace is a CIA agent (in training?) in that box set, which fits with IE/EL/TW1-era Ace; and b) having a Gallifreyan operative time-lock Skaro seems like...well, a rather hostile act. You can make a solid argument for it. At a guess, I think the main distinction would come down to whether the lead-up stories to the War count as part of the engagement itself.  Like... - Genesis has the CIA interfering in the Daleks' development;
- A Device of Death has the Doctor diverted again to kickstart what ultimately become the Movellans;
- Resurrection has the Daleks manufacture assassins for the High Council (in response to Genesis or Device, maybe);
- The Apocalypse Element has their first invasion of Gallifrey, and;
- Remembrance blows up Skaro (or at least, a Skaro) with a Gallifreyan stellar manipulator.
Coupled with the Benny set, they're all important events between the Time Lords and the Daleks. But... can they be considered battles in the War itself?
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sherlock
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Post by sherlock on Feb 28, 2018 9:22:53 GMT
Splendid work organising it all there.  You know what I've been pondering for the last week or so, is whether Random Ghosts & Lights of Skaro (from New Benny Vol 1) should be considered War stories. What I get hung up on in particular is that a) Ace is a CIA agent (in training?) in that box set, which fits with IE/EL/TW1-era Ace; and b) having a Gallifreyan operative time-lock Skaro seems like...well, a rather hostile act. You can make a solid argument for it. At a guess, I think the main distinction would come down to whether the lead-up stories to the War count as part of the engagement itself.  Like... - Genesis has the CIA interfering in the Daleks' development;
- A Device of Death has the Doctor diverted again to kickstart what ultimately become the Movellans;
- Resurrection has the Daleks manufacture assassins for the High Council (in response to Genesis or Device, maybe);
- The Apocalypse Element has their first invasion of Gallifrey, and;
- Remembrance blows up Skaro (or at least, a Skaro) with a Gallifreyan stellar manipulator.
Coupled with the Benny set, they're all important events between the Time Lords and the Daleks. But... can they be considered battles in the War itself? I did consider putting in a prequels section including stories which either show hostilities between the Time Lords and Daleks or otherwise hint towards the War including: Genesis of the Daleks Resurrection of the Daleks The Apocalypse Element Patient Zero Remembrance of the Daleks Damaged Goods Random Ghosts The Lights of Skaro The Time of the Daleks Weapon of Choice Square One The Inquiry A Blind Eye Panacea Arbitration Extermination Ascension Dark Eyes 1 Dark Eyes 2 Doom Coalition 3 Doom Coalition 4
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Feb 28, 2018 12:59:46 GMT
Splendid work organising it all there.  You know what I've been pondering for the last week or so, is whether Random Ghosts & Lights of Skaro (from New Benny Vol 1) should be considered War stories. What I get hung up on in particular is that a) Ace is a CIA agent (in training?) in that box set, which fits with IE/EL/TW1-era Ace; and b) having a Gallifreyan operative time-lock Skaro seems like...well, a rather hostile act. You can make a solid argument for it. At a guess, I think the main distinction would come down to whether the lead-up stories to the War count as part of the engagement itself.  Like... - Genesis has the CIA interfering in the Daleks' development;
- A Device of Death has the Doctor diverted again to kickstart what ultimately become the Movellans;
- Resurrection has the Daleks manufacture assassins for the High Council (in response to Genesis or Device, maybe);
- The Apocalypse Element has their first invasion of Gallifrey, and;
- Remembrance blows up Skaro (or at least, a Skaro) with a Gallifreyan stellar manipulator.
Coupled with the Benny set, they're all important events between the Time Lords and the Daleks. But... can they be considered battles in the War itself? I'd say they are all part of a Temporal Cold War before the Last Great Time War kicks off
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sherlock
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Post by sherlock on Mar 2, 2018 13:08:00 GMT
Edited to add stories that could be considered prequels to the war, either featuring hostilities between the Daleks and Time Lords or otherwise hinting at the coming Time War
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Post by polarbear on Mar 11, 2018 18:20:04 GMT
There's actually a great Time War story in, of all things, The Twelve Doctors of Christmas. The Eighth Doctor's story there, Ghost of Christmas Past, is remarkably good. He's solo, no companions. The Time War's been getting him down for a while, and he's really down about it.
To even say much about why I think it has the continuity I'd assign it would be spoilers, as it's kind of a mystery story, but (a) I suspect it's near The Sontaran Ordeal & Day of the Vashta Nerada, with how beaten down he is, and (b) there's a Short Trip you've placed near the outbreak of the Time War that almost definitely has to go after this short story, so there's a bit of a muddle to walk through.
Some really good stories in that Twelve Doctors of Christmas collection; I'd recommend it.
EDIT: Actually, one could also add the older Eighth Doctor's perspective from Mary's Story (main Range #153A). If you wanted to go crazy about it, you could even add the perspective of Leela-as-narrator in CC's The Catalyst/Empathy Games/The Time Vampire, where she's obviously narrating from a time subsequent to The War Doctor: Casualties of War: "The Lady of Obsidian," but before the time lock at the end of the Time War. But you might not want to get that crazy. :^)
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sherlock
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Post by sherlock on Mar 12, 2018 14:21:15 GMT
There's actually a great Time War story in, of all things, The Twelve Doctors of Christmas. The Eighth Doctor's story there, Ghost of Christmas Past, is remarkably good. He's solo, no companions. The Time War's been getting him down for a while, and he's really down about it. To even say much about why I think it has the continuity I'd assign it would be spoilers, as it's kind of a mystery story, but (a) I suspect it's near The Sontaran Ordeal & Day of the Vashta Nerada, with how beaten down he is, and (b) there's a Short Trip you've placed near the outbreak of the Time War that almost definitely has to go after this short story, so there's a bit of a muddle to walk through. Some really good stories in that Twelve Doctors of Christmas collection; I'd recommend it. EDIT: Actually, one could also add the older Eighth Doctor's perspective from Mary's Story (main Range #153A). If you wanted to go crazy about it, you could even add the perspective of Leela-as-narrator in CC's The Catalyst/Empathy Games/The Time Vampire, where she's obviously narrating from a time subsequent to The War Doctor: Casualties of War: "The Lady of Obsidian," but before the time lock at the end of the Time War. But you might not want to get that crazy. :^) I might be tempted to add an aftermath section including Leela's CCs and the New Series stories that deal with the war's aftermath. Mary's Story I was torn about which Doctor's perspective to place it, if younger in the prequels and if older I'd say soon before Night of the Doctor, given how grumpy and worn down he is. At the moment I'm limiting the order to just TV and Big Finish (as that's what I'm mainly familiar with). If I get the time I might see if I can work in the prose stuff, and maybe Titan's comics. I might check out the Twelve Doctors collection at some point. Edit: By the way, welcome to the forum!
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Post by shallacatop on Mar 19, 2018 20:10:48 GMT
This is great work and I’m glad to see stories like Genesis, Resurrection and Remembrance of the Daleks are all included, as well as audios like The Apocalypse Elemenf. I really like the term “Temporal Cold War”.
The only thing I would say is that I feel like The War Master set comes later on in the Time War, but I understand that you’ve done it to fit in with his appearance in Gallifrey, which I appreciate is clearly the very beginning of the Time War. Similar goes for the Time War interventions in the First Doctor Companion Chronicles, they’re seemingly happening on the Last Day of the Time War, but they’re effecting the First Doctor so you’ve listed them very early on. I suppose the debates and subjective placements only support how crazy the Time War should be!
As an aside, would, say, Terror of the Zygons be justified in going on the list? They’re on Earth following the destruction of their planet, which we later learn in The Day of the Doctor, was a result of the Time War.
I’ve just realised the finales of all of RTD’s series of Doctor Who all involve an enemy who’s escaped the Time War. The Emperor, The Cult of Skaro, the Master, Davros and Rassilon.
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sherlock
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Post by sherlock on Mar 19, 2018 20:23:32 GMT
This is great work and I’m glad to see stories like Genesis, Resurrection and Remembrance of the Daleks are all included, as well as audios like The Apocalypse Elemenf. I really like the term “Temporal Cold War”. The only thing I would say is that I feel like The War Master set comes later on in the Time War, but I understand that you’ve done it to fit in with his appearance in Gallifrey, which I appreciate is clearly the very beginning of the Time War. Similar goes for the Time War interventions in the First Doctor Companion Chronicles, they’re seemingly happening on the Last Day of the Time War, but they’re effecting the First Doctor so you’ve listed them very early on. I suppose the debates and subjective placements only support how crazy the Time War should be! As an aside, would, say, Terror of the Zygons be justified in going on the list? They’re on Earth following the destruction of their planet, which we later learn in The Day of the Doctor, was a result of the Time War. I’ve just realised the finales of all of RTD’s series of Doctor Who all involve an enemy who’s escaped the Time War. The Emperor, The Cult of Skaro, the Master, Davros and Rassilon. My first impression of the War Master set was the same, but the Gallifrey set's tight chronology did away with that. Though given it's a Time War, I suppose it's conceivable they inadvertently summoned the Master from a later point in the War. The First Doctor set was tricky, as far as I understand the only direct reference to the War is in the final story with hints of temporal meddling in the first three. So the first three appear in the prologue (which is ordered primarily from the Doctor's point of view) and the fourth is placed just before the stories set in the final days. I hadn't thought of Terror of the Zygons but given the line in Day I suppose it belongs there. I will add it.
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Post by shallacatop on Mar 19, 2018 20:31:24 GMT
Sorry, I didn’t notice you’d put The Plague of Dreams in the final days, my mistake there. You’re absolutely right about the First Doctor Companion Chronicles set; the first three are meddling and the fourth is more explicit and set during the final days. On the subject of that, I suppose you should include The End of Time, as it’s happening concurrent with events in The Day of the Doctor.
Great list, as I said. I think I’ll spend some of this evening listening to All Hands on Deck again.
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Post by Digi on Mar 26, 2018 22:24:42 GMT
I just noticed - River 1.4 "The Rulers of the Universe" is missing from the list. As with most releases in this meta-series it's a bit difficult to place, so I'm opting just to plop it in right before The Sontaran Ordeal, for no more compelling reason than that River Vol 1 came out before CDNM Vol 1.
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Post by shallacatop on Mar 27, 2018 9:34:33 GMT
I agree with putting The Rulers of the Universe before The Sontaran Ordeal, but I’d argue that all Time War related Eighth Doctor stories should go after his first Time War set. The Starship of Theseus seems to be his first proper involvement with it.
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Mar 27, 2018 9:42:06 GMT
I agree with putting The Rulers of the Universe before The Sontaran Ordeal, but I’d argue that all Time War related Eighth Doctor stories should go after his first Time War set. The Starship of Theseus seems to be his first proper involvement with it. His comments in “Starship...” suggests that he knows of the War but is petulantly attempting to avoid it (unlike by the time of “Night of the Doctor” where it appears he’s trying to do good while the War raged). So I think there are more “eight encounters the War for the first time” stories to come. Romana is certain the Doctor isn’t going to fight in Gallifrey Time War, so they’ve obviously covered that ground in some encounter before the Balloon went up.
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sherlock
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Post by sherlock on Mar 27, 2018 10:17:47 GMT
I agree with putting The Rulers of the Universe before The Sontaran Ordeal, but I’d argue that all Time War related Eighth Doctor stories should go after his first Time War set. The Starship of Theseus seems to be his first proper involvement with it. However The Conscript suggests that he's been evading the war effort for some time. Theseus could be his first time in an active war zone, as the previous stories only show him skirting around the actual fighting, either picking up the pieces of a battle or being involved in side skirmishes. At the moment I'm sticking with release order for the Eighth Doctor's stories, though future Time War sets could change this.
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Post by Digi on Mar 27, 2018 11:07:33 GMT
I agree with putting The Rulers of the Universe before The Sontaran Ordeal, but I’d argue that all Time War related Eighth Doctor stories should go after his first Time War set. The Starship of Theseus seems to be his first proper involvement with it. However The Conscript suggests that he's been evading the war effort for some time. Theseus could be his first time in an active war zone, as the previous stories only show him skirting around the actual fighting, either picking up the pieces of a battle or being involved in side skirmishes. At the moment I'm sticking with release order for the Eighth Doctor's stories, though future Time War sets could change this. I’m inclined to agree, but due to the companion situation - he’s picked one up and retained another in and by the end of Time War 1, whereas he’s travelling solo in River/CDNM. I suppose that could change by the end of the 8/TW series, but for now, it’s my preferred read of the McGann chronology.
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Post by shallacatop on Mar 27, 2018 11:27:50 GMT
Fair points; the timeline not being completely linear works well for the Time War! So I've had a little bit of downtime during work, and have compiled a list of stories that Big Finish have produced, explicitly involving the Time War, since their licence acquisition of it: ![]()  That's 33 stories so far, with another 12 to come just from the Eighth Doctor range, and presumably there's more Gallifrey to come. I find that amazing and I've enjoyed each and every one of them.
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Post by Digi on Mar 27, 2018 23:37:33 GMT
Fleeting thought: when the War Master story picks up again in his own box set in The Good Master, after The Devil You Know, there's probably enough wiggle room to bump the rest of the War Master set out after the end of GTW1. I don't know if I like how that flows, but in Only the Good: [*]In The Good Master, he has clearly been on Arcking for some time [*]The following story, The Sky Man, seems to take place over months or even years [*]The War seems to be escalating significantly in the closing moments of The Heavenly Paradigm However in GTW1: [*]In Desperate Measures, Romana indicates that the War has only been fought for "months" from Gallifrey's POV [*]The Dalek attack on Project Revenant in Desperate Measures is just a response to the ongoing Time Lord actions in GTW1. It does not appear to be a significant escalation of hostilities It's not flawless, and as we well know, trying to come up with a timeline for a temporal war is going to be problematic at best, but it's something to consider.
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sherlock
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Post by sherlock on Mar 28, 2018 10:28:28 GMT
Fleeting thought: when the War Master story picks up again in his own box set in The Good Master, after The Devil You Know, there's probably enough wiggle room to bump the rest of the War Master set out after the end of GTW1. I don't know if I like how that flows, but in Only the Good: [*]In The Good Master, he has clearly been on Arcking for some time [*]The following story, The Sky Man, seems to take place over months or even years [*]The War seems to be escalating significantly in the closing moments of The Heavenly Paradigm However in GTW1: [*]In Desperate Measures, Romana indicates that the War has only been fought for "months" from Gallifrey's POV [*]The Dalek attack on Project Revenant in Desperate Measures is just a response to the ongoing Time Lord actions in GTW1. It does not appear to be a significant escalation of hostilities It's not flawless, and as we well know, trying to come up with a timeline for a temporal war is going to be problematic at best, but it's something to consider. You make interesting points. I've moved it accordingly to just after The Devil You Know. I hope Big Finish do explore somehow the consequences of The Heavenly Paradigm, given its such a game-changer for the entire War according to the Master.
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