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Post by shallacatop on Jan 23, 2019 19:38:10 GMT
Added the War Master’s story in River Song 5 to the saga. I’ve put it after Cyber-Reality just out of release order, it could easily go before it. I think we’ll get a better picture of where Concealed Weapon slots in once Rage of the Time Lords has been released; they’re supposed to be linked.
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Post by sherlock on Mar 17, 2019 19:01:53 GMT
A few minor changes as I revisited the timeline ahead of Gallifrey: Time War 2 later this month
Added Falling, The Revisionists and Dark Eyes 3 to the Prelude. Falling and The Revisionists both contain little hints regarding the War, and a re-listen to Desperate Measures brought to my attention Romana’s mention of Narvin’s past side-missions as ‘Co-Ordinator in Extremis’ to try to avert the future war. It’s my understanding that Co-Ordinator in Extremis is what Narvin claims to be acting as in Dark Eyes 3.
I also moved Concealed Weapon to the start of Act 2. It just works better as an opener because it builds up the Master’s appearance, whereas in Cyber-Reality he arrives in the midst of the action (I also for completeist reasons added the other two parts that constituent the ongoing Cyber-Reality story, leaving off Game Theory as its pretty much standalone).
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Post by Digi on Mar 17, 2019 19:26:12 GMT
A few minor changes as I revisited the timeline ahead of Gallifrey: Time War 2 later this month Added Falling, The Revisionists and Dark Eyes 3 to the Prelude. Falling and The Revisionists both contain little hints regarding the War, and a re-listen to Desperate Measures brought to my attention Romana’s mention of Narvin’s past side-missions as ‘Co-Ordinator in Extremis’ to try to avert the future war. It’s my understanding that Co-Ordinator in Extremis is what Narvin claims to be acting as in Dark Eyes 3. I also moved Concealed Weapon to the start of Act 2. It just works better as an opener because it builds up the Master’s appearance, whereas in Cyber-Reality he arrives in the midst of the action (I also for completeist reasons added the other two parts that constituent the ongoing Cyber-Reality story, leaving off Game Theory as its pretty much standalone). Correct. While re-listening to Gallifrey over the last few days, the impression I came away with was that for Gallifrey, it means that Dark Eyes 3 should be slotted in between Enemy Lines and Time War 1. That's probably not terribly helpful in a broader list like this
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Mar 21, 2019 20:09:30 GMT
There’s also a reference to the Matrix having been warning the Time Lords about the upcoming Time War for decades which is presumably a reference to Doom Coalition.
And Livia is on her second term by Time War 1 so presumably quite a bit of Time has passed since Enemy Lines, though I must admit I have no idea how long a term is on Gallifrey.
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Post by Digi on Mar 21, 2019 20:46:00 GMT
Not Livia-related, but some random Gallifrey Time War 2 factoids... - there's apparently a 5 year gap between episodes 3 and 4 - there's a mention during GTW2 (I believe episode 3 but it might've been 4) that Ollistra has been given 'special dispensation'
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Mar 21, 2019 21:52:28 GMT
Another thing to point out is that a “General Rasmus” was mentioned as a potential candidate for the War Council to put forward for the Presidency, along with Ollistra in Desperate Measures. I’m guessing it’s the same Rasmus that will recur in future stories.
Also the time frame during GTW1 seems to be like this:
Celestial Intervention - Time War is declared
Soldier Obscura - Immediately after Celestial Intervention
The Devil You Know - Immediately after Soldier Obscura (Although The Master and Leela travel to a point decades into the War, where the events on Arcking occurred months previously)
Desperate Measures - Two months after Celestial Intervention.
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Post by sherlock on Mar 22, 2019 13:40:53 GMT
Right then we have a whole new act for Desperate Measures and GTW2. I’ve split up the War Master’s acts, so the Cole trilogy is now its own entity.
One little bit from GTW2 kind of confirms that the Eighth Doctor: The Time War is after it. One of the War Council mentions setting up offworld training camps and Ollistra getting special dispensation. One of said camps turns up in Series 1 of Eighth Doctor: The Time War, overseen by Ollistra.
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Post by Digi on Mar 22, 2019 13:55:16 GMT
Right then we have a whole new act for Desperate Measures and GTW2. I’ve split up the War Master’s acts, so the Cole trilogy is now its own entity. One little bit from GTW2 kind of confirms that the Eighth Doctor: The Time War is after it. One of the War Council mentions setting up offworld training camps and Ollistra getting special dispensation. One of said camps turns up in Series 1 of Eighth Doctor: The Time War, overseen by Ollistra. The way I heard it, these two things as separate agenda items, not as one and the same. I took it to mean that offworld training camps were being set up, and that Ollistra was getting "special dispensation" to do....whatever. She's pretty creative in her temporal mucking-about.
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Post by shallacatop on Mar 22, 2019 14:08:52 GMT
Right then we have a whole new act for Desperate Measures and GTW2. I’ve split up the War Master’s acts, so the Cole trilogy is now its own entity. One little bit from GTW2 kind of confirms that the Eighth Doctor: The Time War is after it. One of the War Council mentions setting up offworld training camps and Ollistra getting special dispensation. One of said camps turns up in Series 1 of Eighth Doctor: The Time War, overseen by Ollistra. The way I heard it, these two things as separate agenda items, not as one and the same. I took it to mean that offworld training camps were being set up, and that Ollistra was getting "special dispensation" to do....whatever. She's pretty creative in her temporal mucking-about. Yes, I interpreted it as the same. They're two different agendas, that we know are combined at some point, but they seemed separate in the dialogue.
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Post by Digi on Mar 22, 2019 14:14:06 GMT
Kinda mangled the English language in that first sentence, didn't I?
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Mar 22, 2019 14:33:09 GMT
One thing I’m wondering is whether or not Only the Good should be placed later than GTW1 as its indicated to be much later in the War than the first two months.
I guess it depends mostly on whether you want a Chronology or a listening order, because Only the Good works best where it is for a listening order but in terms of Chronology is more likely later on.
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Post by sherlock on Mar 22, 2019 14:45:55 GMT
Right then we have a whole new act for Desperate Measures and GTW2. I’ve split up the War Master’s acts, so the Cole trilogy is now its own entity. One little bit from GTW2 kind of confirms that the Eighth Doctor: The Time War is after it. One of the War Council mentions setting up offworld training camps and Ollistra getting special dispensation. One of said camps turns up in Series 1 of Eighth Doctor: The Time War, overseen by Ollistra. The way I heard it, these two things as separate agenda items, not as one and the same. I took it to mean that offworld training camps were being set up, and that Ollistra was getting "special dispensation" to do....whatever. She's pretty creative in her temporal mucking-about. Yes they were, I didn’t phrase that particularly well. Both those items can be taken as set up for Ollistra’s status in Eighth Doctor, and later on War Doctor audios, as well as the specific existence of the camp.
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Post by sherlock on Mar 22, 2019 15:00:02 GMT
One thing I’m wondering is whether or not Only the Good should be placed later than GTW1 as its indicated to be much later in the War than the first two months. I guess it depends mostly on whether you want a Chronology or a listening order, because Only the Good works best where it is for a listening order but in terms of Chronology is more likely later on. Well it’s only two months relative to those on Gallifrey, everywhere else in the universe the war may have been waging much longer. Hypothetically it’s entirely possible a battalion of Time Lords could depart Gallifrey by TARDIS the day after the declaration of hostilities in Celestial Intervention, fight on an alien front against the Daleks for 20 years, and then return to Gallifrey by TARDIS the day before Desperate Measures. From their perspective the war would have been going for decades, the prominence of time travel in the war really makes estimates of duration useless. Romana does mention in Desperate Measures that centuries worth of fighting has already taken place. Only the Good specifically I’ve now split it so the Cole trilogy is after GTW1 and 2, with only Beneath The Viscoid prior to The Devil You Know due to the clear link between them.
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Mar 22, 2019 15:22:59 GMT
Oh and in Desperate Measures they mention that they’re starting Conscription, and then they look at a list of Patrexes who are to be conscripted, but presumably this means that All Hands on Deck may go after Desperate Measures.
Plus it makes sense that the Doctor seems to have been more involved in the War by his disheveled look by the time Susan discovers her hypercubes.
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Post by Digi on Mar 22, 2019 15:26:57 GMT
I need charts and diagrams
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Post by sherlock on Mar 22, 2019 15:43:09 GMT
Oh and in Desperate Measures they mention that they’re starting Conscription, and then they look at a list of Patrexes who are to be conscripted, but presumably this means that All Hands on Deck may go after Desperate Measures. Plus it makes sense that the Doctor seems to have been more involved in the War by his disheveled look by the time Susan discovers her hypercubes. Hmm good point. I kinda assumed Susan would be amongst the first on call ups given she’s actually fought the Daleks before, but the dishevelled eighth Doctor does make me wonder. I interpreted the scene in Desperate Measures as referring to the latest list of call-ups, i.e. there had been more beforehand, rather than marking the beginning of conscription. Ooh thinking about I think the Doctor does mention Time Lord annexations in All Hands on Deck which is something that occurs later in the War. Right I’ll move it to The Good Man act.
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Mar 22, 2019 16:10:11 GMT
Oh and in Desperate Measures they mention that they’re starting Conscription, and then they look at a list of Patrexes who are to be conscripted, but presumably this means that All Hands on Deck may go after Desperate Measures. Plus it makes sense that the Doctor seems to have been more involved in the War by his disheveled look by the time Susan discovers her hypercubes. Hmm good point. I kinda assumed Susan would be amongst the first on call ups given she’s actually fought the Daleks before, but the dishevelled eighth Doctor does make me wonder. I interpreted the scene in Desperate Measures as referring to the latest list of call-ups, i.e. there had been more beforehand, rather than marking the beginning of conscription. Ooh thinking about I think the Doctor does mention Time Lord annexations in All Hands on Deck which is something that occurs later in the War. Right I’ll move it to The Good Man act. There is a reference in Celestial Intervention that says they’ll start calling Time Lords from all over to join in the War effort, but then it seemed to me like in Desperate Measures it shifted from asking for help to actual conscription. Plus it makes sense that they’d be so desperate by that stage that they’re conscripting high ranking Time Lords and Renegades into the War effort. I’d also move Dark Eyes 3 to After Doom Coalition as Narvin is specifically visiting the past to try and avert the Time War, so presumably that’s shortly before Master of Callous for him where it’s been accepted that the War has pretty already begun except in formality.
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Post by Digi on Mar 22, 2019 16:27:48 GMT
Hmm good point. I kinda assumed Susan would be amongst the first on call ups given she’s actually fought the Daleks before, but the dishevelled eighth Doctor does make me wonder. I interpreted the scene in Desperate Measures as referring to the latest list of call-ups, i.e. there had been more beforehand, rather than marking the beginning of conscription. Ooh thinking about I think the Doctor does mention Time Lord annexations in All Hands on Deck which is something that occurs later in the War. Right I’ll move it to The Good Man act. There is a reference in Celestial Intervention that says they’ll start calling Time Lords from all over to join in the War effort, but then it seemed to me like in Desperate Measures it shifted from asking for help to actual conscription. Plus it makes sense that they’d be so desperate by that stage that they’re conscripting high ranking Time Lords and Renegades into the War effort. I’d also move Dark Eyes 3 to After Doom Coalition as Narvin is specifically visiting the past to try and avert the Time War, so presumably that’s shortly before Master of Callous for him where it’s been accepted that the War has pretty already begun except in formality. Ahhh wouldn’t that be completely dependent on whose POV we’re talking abou?
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Post by sherlock on Mar 22, 2019 16:32:27 GMT
Hmm good point. I kinda assumed Susan would be amongst the first on call ups given she’s actually fought the Daleks before, but the dishevelled eighth Doctor does make me wonder. I interpreted the scene in Desperate Measures as referring to the latest list of call-ups, i.e. there had been more beforehand, rather than marking the beginning of conscription. Ooh thinking about I think the Doctor does mention Time Lord annexations in All Hands on Deck which is something that occurs later in the War. Right I’ll move it to The Good Man act. There is a reference in Celestial Intervention that says they’ll start calling Time Lords from all over to join in the War effort, but then it seemed to me like in Desperate Measures it shifted from asking for help to actual conscription. Plus it makes sense that they’d be so desperate by that stage that they’re conscripting high ranking Time Lords and Renegades into the War effort. I’d also move Dark Eyes 3 to After Doom Coalition as Narvin is specifically visiting the past to try and avert the Time War, so presumably that’s shortly before Master of Callous for him where it’s been accepted that the War has pretty already begun except in formality. The prelude section is ordered from the Doctor’s perspective, with spin offs slotted in where they crossover with his timeline. This is just to stop it getting messy (Genesis of the Daleks for instance could go in three places depending whose perspective you follow).
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Mar 22, 2019 16:33:10 GMT
There is a reference in Celestial Intervention that says they’ll start calling Time Lords from all over to join in the War effort, but then it seemed to me like in Desperate Measures it shifted from asking for help to actual conscription. Plus it makes sense that they’d be so desperate by that stage that they’re conscripting high ranking Time Lords and Renegades into the War effort. I’d also move Dark Eyes 3 to After Doom Coalition as Narvin is specifically visiting the past to try and avert the Time War, so presumably that’s shortly before Master of Callous for him where it’s been accepted that the War has pretty already begun except in formality. Ahhh wouldn’t that be completely dependent on whose POV we’re talking abou? Well yeah actually I suppose so. From the perspective of the Doctor and the Daleks it’s before Doom Coalition but from Gallifrey’s perspective those events would occur a little later.
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