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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2018 3:45:09 GMT
I think I missed Class on its first run. The core premise struck me as DS9 for Who, so I'm a bit intrigued. I'm very tempted to pick up the audios in media res for a listen through and then watch the series after. Worked for Survivors. I can't recommend Class strongly enough, for all the reasons I've previously listed. I'd strongly recommend watching the series before the audios, coming in with the audios foreknowledge would detract a little from the immediete experience. Sure, I'll defer to your judgement. I'm very curious to see how everyone in Coal Hill fares over the episodes they were able to put out.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2018 7:29:50 GMT
I can't recommend Class strongly enough, for all the reasons I've previously listed. I'd strongly recommend watching the series before the audios, coming in with the audios foreknowledge would detract a little from the immediete experience. Sure, I'll defer to your judgement. I'm very curious to see how everyone in Coal Hill fares over the episodes they were able to put out.
IT IS ONE OF THE BEST THINGS. TRUST ME.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2018 8:18:58 GMT
I'm curious to see how Big Finish handle the eventual Doctor reuioun the series was building up for. Calpadi did state in an interview that he enjoyed working with the Class actors (and there are bones of Class's second series in Series 10) - I could him potentially returning for a one-off performance.
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Post by sherlock on Jul 9, 2018 8:30:45 GMT
and there are bones of Class's second series in Series 10 There are? I wasn't aware of any. I assume/hope if Volumes 1 and 2 sell well then a Big Finish Series 2 is on the cards, but I'd be very surprised if they got Capaldi to appear.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2018 8:47:03 GMT
and there are bones of Class's second series in Series 10 There are? I wasn't aware of any. I assume/hope if Volumes 1 and 2 sell well then a Big Finish Series 2 is on the cards, but I'd be very surprised if they got Capaldi to appear.
Very much so in the Twelfth Doctor's mentorship of Bill. If series two had gone ahead, I'd imagine they'd gone ahead with the reuioun and it's reprecussions.
I think Calpadi has to be appear, the series was leading up to the reuioun. As much as I'd appreciate a nod in the Thirteenth Doctor era, I'd rather keep the momentum of the series as is.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2018 8:56:07 GMT
and there are bones of Class's second series in Series 10 There are? I wasn't aware of any. I assume/hope if Volumes 1 and 2 sell well then a Big Finish Series 2 is on the cards, but I'd be very surprised if they got Capaldi to appear. Can't really see any parallels to Series 10 either apart from the most superficial that The Doctor was teaching Bill..but even then when he was in Class it wasn't as a teacher figure at all, he was in full on action siege mode. And I don't think if Capaldi were to sign up for BF that they'd use what will be his no-doubt very limited time in the studio on a Class reunion. That'd be niche. He's already done his part in giving the show "the rub" when it was on TV.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2018 9:09:59 GMT
There are? I wasn't aware of any. I assume/hope if Volumes 1 and 2 sell well then a Big Finish Series 2 is on the cards, but I'd be very surprised if they got Capaldi to appear. Can't really see any parallels to Series 10 either apart from the most superficial that The Doctor was teaching Bill..but even then when he was in Class it wasn't as a teacher figure at all, he was in full on action siege mode. And I don't think if Capaldi were to sign up for BF that they'd use what will be his no-doubt very limited time in the studio on a Class reunion. That'd be niche. He's already done his part in giving the show "the rub" when it was on TV.
If Class series two had gone ahead, we would have gone ahead with the reuioun with The Doctor and it's reprecussions and fed into Series 10. We know The Doctor wasn't okay and off his game from Tonight We Die, leading a bunch of teenagers to deal with Coal Hill and Quill enslaved to Charlie and this feed into The Return of Doctor Mysterio, leading to Grant accidently gaining his super hero abilities and subsquently screwing up his life, echoing Class's first season. That The Doctor feels guilty feels guilty over leaving a bunch of young people vulnerable is part of his impetus in taking Bill on (it's The Doctor, he doesn't get human aging), even if it's never fully addressed.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2018 9:14:48 GMT
Except the dating doesn't work at all and I'd imagine the reuioun would have been next year with Thirteen, the Thirteenth Doctor dealing with the shades. Sorry, everyone AUUUUUUUUUGH. But yeah, Class Series One defiently feeds into The Doctor taking Bill on. I can't imagine the series ending or approaching it's conclusion with anything now but a Calpadi apperance, though.
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Post by Whovitt on Jul 9, 2018 9:15:14 GMT
Can't really see any parallels to Series 10 either apart from the most superficial that The Doctor was teaching Bill..but even then when he was in Class it wasn't as a teacher figure at all, he was in full on action siege mode. And I don't think if Capaldi were to sign up for BF that they'd use what will be his no-doubt very limited time in the studio on a Class reunion. That'd be niche. He's already done his part in giving the show "the rub" when it was on TV.
If Class series two had gone ahead, we would have gone ahead with the reuioun with The Doctor and it's reprecussions and fed into Series 10. We know The Doctor wasn't okay and off his game from Tonight We Die, leading a bunch of teenagers to deal with Coal Hill and Quill enslaved to Charlie and this feed into The Return of Doctor Mysterio, leading to Grant accidently gaining his super hero abilities and subsquently screwing up his life, echoing Class's first season. That The Doctor feels guilty feels guilty over leaving a bunch of young people vulnerable is part of his impetus in taking Bill on (it's The Doctor, he doesn't get human aging), even if it's never fully addressed.
The "being in a bad place and later regretting decisions" thing actually makes a lot of sense when I think about it. But you put the catch there yourself - it's never fully addressed (or even remotely hinted at, for that matter). It's a great theory(!), but there's nothing to substantiate it, and I get the suspicion that there wasn't that much going on between Ness and Moffat in terms of plotting Capaldi's character arc, so it probably wasn't the original plan. It's a good one though!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2018 9:22:49 GMT
If Class series two had gone ahead, we would have gone ahead with the reuioun with The Doctor and it's reprecussions and fed into Series 10. We know The Doctor wasn't okay and off his game from Tonight We Die, leading a bunch of teenagers to deal with Coal Hill and Quill enslaved to Charlie and this feed into The Return of Doctor Mysterio, leading to Grant accidently gaining his super hero abilities and subsquently screwing up his life, echoing Class's first season. That The Doctor feels guilty feels guilty over leaving a bunch of young people vulnerable is part of his impetus in taking Bill on (it's The Doctor, he doesn't get human aging), even if it's never fully addressed.
The "being in a bad place and later regretting decisions" thing actually makes a lot of sense when I think about it. But you put the catch there yourself - it's never fully addressed (or even remotely hinted at, for that matter). It's a great theory(!), but there's nothing to substantiate it, and I get the suspicion that there wasn't that much going on between Ness and Moffat in terms of plotting Capaldi's character arc, so it probably wasn't the original plan. It's a good one though! Yes, fine head-canon but not part of the narrative. Saying The Doctor took Bill on out of guilt for having left some young people vulnerable isn't there in the Series 10 story at all. He took Bill on because she interested him and invigorated him again. As he said, because when she didn't understand something she smiled wheras everyone else frowned. He's taken on absolutely tonnes of young companions for over 50 years, Class or not. I'm quite sure Bill was happening anyway. She was unveiled before Class even started filming.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2018 9:37:10 GMT
Spoilers for the TV series. Also, the formatting for this for some reason has been messed up and I've got to help my housemate with a curry! Ness has talked about in interviews about how he wanted to tackle the idea of what happened to people to people after encountering The Doctor and that's the core of the show. Everything that happens in Class after is The Doctor's responsibility - from leaving these vulnerable teenagers and leaving Quill enslaved to Charlie in trying to distance himself from his actions in Hell Bent. It's the space the series finds itself in, especially with these vulnerable kids, making their way through the darkness, in a situation they never should have been placed in the first place. They were building up to a reuioun with The Doctor, albiet with Thirteen now that I've remembered the dates. In Series 10, The Doctor's trying to put a distance between the events of Hell Bent, his final days with River. Part of that is not looking into the shadows, which means avoiding the implications of his actions in For Tonight We Might Die. Taking Bill on, encouraging her, showing her potential is part of that. Taking Bill on is as much about encouraging her to reach her potential and her fresh eyes upon the universe, as it is about him dealing with the guilt of leaving those kids at Coal Hill to deal with The Tear. Kind of how he feels about what he did with those kids at Coal Hill and avoiding the guilt. It's defiently part of Series 10. Moving on from Hell Bent, River's death being real for him and Coal Hill isn't pretty (and doesn't ignore the reprecussions of his actions), but neccessary for The Doctor at this point in his life.
Additional spoiler tag for weird formatting reasons that doesn't make sense to me: I can't imagine there wasn't overlay between Moffatt and Ness - while Class was his show, Ness was still essentinally running under Moffatt, especially with Charlie's actions in the finale. Class. I really can't see it any other way that Class didn't inform Series 10, especially World Enough and Time/The Doctor Falls and Twice Upon A Time.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2018 9:50:42 GMT
Spoilers for the TV series. Ness has talked about in interviews about how he wanted to tackle the idea of what happened to people to people after encountering The Doctor and that's the core of the show. Everything that happens in Class after is The Doctor's responsibility - from leaving these vulnerable teenagers and leaving Quill enslaved to Charlie in trying to distance himself from his actions in Hell Bent. It's the space the series finds itself in, especially with these vulnerable kids, making their way through the darkness, in a situation they never should have been placed in the first place. They were building up to a reuioun with The Doctor, albiet with Thirteen now that I've remembered the dates. In Series 10, The Doctor's trying to put a distance between the events of Hell Bent, his final days with River. Part of that is not looking into the shadows, which means avoiding the implications of his actions in For Tonight We Might Die. Taking Bill on, encouraging her, showing her potential is part of that. Taking Bill on is as much about encouraging her to reach her potential and her fresh eyes upon the universe, as it is about him dealing with the guilt of leaving those kids at Coal Hill to deal with The Tear. Kind of how he feels about what he did with those kids at Coal Hill and avoiding the guilt. It's defiently part of Series 10. Moving on from Hell Bent, River's death being real for him and Coal Hill isn't pretty (and doesn't ignore the reprecussions of his actions), but neccessary for The Doctor at this point in his life.
I can't imagine there wasn't overlay between Moffatt and Ness - while Class was his show, Ness was still essentinally running under Moffatt, especially with Charlie's actions in the finale. Class. I really can't see it any other way that Class didn't inform Series 10, especially World Enough and Time/The Doctor Falls and Twice Upon A Time. Without comment from Moffat saying so I guess we can't prove or disprove that either way but I'd put the house on Class not even crossing his mind in the writing of The Doctor Falls and Twice Upon A Time - honestly both eps were discussed here at length and you're the first person who I remember even making a slight correlation. Moffat in those two episodes had to kill off a Doctor, re-introduce another old one, kill two Masters, write out two companions, bring back Mondasian Cybermen and cap his own era off all while leaving a clean slate for Chibnall - I think that was enough to be getting on with for him without letting Class inform anything.
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Post by mark687 on Jul 9, 2018 9:51:39 GMT
I still think there's no way Class should've been conceived of as a Doctor Who spin-off and definitely not one that had the Doctor appear in, it should've been set in its own universe.
Regards
mark687
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2018 10:06:21 GMT
Spoilers for the TV series. Ness has talked about in interviews about how he wanted to tackle the idea of what happened to people to people after encountering The Doctor and that's the core of the show. Everything that happens in Class after is The Doctor's responsibility - from leaving these vulnerable teenagers and leaving Quill enslaved to Charlie in trying to distance himself from his actions in Hell Bent. It's the space the series finds itself in, especially with these vulnerable kids, making their way through the darkness, in a situation they never should have been placed in the first place. They were building up to a reuioun with The Doctor, albiet with Thirteen now that I've remembered the dates. In Series 10, The Doctor's trying to put a distance between the events of Hell Bent, his final days with River. Part of that is not looking into the shadows, which means avoiding the implications of his actions in For Tonight We Might Die. Taking Bill on, encouraging her, showing her potential is part of that. Taking Bill on is as much about encouraging her to reach her potential and her fresh eyes upon the universe, as it is about him dealing with the guilt of leaving those kids at Coal Hill to deal with The Tear. Kind of how he feels about what he did with those kids at Coal Hill and avoiding the guilt. It's defiently part of Series 10. Moving on from Hell Bent, River's death being real for him and Coal Hill isn't pretty (and doesn't ignore the reprecussions of his actions), but neccessary for The Doctor at this point in his life.
I can't imagine there wasn't overlay between Moffatt and Ness - while Class was his show, Ness was still essentinally running under Moffatt, especially with Charlie's actions in the finale. Class. I really can't see it any other way that Class didn't inform Series 10, especially World Enough and Time/The Doctor Falls and Twice Upon A Time. Without comment from Moffat saying so I guess we can't prove or disprove that either way but I'd put the house on Class not even crossing his mind in the writing of The Doctor Falls and Twice Upon A Time - honestly both eps were discussed here at length and you're the first person who I remember even making a slight correlation. Moffat in those two episodes had to kill off a Doctor, re-introduce another old one, kill two Masters, write out two companions, bring back Mondasian Cybermen and cap his own era off all while leaving a clean slate for Chibnall - I think that was enough to be getting on with for him without letting Class inform anything.
The Doctor been determined to save Bill after being so careless with her life and leaving her a message in her subconcious and saving the children from their impemending doom defiently refers back to his feelings about leaving those teenagers in Coal Hill (there were young-ish?) in World Enough and Time/The Doctor Falls and and Twelve facing his regrets in Twice Upon A Time. I'd say it counts You don't have to refer to things explictly. It's there. I'd imagine people didn't want to spoil Class for the Americans fans by drawing attention to it. I remember you had mixed feelings about Class, so your less likely to remember!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2018 10:15:02 GMT
But.....he'd always - in every incarnation - have fought to save those kids (and adults) from the Cybermen. It's rather the character. We're not going to agree, I guess, but I think The Doctor Falls is written exactly the same even if Class never happened. Matt's Doctor's finale also by Moffat of course did much the same, staying in one place to die protecting one "insignificant" village years before Class was conceived. What did he say? He did it because it was right, decent and just kind. Not because he met the Class gang once.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2018 10:18:31 GMT
I still think there's no way Class should've been conceived of as a Doctor Who spin-off and definitely not one that had the Doctor appear in, it should've been set in its own universe. Regards mark687 I'm not sure it was going to work anyway with the lack of promotion,the unsure nature of the broadcast and even fandom not knowing what it was. We had plenty of people on here assuming it was just like Sarah Jane Adventures because it was in a school even after it debuted.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2018 10:26:16 GMT
But.....he'd always - in every incarnation - have fought to save those kids (and adults) from the Cybermen. It's rather the character. We're not going to agree, I guess, but I think The Doctor Falls is written exactly the same even if Class never happened. Matt's Doctor's finale also by Moffat of course did much the same, staying in one place to die protecting one "insignificant" village years before Class was conceived. What did he say? He did it because it was right, decent and just kind. Not because he met the Class gang once.
You can have two reasons to do something, though. Extra mommentum and pressure with Twelve feeling like The Doctor in full-flourish, callbacking also to Time of The Doctor, part of the struggle. Given that they probably didn't know when Class was airing in the US as well when filming, I'd imagine it wasn't more overt, but it works better on a more subtle level. Also, spoilers!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2018 10:30:02 GMT
I still think there's no way Class should've been conceived of as a Doctor Who spin-off and definitely not one that had the Doctor appear in, it should've been set in its own universe. Regards mark687 I'm not sure it was going to work anyway with the lack of promotion,the unsure nature of the broadcast and even fandom not knowing what it was. We had plenty of people on here assuming it was just like Sarah Jane Adventures because it was in a school even after it debuted.
It really feels like the BBC got cold feet about Class. I'm not sure if they really knew what they were getting or more likely, wanted the noterity due to Who's declining ratings and then decided to wash their hands of it after seeing how it'd actually play out . A teenage British science fiction series probably does have a heavy layer of skepticism among British teenagers, though.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2018 19:13:44 GMT
Boy is this the most fanw*nky of conversations.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2018 23:27:16 GMT
Boy is this the most fanw*nky of conversations.
I'm sorry, but what is your definition of fan service? I mean, while not being the same, would you accuse Buffy and Angel seasons feeding into each other, not just overtly, but thematically at times, fan service on broadcast? Things can be subtle. You build on what's there for your audience.
You don't launch a spin-off and not have it feed into your parent show in some capacity and vice versa. It doesn't have to be explict for those who haven't seen Class, but it's there. The Doctor doesn't have to talk about about the events of For Tonight, We Might Die for them to be there to affect his actions or to have another reason to take on Bill, etc while still being making your show approchable to those who haven't seen Class (as I said, I'd imagine while Series 10 was in production during production, Moffatt didn't know when Class will air in other countries). I'm sorry, but that's not fan service, that's running a TV show,and common sense and building on what came before, rewarding and validating an audience. Moffatt clearly had Who do this in both The Return of Doctor Mysterio (broadcast three weeks after Class concluded with The Docto still being off his game leading to Grant gaining super powers screwing up his life being a reference and progression of he events of Class) and in Series 10 (broadcast two and a half months after for reasons I've previously outlined). The Doctor regretting letting a bunch of teenagers deal with The Tear - at the same point of development as his beloved Granddaughter and not staying to help them deal with it - can fit into The Doctor actions The Doctor Falls where he protects and tries to teaches the children how to surrive agasint the Cybermen while still building from what the audience who have only seen Doctor Who and in Twice Upon A Time with the rest of The Doctor's regrets and meeting his first incarnation, without being overtly refered to those who didn't see a spin off failed to secure a large enough audience for a second series, but reward fans with some sense of contiunation. That's not fan service, that's rewarding an audience.
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