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Post by glutamodo on Jul 5, 2018 22:38:43 GMT
And I'm the guy that gave up on DS9... at one point I had to choose between it and Babylon 5. B5 won.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Jul 5, 2018 22:39:23 GMT
And as a FYI, if BF were allowed to make in continuity audios, the Uma McComack DS9 novels are a really good starting point. Ah, dreams.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Jul 5, 2018 22:40:39 GMT
And I'm the guy that gave up on DS9... at one point I had to choose between it and Babylon 5. B5 won. And yet I still like you. I tried and tried to get into B5 and could never get past the overwritten dialogue and the mostly wooden acting.
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Post by randomjc on Jul 5, 2018 22:41:51 GMT
I'm with Audio - DS9 all the way. I LOVE TNG but DS9 was, to me, just better drama that had lasting consequences and development. TNG could have a gorgeous ep like The Inner Light or Tapestry and then never touch on the character growth in them again. A product of a more episodic age, sure but DS9's characters learned and evolved far more than in TNG. I mean it took them 7 years to invite Picard to a Poker game as every ep essentially soft-rebooted to the detached-authoritarian Captain regardless of what happened the week before. And the complete lack of development of the Crusher-Picard and Riker-Troi relationships was really testament to how much TNG - maybe understandably as a show made for syndication - wasn't as interested in growth. Look what Picard endured in Best Of Both Worlds, they gave him an episode (Family) to recover then he was just Jean-Luc again. Wheras when Sisko goes through In The Pale Moonlight or For The Uniform changes the character. Bluntly, DS9 could have done an Inner Light, Darmok or Chain Of Command but TNG could never have done half of the Dominion War or Prophet stories. Though, honestly, some of my all time fave Trek is in TNG. It did crazy, oddball stuff like Remember Me, Clues, Cause And Effect, A Matter Of Time, Schisms, Rascals, Phantasms and Parallels that I just love. And Darmok might be my fave Trek ep ever. It's interesting you bring up Inner Light in connection to a reset button, but what TNG does with things like that is bringing them up in subtler ways. Several times Picard has little moments with that flute which he learned to play while living that life. As well picard's PTSD with the Borg is brought up a few times, including the episode with Hugh. And First Contact. Data's humanity and personhood, through Measure of a Man, The offspring, and even through Data's Day, which is composed as a letter to Maddox from Measure of a Man. Sorry, nerding out a little. Just trying to say while TNG was very episodic, it didn't outright ignore character growth, just because it was episodic, that growth is shown in character moments throughout the show instead of as through lines like DS9. Gods, I hope this doesn't sound condescending in anyway, I don't mean to be.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Jul 5, 2018 22:47:53 GMT
I'm with Audio - DS9 all the way. I LOVE TNG but DS9 was, to me, just better drama that had lasting consequences and development. TNG could have a gorgeous ep like The Inner Light or Tapestry and then never touch on the character growth in them again. A product of a more episodic age, sure but DS9's characters learned and evolved far more than in TNG. I mean it took them 7 years to invite Picard to a Poker game as every ep essentially soft-rebooted to the detached-authoritarian Captain regardless of what happened the week before. And the complete lack of development of the Crusher-Picard and Riker-Troi relationships was really testament to how much TNG - maybe understandably as a show made for syndication - wasn't as interested in growth. Look what Picard endured in Best Of Both Worlds, they gave him an episode (Family) to recover then he was just Jean-Luc again. Wheras when Sisko goes through In The Pale Moonlight or For The Uniform changes the character. Bluntly, DS9 could have done an Inner Light, Darmok or Chain Of Command but TNG could never have done half of the Dominion War or Prophet stories. Though, honestly, some of my all time fave Trek is in TNG. It did crazy, oddball stuff like Remember Me, Clues, Cause And Effect, A Matter Of Time, Schisms, Rascals, Phantasms and Parallels that I just love. And Darmok might be my fave Trek ep ever. It's interesting you bring up Inner Light in connection to a reset button, but what TNG does with things like that is bringing them up in subtler ways. Several times Picard has little moments with that flute which he learned to play while living that life. As well picard's PTSD with the Borg is brought up a few times, including the episode with Hugh. And First Contact. Data's humanity and personhood, through Measure of a Man, The offspring, and even through Data's Day, which is composed as a letter to Maddox from Measure of a Man. Sorry, nerding out a little. Just trying to say while TNG was very episodic, it didn't outright ignore character growth, just because it was episodic, that growth is shown in character moments throughout the show instead of as through lines like DS9. Gods, I hope this doesn't sound condescending in anyway, I don't mean to be. No. This is actually the most enjoyable discussion I've had all day.
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Post by randomjc on Jul 5, 2018 22:49:54 GMT
It's interesting you bring up Inner Light in connection to a reset button, but what TNG does with things like that is bringing them up in subtler ways. Several times Picard has little moments with that flute which he learned to play while living that life. As well picard's PTSD with the Borg is brought up a few times, including the episode with Hugh. And First Contact. Data's humanity and personhood, through Measure of a Man, The offspring, and even through Data's Day, which is composed as a letter to Maddox from Measure of a Man. Sorry, nerding out a little. Just trying to say while TNG was very episodic, it didn't outright ignore character growth, just because it was episodic, that growth is shown in character moments throughout the show instead of as through lines like DS9. Gods, I hope this doesn't sound condescending in anyway, I don't mean to be. No. This is actually the most enjoyable discussion I've had all day. Thank you. I worry at times that I can be a bit "too much". Edit: I do agree that DS9 would make better BF fodder than TNG.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2018 22:51:04 GMT
DS9 did, of course, have the advantage in that it could afford to be it's own thing. Ira Behr has always said he was so lucky because when DS9 launched, Rick Berman and the execs were much more interested in TNG and continuing the films, and when TNG ended Berman and Paramount were all about Voyager launching as the centre piece of the new UPN network. Behr and co had a LOT more freedom than Michael Piller, Branon Braga or Jeri Taylor ever had. Without that - and without Gene Roddenberry losing power after TNG Season 1 and his subsequent death - a show as different as DS9 may never have happened in the Trek Universe. I'd very much recommend this www.amazon.co.uk/Fifty-Year-Mission-Generation-Uncensored-Unauthorized-ebook/dp/B01BKMMGLC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1530830717&sr=8-1&keywords=the+next+25+yearsIt's an oral history of Trek post TOS. It's 100% comprised of the actors, writers, execs, directors and all the creatives giving their direct testimony on TNG, DS9, VOY and Enterprise. Even as someone who knows my Trek well enough, I learned loads. Be warned - it's very direct. You'll read Bryan Fuller attacking Robert Beltran, hear about how odd Avery Brooks was and how Brent Spiner wasn't....the most popular TNG cast member among the crew. There's a whole other volume for TOS but I think we all know the issues the cast had, mainly with Shatner, and how Gene lost power after the (relative) failure of The Motion Picture. I've backed the DS9 What We Left Behind documentary film by Ira and Adam Nimoy on Indiegogo and can't wait to see that.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Jul 5, 2018 22:56:12 GMT
No. This is actually the most enjoyable discussion I've had all day. Thank you. I worry at times that I can be a bit "too much". Edit: I do agree that DS9 would make better BF fodder than TNG. We're fans. Our passion for our respective loves is what defines us.
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Post by glutamodo on Jul 5, 2018 23:00:48 GMT
And I'm the guy that gave up on DS9... at one point I had to choose between it and Babylon 5. B5 won. And yet I still like you. I tried and tried to get into B5 and could never get past the overwritten dialogue and the mostly wooden acting. Hah, I never saw it that way (the only real wooden acting I remember was maybe from O'Hare in the first season.) Once I got into the characters and the long running story arc I still think B5 (especially, series 2, 3 and 4) is one of the best sci-fi shows ever.
Now, I realize that DS9 had a pretty good story arc of its own going the last couple of seasons, but at that time I had moved on. If DS9 had shown up on syndicated reruns at some point when I was still watching broadcast TV, I probably would have watched them. Alas...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2018 23:04:54 GMT
I'm with Audio - DS9 all the way. I LOVE TNG but DS9 was, to me, just better drama that had lasting consequences and development. TNG could have a gorgeous ep like The Inner Light or Tapestry and then never touch on the character growth in them again. A product of a more episodic age, sure but DS9's characters learned and evolved far more than in TNG. I mean it took them 7 years to invite Picard to a Poker game as every ep essentially soft-rebooted to the detached-authoritarian Captain regardless of what happened the week before. And the complete lack of development of the Crusher-Picard and Riker-Troi relationships was really testament to how much TNG - maybe understandably as a show made for syndication - wasn't as interested in growth. Look what Picard endured in Best Of Both Worlds, they gave him an episode (Family) to recover then he was just Jean-Luc again. Wheras when Sisko goes through In The Pale Moonlight or For The Uniform changes the character. Bluntly, DS9 could have done an Inner Light, Darmok or Chain Of Command but TNG could never have done half of the Dominion War or Prophet stories. Though, honestly, some of my all time fave Trek is in TNG. It did crazy, oddball stuff like Remember Me, Clues, Cause And Effect, A Matter Of Time, Schisms, Rascals, Phantasms and Parallels that I just love. And Darmok might be my fave Trek ep ever. It's interesting you bring up Inner Light in connection to a reset button, but what TNG does with things like that is bringing them up in subtler ways. Several times Picard has little moments with that flute which he learned to play while living that life. As well picard's PTSD with the Borg is brought up a few times, including the episode with Hugh. And First Contact. Data's humanity and personhood, through Measure of a Man, The offspring, and even through Data's Day, which is composed as a letter to Maddox from Measure of a Man. Sorry, nerding out a little. Just trying to say while TNG was very episodic, it didn't outright ignore character growth, just because it was episodic, that growth is shown in character moments throughout the show instead of as through lines like DS9. Gods, I hope this doesn't sound condescending in anyway, I don't mean to be. Oh, not at all - we're having a good debate about Trek. I see all your points and do agree with them in part but to take them; Picard in First Contact HATES The Borg, wants them dead on sight and disobeys orders just to fight them. That would be an interesting idea post Best Of Both Worlds but.... he's had numerous encounters since then including with Hugh where he was patently not Space-Ahab that First Contact made him. They threw that growth away to make him an angry action hero - complete with John McClane vest It's well acted but Picard's "I WILL MAKE THEM PAY" nonsense is just not a logical progression, it's a leap out of nowhere post-Hugh. Even Data - he had about 10 episodes where he inched forward just to be Pinocchio who wishes he were a real boy again the next time they come to do a ep with him. There's nothing wrong with any of that of course - TOS also can be watched pretty much in any order too and like TNG there are eps of that I hold as gold standard - but in terms of achievement I just prefer DS9 as you do TNG.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2018 23:07:12 GMT
No. This is actually the most enjoyable discussion I've had all day. Thank you. I worry at times that I can be a bit "too much". Edit: I do agree that DS9 would make better BF fodder than TNG. Like Nathan I've enjoyed it massively too I think we're probably conditioned to think back and forth online debate equals arguing when really it's good discussion when done right!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2018 23:09:07 GMT
And I'm the guy that gave up on DS9... at one point I had to choose between it and Babylon 5. B5 won. And yet I still like you. I tried and tried to get into B5 and could never get past the overwritten dialogue and the mostly wooden acting. I struggle with B5 myself though have seen most of it. Ditto Farscape. Could never get through Stargate though!
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Jul 5, 2018 23:15:19 GMT
And yet I still like you. I tried and tried to get into B5 and could never get past the overwritten dialogue and the mostly wooden acting. I struggle with B5 myself though have seen most of it. Ditto Farscape. Could never get through Stargate though! Well, now there you go. I'm hard pressed to come up with a show from the past 20 years or so that I fell so in love with as much as Farscape. Talk about a show that deals with consequences. I still kind of avoid Sci-Fi because of them pulling the plug on it.
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Post by randomjc on Jul 5, 2018 23:25:01 GMT
It's interesting you bring up Inner Light in connection to a reset button, but what TNG does with things like that is bringing them up in subtler ways. Several times Picard has little moments with that flute which he learned to play while living that life. As well picard's PTSD with the Borg is brought up a few times, including the episode with Hugh. And First Contact. Data's humanity and personhood, through Measure of a Man, The offspring, and even through Data's Day, which is composed as a letter to Maddox from Measure of a Man. Sorry, nerding out a little. Just trying to say while TNG was very episodic, it didn't outright ignore character growth, just because it was episodic, that growth is shown in character moments throughout the show instead of as through lines like DS9. Gods, I hope this doesn't sound condescending in anyway, I don't mean to be. Oh, not at all - we're having a good debate about Trek. I see all your points and do agree with them in part but to take them; Picard in First Contact HATES The Borg, wants them dead on sight and disobeys orders just to fight them. That would be an interesting idea post Best Of Both Worlds but.... he's had numerous encounters since then including with Hugh where he was patently not Space-Ahab that First Contact made him. They threw that growth away to make him an angry action hero - complete with John McClane vest It's well acted but Picard's "I WILL MAKE THEM PAY" nonsense is just not a logical progression, it's a leap out of nowhere post-Hugh. Even Data - he had about 10 episodes where he inched forward just to be Pinocchio who wishes he were a real boy again the next time they come to do a ep with him. There's nothing wrong with any of that of course - TOS also can be watched pretty much in any order too and like TNG there are eps of that I hold as gold standard - but in terms of achievement I just prefer DS9 as you do TNG. I'd argue that while not space ahab in Hugh, he still exhibits those traits. That entire episode is him going "that's an it, and we can kill all the Borg with it". That's deep seated hatred for someone like Picard. And in much different circumstances than First Contact, since that was far more a direct confrontation with with the Borg, bringing out far more of that visceral hatred, while Hugh, being a singular Borg in captivity really only provokes a seething under the skin hatred. (Though I do agree that Descent as so little of it, that it's easy to forget Picard despises the Borg. But Descent isn't that good anyway.) And to the point of Data, becoming human is a goal for the character, so yes we come back to it, because it isn't just a "he becomes human we're done". None of those episodes reset his previous growth to being human. They do develop and grow him. He adopts a pet, learns to paint, develops actual relationships that he truly does treasure. Warf has a stunning amount of character growth in TNG. There are episodes and episodes about him and his family and the Klingons that are built upon and aren't reset at the end of the episode.
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Post by glutamodo on Jul 5, 2018 23:31:24 GMT
Well, everyone has their own preferences. Most of us on Divergent Universe are here because of Dr. Who... but there is certainly a fair amount of like/dislike across the various incarnations that show has had.
At one point I would watch ANYTHING sci-fi or fantasy that was on the air. Which, early on, usually were short lived "cult" shows. Then it exploded and it was all over the place and I couldn't keep up with it all, so I started to hold back on what I would decide to follow. While I skipped the last couple of seasons of DS9, I otherwise stayed with Star Trek all the way through, heck, even after I moved to a place that didn't air Enterprise, my Mom still caught them on VHS for me so I watched that series all the way to the bitter end.
Going back to the topic of this thread... I expect that I will buy these titles, not as a Trek fan, but because I like to support everything that Big Finish does, but I'm not sure as to how well they will rise to the top of the play list on my rather over-stuffed MP3 player.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Jul 5, 2018 23:36:38 GMT
Worf has a stunning amount of character growth in TNG. There are episodes and episodes about him and his family and the Klingons that are built upon and aren't reset at the end of the episode. I would agree that Worf is the main Next Gen character that moves from point A to point B over the course of the run. Of course DS9 moved him to points C & D.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Jul 5, 2018 23:43:05 GMT
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Post by randomjc on Jul 5, 2018 23:47:32 GMT
Worf has a stunning amount of character growth in TNG. There are episodes and episodes about him and his family and the Klingons that are built upon and aren't reset at the end of the episode. I would agree that Worf is the main Next Gen character that moves from point A to point B over the course of the run. Of course DS9 moved him to points C & D. I agree. I'm not trying to say DS9 isn't better at it, just that TNG does have a lot of character growth and through lines. Granted these do show up more once Roddenberry is less in charge after the first few seasons, but you do have characters like O'Brien who does grow in TNG, and Ro Laren, Nurse Okawa. Troi gets some excellent character growth in later seasons. An episode where she is forced into command leads to one later where she actively is trying to get a command rank and improve as a Starfleet officer.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2018 23:49:28 GMT
Worf has a stunning amount of character growth in TNG. There are episodes and episodes about him and his family and the Klingons that are built upon and aren't reset at the end of the episode. I would agree that Worf is the main Next Gen character that moves from point A to point B over the course of the run. Of course DS9 moved him to points C & D. I'm always amused when Michael Dorn talks about how he still wants a Worf show - he's done more Trek than anyone! 7 seasons of TNG, 4 of DS9 and 5 movies. Today is a good day to get paid. He is absolutely fantastic though. I think, to paraphrase the book I linked to above, he was one of the actors who surprised the writers on TNG with what he could do and they just made the part bigger and bigger which in turn ended up expanding the entire Klingon mythology and Random is absolutely right, that was ongoing and built through TNG. Worf's family honour was a terrific story. Pity they didn't do so much with his earth family though. Robert Picardo was the same on Voyager - initially supposed to be a smaller role - which is nuts to me as anyone with even a passing familiarity with Joe Dante's work knows Picardo's got more charisma than the bridge crew of Voyager combined. Rom on DS9 too, he's quite different early on but when the writers got to know Max Groedenchik's gifts he became a much more interesting character.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Jul 5, 2018 23:54:01 GMT
I would agree that Worf is the main Next Gen character that moves from point A to point B over the course of the run. Of course DS9 moved him to points C & D. I'm always amused when Michael Dorn talks about how he still wants a Worf show - he's done more Trek than anyone! 7 seasons of TNG, 4 of DS9 and 5 movies. Today is a good day to get paid. He is absolutely fantastic though. I think, to paraphrase the book I linked to above, he was one of the actors who surprised the writers on TNG with what he could do and they just made the part bigger and bigger which in turn ended up expanding the entire Klingon mythology and Random is absolutely right, that was ongoing and built through TNG. Worf's family honour was a terrific story. Pity they didn't do so much with his earth family though. Robert Picardo was the same on Voyager - initially supposed to be a smaller role - which is nuts to me as anyone with even a passing familiarity with Joe Dante's work knows Picardo's got more charisma than the bridge crew of Voyager combined. Rom on DS9 too, he's quite different early on but when the writers got to know Max Groedenchik's gifts he became a much more interesting character. The thing which I really appreciate about Worf, and Dorn as an actor, is how funny he could be. Part of the problem I have with Next Gen is how dry & earnest it could often be. Worf lightened the mood by being the greatest of straight men. Love Rom. Love Quark. Quark-centric episodes were almost always winners.
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