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Post by christmastrenzalore on Dec 9, 2018 19:19:38 GMT
Awesome finale. A low key story arc about the characters, more than the sci-fi stuff, brought to a satisfying conclusion. This has been a great Series. A little middling in the first half, but Demon's onwards, it hit a strong stride. Looking forward to the New Year Special and the next Series.
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Post by sherlock on Dec 9, 2018 19:20:31 GMT
The strongest of Chibnall’s episodes so far. Strong character work for the Doctor, Graham and Ryan (Yaz again seemed a bit of an after thought) and some decent stuff for the villain. I think Chibnall has a tendency to over do it on thirteen’s rambling style of talking.
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Post by shallacatop on Dec 9, 2018 19:29:03 GMT
A low key finale. Plenty of nice character moments, I really loved the decision Graham and Ryan made with Tim Shaw. Perhaps not a great deal was done with him, but it seems inevitable he and the Stenza will return again.
A great series overall. I think the Kerblam!, Witchfinders and It Takes You Away trio are the highlights, along with Rosa, but the whole thing has been consistent and it’s been a pleasure to spend time with this TARDIS crew.
I’m glad the TARDIS team will be back in 2020. I’ve no qualms with the extra 3 month wait to get Bradley Walsh back on board. But for now, New Years Day and the Daleks?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2018 19:37:56 GMT
I thought it was a solid bookend to the series with the Grace/Tim Shaw arc. It's clear Chibnall's not doing the big cliffhanger epic endings like his predecessors but this had an urgency in parts and a good sense of danger. Tim seemed more of a threat here even if he's never going down in the pantheon of greats. The best part was Graham's climbdown. In this most family friendly of eras he was never gonna murder Tim but it shows how well Bradley plays him that I was relieved Graham said no, he wasn't going to do it. I'm still not too sure Chibnall can write particularly interesting Doctor Who...but he does write solid characters. I just wish he had the imagination we've seen not just in previous years but also from his writing team this season. It's a bit odd to have the showrunner as the writer who's work you've enjoyed the least. Chris Carter syndrome, for X-Files fans. This was his best story this season but that's not saying awfully much. He's been massively outshone by his less experienced screenwriters. I do think, now the series is done, there really is an argument to be had about the lack of character for Yaz. I really like her but it feels like she had Punjab...and that's it. She spent the whole of this ep being the plucky selfless pup following Jodie around. I kinda wish we'd had Yaz eps and Graham/Ryan eps, either with them being in seperate years or, a first, having companions rotate mid-season...like The Doc moonlights. I don't agree with the crowded TARDIS argument - a good writer finds things for them all to do - but it's Chibnall who created this team and yet he's the one who's struggled most to give them reason to be there in his scripts. We'll spend the next year debating the above no doubt so won't go on..but it was good. I just kinda lament the fact the guy running the show seems to be aiming for good because that story was just not ambitious enough to ever be great. As a season capper, the end of Graham and Ryan's grief causing them to run arc...it just ticked the boxes. I do miss a showrunner who isn't afraid to shoot for the stars, even if they miss. Chibnall aims for the low hanging fruit. Jodie's Doctor again...very Tennant-ish in her asides. The "I love wellies, I think I invented them.." kinda stuff. Bit sad to get a whole season in now and still not be able to pinpoint much that makes her different from the other Docs. I like her....but as I said above that seems to be the aim of the show right now - just make it likable enough to alienate no-one but in going that route you have the severe danger of generic mundanity. Surely 100% Daleks confirmed in that trailer. Let's see what the fam can do in the most Doctor Who showdown of them all.
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Post by fitzoliverj on Dec 9, 2018 19:46:15 GMT
It was Chibnall's best episode this series, but a bit of a decline from the last few weeks (although it's interesting that once again they tried to give everybody a plot. Were all these episodes written in broadcast order?) I could've done without the return of the most boring non-volcanic aliens in the universe, though, and the references to RTD-era and "Die Hard" were also a bit irritating.
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Post by doctorkernow on Dec 9, 2018 19:47:44 GMT
Hello again.
Well, distinctly underwhelmed. I don't know what I expected. I've enjoyed the historicals more. I love Team TARDIS, Graham and Ryan's journey has been the highlight of the series.
I feel sorry for Jodie Whittaker, there have been moments of Doctorish brilliance but I don't think the writing from Chibnall has been particularly engaging. She needs better.
This finale was watchable but I found it rather dull and worthy. I know this TARDIS team are really good, visuals and direction have been excellent and the new composer is too but the stories have been very mixed.
The potential is there, a good foundation has been laid, but we need some sparkle, some drama and more historicals. I'm not sure why this series hasn't grabbed me. Others have really enjoyed it, so it's just me I guess...
Ooh, just remembered kudos to Chibnall for making the next time trailers not give everything away. Spoilers non-spoilering for me this year! Thank you.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2018 20:13:39 GMT
Absolutely loved it! These last 3 episodes have been brilliant & some of the best Who episodes in a long long time for me. In fact ITYA is one of my favourite episodes of Who ever. But back to tonight, I thought the return of Tim Shaw was well done, he was a bigger credible threat. & showed to the Doctor that actions have consequences, even sometimes unforeseen ones. Loved the scenes of him connected to the machine with what looked like dual breathing pumps, reminded me of Darth Vader in his chamber. Once again it was another episode with a brilliant cinematic visual style. I really liked the characters of the Ux. The threat to Earth made it feel like a finale to a season but the biggest climactic aspect was Graham & Ryan confronting Tim Shaw. The decision to “be the better man” is not a new one, but a great message for the target audience & well written & acted.
Once again though Yaz was given little to do but there was more material here for some more Yaz & the Doctor slash fiction. Hopefully Chibbers will take onboard what appears to be the consensus in respect of Yaz’s character & give her more to do. Take inspiration from her background as a trainee police officer for example in some 'locked-room' style mysteries. But overall this, & the preceding couple of episodes have given me hope about the future of Who with this team behind & in-front of the camera. It appears to have found its tone & can’t wait for the New Year’s day special which will feature a certain returning villain obviously. A return that I think the show has now earned, in fact it would be fun to only have classic monsters turn up in festive specials. Would be a great treat for fans rather than overusing them.
Another positive that I’ve noticed is that there have been versions of the epic Doctor speeches but done in a more concise, less knowingly epic way. If Moffat was to write this episode the ending would have had a 2 page monologue! Instead Chibbers gives us this which I feel is no less powerful for being succinct - “None of us know for sure what’s out there. That’s why we keep looking. Keep your faith. Travel hopefully. The universe will surprise you...constantly.”
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Dec 9, 2018 21:00:50 GMT
Solid, capable, basically, a mirror to a lot of my points on Woman. Direction by Childs is solid as ever; the effects and design work is outstanding and the cast deliver. Not overly imaginative in worldbuilding, but the structure and pace flow like water, and there's good stakes here.
Quality wise, probably second best of Chib's own this year.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Dec 9, 2018 21:11:36 GMT
I take Davy's point that RTD and Moffat always went huge on their season finales whilst Chibs went medium. I also take Davy's point that 10 episodes in and I still don't know what makes 13 special or different. And this was the only episode of the series where I didn't buy everything Bradley Walsh did. I don't feel like deep & dark is in Walsh's wheelhouse as an actor. Still, I don't feel right going after what isn't there when I enjoyed what was. I felt like all the world building was top notch and I liked the new race Chibs introduced. I do think Yaz deserves better than what she got here and in fact the rest of the series. It goes without saying that it looked & sounded great. A solidly enjoybale, if not great, episode of Doctor Who. Now on to News Years Day and ...oh I don't know....some horrible race of roving pepper pots that sound like Nick Briggs talking into a ring modulator.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2018 21:22:48 GMT
IAnd this was the only episode of the series where I didn't buy everything Bradley Walsh did. I don't feel like deep & dark is in Walsh's wheelhouse as an actor. What Bradley plays SO well - and he did it even better as Ronnie in Law & Order - is the guy who carries pain and with a wry smile tries to move on but is always teetering between a smile and a breakdown. I feel Graham needs Ryan more than he needs the adventure, honestly and that's all in the knowing looks, the quiet pluckiness and the sarcasm masking the tenderness. I didn't quite buy all of Graham's actions tonight but I liked Bradley's performances. I loved the Doctor and Graham's conversation about him murdering Tim Shaw was so matter of fact. Even there Chibnall cut out the bombast. Tennant, Smith or Capaldi would have given him a talk about being the man Grace married with sweeping Murray Gold music. This just had Jodie going "Yeah, you can do it...but we won't be friends any more and you'll need to go home". That's terrific stuff. They do earn the title "fam".
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Dec 9, 2018 21:26:52 GMT
IAnd this was the only episode of the series where I didn't buy everything Bradley Walsh did. I don't feel like deep & dark is in Walsh's wheelhouse as an actor. What Bradley plays SO well - and he did it even better as Ronnie in Law & Order - is the guy who carries pain and with a wry smile tries to move on but is always teetering between a smile and a breakdown. I feel Graham needs Ryan more than he needs the adventure, honestly and that's all in the knowing looks, the quiet pluckiness and the sarcasm masking the tenderness. I didn't quite buy all of Graham's actions tonight but I liked Bradley's performances. I loved the Doctor and Graham's conversation about him murdering Tim Shaw was so matter of fact. Even there Chibnall cut out the bombast. Tennant, Smith or Capaldi would have given him a talk about being the man Grace married with sweeping Murray Gold music. This just had Jodie going "Yeah, you can do it...but we won't be friends any more and you'll need to go home". That's terrific stuff. They do earn the title "fam". I think you have certainly nailed Walsh's strength as an actor. I also agree that scene was beautifully written. I just don't think Walsh can go the places the script wanted him to.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2018 21:32:32 GMT
What Bradley plays SO well - and he did it even better as Ronnie in Law & Order - is the guy who carries pain and with a wry smile tries to move on but is always teetering between a smile and a breakdown. I feel Graham needs Ryan more than he needs the adventure, honestly and that's all in the knowing looks, the quiet pluckiness and the sarcasm masking the tenderness. I didn't quite buy all of Graham's actions tonight but I liked Bradley's performances. I loved the Doctor and Graham's conversation about him murdering Tim Shaw was so matter of fact. Even there Chibnall cut out the bombast. Tennant, Smith or Capaldi would have given him a talk about being the man Grace married with sweeping Murray Gold music. This just had Jodie going "Yeah, you can do it...but we won't be friends any more and you'll need to go home". That's terrific stuff. They do earn the title "fam". I think you have certainly nailed Walsh's strength as an actor. I also agree that scene was beautifully written. I just don't think Walsh can go the places the script wanted him to. I'd agree - I think there was a missing internal conflict in Graham. He seemed quite easily convinced either way. It didn't seem like he was terribly cut up about what he was going to do. I think if they'd sewn seeds that Graham wasn't just grieving but downright angry through the season more could have come of that but ultimately it was less about Graham's grief and more about cementing - for once and for all - the true bond with him and Ryan. I liked that aspect.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Dec 9, 2018 21:36:44 GMT
Is it just me or is anyone else thinking that wasn't the finale? In that when the Beeb insisted on a seasonal episode that Chibnall planned 11 rather than 10+1? I liked it but it's no more a finale than any other episode (welcome to classic Who!)
In fact this season felt more like Classic Who than anything else post 2005.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Dec 9, 2018 21:39:14 GMT
I think you have certainly nailed Walsh's strength as an actor. I also agree that scene was beautifully written. I just don't think Walsh can go the places the script wanted him to. I'd agree - I think there was a missing internal conflict in Graham. He seemed quite easily convinced either way. It didn't seem like he was terribly cut up about what he was going to do. I think if they'd sewn seeds that Graham wasn't just grieving but downright angry through the season more could have come of that but ultimately it was less about Graham's grief and more about cementing - for once and for all - the true bond with him and Ryan. I liked that aspect. I would agree with you. I think a case could easily be made that the Graham/Ryan relationship was the defining one of the series. Which begs the question, what purpose does Yaz serve?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2018 21:44:19 GMT
I'd agree - I think there was a missing internal conflict in Graham. He seemed quite easily convinced either way. It didn't seem like he was terribly cut up about what he was going to do. I think if they'd sewn seeds that Graham wasn't just grieving but downright angry through the season more could have come of that but ultimately it was less about Graham's grief and more about cementing - for once and for all - the true bond with him and Ryan. I liked that aspect. I would agree with you. I think a case could easily be made that the Graham/Ryan relationship was the defining one of the series. Which begs the question, what purpose does Yaz serve? 13th's love interest.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2018 21:50:13 GMT
I'd agree - I think there was a missing internal conflict in Graham. He seemed quite easily convinced either way. It didn't seem like he was terribly cut up about what he was going to do. I think if they'd sewn seeds that Graham wasn't just grieving but downright angry through the season more could have come of that but ultimately it was less about Graham's grief and more about cementing - for once and for all - the true bond with him and Ryan. I liked that aspect. I would agree with you. I think a case could easily be made that the Graham/Ryan relationship was the defining one of the series. Which begs the question, what purpose does Yaz serve? The thread about overall Series 11 thoughts are probably the best place for that chat but in that thread I've already said I didn't wonder if it'd be better if Ryan and Graham were the sole companions this year and Yaz joined next year. Their arc is complete in essence while she's not had anything approaching one.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Dec 9, 2018 21:55:41 GMT
I would agree with you. I think a case could easily be made that the Graham/Ryan relationship was the defining one of the series. Which begs the question, what purpose does Yaz serve? The thread about overall Series 11 thoughts are probably the best place for that chat but in that thread I've already said I didn't wonder if it'd be better if Ryan and Graham were the sole companions this year and Yaz joined next year. Their arc is complete in essence while she's not had anything approaching one. So she's no worse off than many a classic companion. What arc did SJ have, or Jo? Nothing.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Dec 9, 2018 21:57:14 GMT
I would agree with you. I think a case could easily be made that the Graham/Ryan relationship was the defining one of the series. Which begs the question, what purpose does Yaz serve? 13th's love interest. I don’t know how you intended that remark to be taken but I have to think that is the last thing this production team would want to do.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Dec 9, 2018 21:58:41 GMT
The thread about overall Series 11 thoughts are probably the best place for that chat but in that thread I've already said I didn't wonder if it'd be better if Ryan and Graham were the sole companions this year and Yaz joined next year. Their arc is complete in essence while she's not had anything approaching one. So she's no worse off than many a classic companion. What arc did SJ have, or Jo? Nothing. Except storytelling has changed a lot since Sarah Jane’s time in the TARDIS.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2018 22:04:21 GMT
The thread about overall Series 11 thoughts are probably the best place for that chat but in that thread I've already said I didn't wonder if it'd be better if Ryan and Graham were the sole companions this year and Yaz joined next year. Their arc is complete in essence while she's not had anything approaching one. So she's no worse off than many a classic companion. What arc did SJ have, or Jo? Nothing. Think that's an unfair comparison. It's 2018....we don't tend to have characters just standing left of screen doing little. Jo and Sarah had plenty to do, I think you're comparing the incomparable - they were the Ryan and Graham of their eras. Yaz is more...the Harry maybe if you have to pick a good but ultimately superflous companion.
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