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Post by masterdoctor on Jan 28, 2019 5:17:45 GMT
'Nobody hates Doctor Who as much as Doctor Who fans.' - Gary Russell. A million times yes.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2019 8:36:54 GMT
Hello again. Just out curiosity and with my new knowledge of Classic Who I'd love to know Shutupbanks, your selection of the top three seasons out of 37. I'd argue that Seasons 7, 14 and (revived) Series 4 are the ones that can be sat through without a story that really makes you worry about the state of television at the time of production. They seem to get the most love from fandom at any rate. Obviously YMMV, but they're the ones that most people seem to enjoy as pieces of entertainment. Every other series has a story that lets the side down but those three carry the least amount of baggage as pieces of television (politics aside, of course). Other people will have different opinions but, for me at least, each one of those seasons comes as close to "each episode/ story works" as the show gets. I've always been fascinated by the pull of Season 7 for newcomers. There's something about the tone and the style which seems to really speak to people approaching that period for the first time. There's a real fascination for stories like The Silurians or Inferno that threw the Doctor into situations not far removed from Cosmic Horror stories.
'Nobody hates Doctor Who as much as Doctor Who fans.' - Gary Russell. Ehh, to a degree... I think it's important to remember, particularly in transition periods like these, that the hatedom isn't fandom and vice versa. Whether we enjoyed the show or thought it lacking, we all want to see it succeed and thrive. Hell, part of the reason I became a writer in the first place was because I wanted more stories. Where that stops is when you get people zealously devoted to the concept of seeing something crash and burn. The very first sentence on Wikipedia describing fandom is "a subculture composed of fans characterised by a feeling of empathy and camaraderie with others who share a common interest." Witch hunts, mockery and sadistic burnings... I don't and can't find that relatable. Why spend so much energy breaking something? It doesn't make you feel any bigger, any more powerful. It's an empty, hollow and ultimately really lonely pursuit. Despite the icrowd it can generate, no one links beyond their hatred and hatred isn't the foundation for any sort of healthy relationship. And it's ultimately not what fandom is about for me. It's all about creative energies. Building things up rather than tearing them down. We're not here to step on anyone's face, we're here to have fun and connect. Share, not exterminate.
If we ever lose sight of that instinct to create, it ceases being fandom. We are strong in our differences and we are strong in our tolerance of differences. That's ultimately what Doctor Who is, in the end. We learn about each other, so we learn about ourselves. That's fandom.
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Post by Timelord007 on Jan 28, 2019 8:52:40 GMT
I've find it sad & pathetic all these videos attacking the latest series which such hate & negativity, nobody was more against a female Doctor than me but Jodie proved me wrong & i love her as The Doctor, i never seen such vile hated like some of the comments I've read in these videos it's sick & twisted.
There's some dickhead posting on the Big Finish channel boycott Big Finish because of they using new logo & because of Jodies casting, nearly every video i commented on he turns up with same quote.
What a sad pathetic dickhead.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2019 9:32:52 GMT
I've find it sad & pathetic all these videos attacking the latest series which such hate & negativity, nobody was more against a female Doctor than me but Jodie proved me wrong & i love her as The Doctor, i never seen such vile hated like some of the comments I've read in these videos it's sick & twisted. There's some dickhead posting on the Big Finish channel boycott Big Finish because of they using new logo & because of Jodies casting, nearly every video i commented on he turns up with same quote. What a sad pathetic dickhead. It's a waste. A terrible, awful waste. Of time, of energy, of a person's life. It's why it's good to ask the question as fans: "Is that what defines us? Is that who we are?"
Well, guys... Is it?
I don't think it is. I don't think that's who we are, who we should define ourselves by. We are all capable of so much more than that.
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Post by Timelord007 on Jan 28, 2019 10:25:54 GMT
I've find it sad & pathetic all these videos attacking the latest series which such hate & negativity, nobody was more against a female Doctor than me but Jodie proved me wrong & i love her as The Doctor, i never seen such vile hated like some of the comments I've read in these videos it's sick & twisted. There's some dickhead posting on the Big Finish channel boycott Big Finish because of they using new logo & because of Jodies casting, nearly every video i commented on he turns up with same quote. What a sad pathetic dickhead. It's a waste. A terrible, awful waste. Of time, of energy, of a person's life. It's why it's good to ask the question as fans: "Is that what defines us? Is that who we are?"
Well, guys... Is it?
I don't think it is. I don't think that's who we are, who we should define ourselves by. We are all capable of so much more than that.
This particular person i replied & said why is it a female Doctor & the new logo led to you boycotting Big Finish & missing out on some excellent audio dramas? I more or less got same reply with Chibnall should be fired with Jodie get a male Doctor back. Like i said i was totally against Jodies casting but i gave her a chance & i love her performance as the Doctor if this person against the changes that's fine but why cut off your nose to spite your face. I'm huge Star Wars fan but i loathe & detest Last Jedi & Force Awakens but i loved Rogue One so i simply don't add TFA or TLJ to my collection for me ROTJ is the last film in the main saga & i go with Tim Zahns novels as my future canon i don't boycott Star Wars because i loathe the latest trilogy. The world is very strange.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2019 11:00:46 GMT
It's a waste. A terrible, awful waste. Of time, of energy, of a person's life. It's why it's good to ask the question as fans: "Is that what defines us? Is that who we are?"
Well, guys... Is it?
I don't think it is. I don't think that's who we are, who we should define ourselves by. We are all capable of so much more than that.
This particular person i replied & said why is it a female Doctor & the new logo led to you boycotting Big Finish & missing out on some excellent audio dramas? I more or less got same reply with Chibnall should be fired with Jodie get a male Doctor back. Like i said i was totally against Jodies casting but i gave her a chance & i love her performance as the Doctor if this person against the changes that's fine but why cut off your nose to spite your face. I'm huge Star Wars fan but detest i loathe & detest Last Jedi & Force Awakens but i loved Rogue One so i simply don't add TFA or TLJ to my collection for me ROTJ is the last film in the main saga & i go with Tim Zahns novels as my canon i don't boycott Star Wars. The world is very strange. Very strange indeed. In the end, it's just another form of extremism. Some people need that control and those absolutes. It's all or nothing, there can never be even the barest hint of deviation. Finding the bad becomes all-consuming to the point that they forget or deliberately overlook the good. The whole thing has to be burned to the ground.
I guess the reason why "fandom = bad" irks me so much, and this is a general bugbear, is that it makes it so much harder on the rest of us who don't buy into the hate. Particularly those who try so desperately hard to make it all work despite the chaos. Who push to be heard over those screaming at the top of their lungs that the whole thing should be torn to shreds. Reinforcing that misnomer is energy wasted on those who don't deserve it. Better that people who create get that voice than those who go out of their way to destroy.
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Jan 28, 2019 13:52:38 GMT
This particular person i replied & said why is it a female Doctor & the new logo led to you boycotting Big Finish & missing out on some excellent audio dramas? I more or less got same reply with Chibnall should be fired with Jodie get a male Doctor back. Like i said i was totally against Jodies casting but i gave her a chance & i love her performance as the Doctor if this person against the changes that's fine but why cut off your nose to spite your face. I'm huge Star Wars fan but detest i loathe & detest Last Jedi & Force Awakens but i loved Rogue One so i simply don't add TFA or TLJ to my collection for me ROTJ is the last film in the main saga & i go with Tim Zahns novels as my canon i don't boycott Star Wars. The world is very strange. Very strange indeed. In the end, it's just another form of extremism. Some people need that control and those absolutes. It's all or nothing, there can never be even the barest hint of deviation. Finding the bad becomes all-consuming to the point that they forget or deliberately overlook the good. The whole thing has to be burned to the ground.
I guess the reason why "fandom = bad" irks me so much, and this is a general bugbear, is that it makes it so much harder on the rest of us who don't buy into the hate. Particularly those who try so desperately hard to make it all work despite the chaos. Who push to be heard over those screaming at the top of their lungs that the whole thing should be torn to shreds. Reinforcing that misnomer is energy wasted on those who don't deserve it. Better that people who create get that voice than those who go out of their way to destroy.
I feel the same way: I'm invested in several fandoms at the moment and some of them are producing some substandard material, others are producing excellent work while others aren't producing at all. It frustrates me when one of them makes a misstep but I know that I've got everything that went before or future instalments to look forward to. And if one of them continues to disappoint me I vote with my feet and stop investing so much in it. My life doesn't end with the creative decisions of others and I've got real people depending on me and who mean even more to me than stuff I read, watch or listen to.
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Post by Timelord007 on Jan 28, 2019 13:59:00 GMT
I had lot backlash on other forums that i was anti-Jodie & now I've sold out because i done a U turn, my reply was i gave her a chance & she proved me wrong being a fantastic Doctor, i didn't invest in last series build up, didn't watch interviews i was convinced Jodie & Chibnall would ruin Doctor Who but my friend Tim Bradley said watch first episode then if you feel same way that's fine so i took his advice & watched Jodies debut & within 15 minutes i knew she'd proved me wrong.
If a stubborn old goat like me can embrace change why can't other's?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2019 15:02:10 GMT
'Nobody hates Doctor Who as much as Doctor Who fans.' - Gary Russell. Ehh, to a degree... I think it's important to remember, particularly in transition periods like these, that the hatedom isn't fandom and vice versa. Whether we enjoyed the show or thought it lacking, we all want to see it succeed and thrive. Hell, part of the reason I became a writer in the first place was because I wanted more stories. Where that stops is when you get people zealously devoted to the concept of seeing something crash and burn. The very first sentence on Wikipedia describing fandom is "a subculture composed of fans characterised by a feeling of empathy and camaraderie with others who share a common interest." Witch hunts, mockery and sadistic burnings... I don't and can't find that relatable. Why spend so much energy breaking something? It doesn't make you feel any bigger, any more powerful. It's an empty, hollow and ultimately really lonely pursuit. Despite the icrowd it can generate, no one links beyond their hatred and hatred isn't the foundation for any sort of healthy relationship. And it's ultimately not what fandom is about for me. It's all about creative energies. Building things up rather than tearing them down. We're not here to step on anyone's face, we're here to have fun and connect. Share, not exterminate.
If we ever lose sight of that instinct to create, it ceases being fandom. We are strong in our differences and we are strong in our tolerance of differences. That's ultimately what Doctor Who is, in the end. We learn about each other, so we learn about ourselves. That's fandom.
Perhaps these peoples' argument would carry a modicum of weight if every era wasn't lambasted by loud voiced minorities. Doctor Who has been **** of one kind or another since Philip Hinchcliffe left, for some. Or RTD. And now, more recently, since Steven Moffat left - who was mercilessly slated for every decision he made (or didn't make). YouTube is just another platform for cretins with a sense of their own authority, among a sea of more level-minded souls. It doesn't make them any more influential or important than those who filled forums with their views, or before that, 'fanzines.' Torchwood's excellent The Man Who Destroyed is advisable listening to anyone annoyed by these YouTube tubes.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2019 2:04:06 GMT
Ehh, to a degree... I think it's important to remember, particularly in transition periods like these, that the hatedom isn't fandom and vice versa. Whether we enjoyed the show or thought it lacking, we all want to see it succeed and thrive. Hell, part of the reason I became a writer in the first place was because I wanted more stories. Where that stops is when you get people zealously devoted to the concept of seeing something crash and burn. The very first sentence on Wikipedia describing fandom is "a subculture composed of fans characterised by a feeling of empathy and camaraderie with others who share a common interest." Witch hunts, mockery and sadistic burnings... I don't and can't find that relatable. Why spend so much energy breaking something? It doesn't make you feel any bigger, any more powerful. It's an empty, hollow and ultimately really lonely pursuit. Despite the icrowd it can generate, no one links beyond their hatred and hatred isn't the foundation for any sort of healthy relationship. And it's ultimately not what fandom is about for me. It's all about creative energies. Building things up rather than tearing them down. We're not here to step on anyone's face, we're here to have fun and connect. Share, not exterminate.
If we ever lose sight of that instinct to create, it ceases being fandom. We are strong in our differences and we are strong in our tolerance of differences. That's ultimately what Doctor Who is, in the end. We learn about each other, so we learn about ourselves. That's fandom.
Perhaps these peoples' argument would carry a modicum of weight if every era wasn't lambasted by loud voiced minorities. Doctor Who has been **** of one kind or another since Philip Hinchcliffe left, for some. Or RTD. And now, more recently, since Steven Moffat left - who was mercilessly slated for every decision he made (or didn't make). YouTube is just another platform for cretins with a sense of their own authority, among a sea of more level-minded souls. It doesn't make them any more influential or important than those who filled forums with their views, or before that, 'fanzines.' Torchwood's excellent The Man Who Destroyed is advisable listening to anyone annoyed by these YouTube tubes. Exactly, I wouldn't pay it any mind. There were complaints of "irreconcilable damage", even before the switch from Hartnell to Troughton. I can't find it at the present (and I'm disappointed I can't, it must be in the great sea of tweets), but there's a newspaper clipping floating around the internet of a reviewer from way back in 1963/64 critiquing An Unearthly Child. He basically sums up the show as having tanked and now impossible to recover. The Daleks must have come as quite the shock. As a consolation prize, this features the very first "What on Earth have you done to the programme?" from way back in 1966.
My attitude is thus: Doctor Who has survived cancellation twice. It's survived maintaining the legacy of fourteen different actors (just in the title role alone) and it endures precisely because that change is constant. If there isn't something enjoyable now, there will be on the horizon in the future. In the meantime, the past isn't even a locked door like other shows. How many series can say they're still making new content for actors who haven't played the role on television since the 80s. Doomed forever? Hardly.
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Post by mrperson on Jan 30, 2019 4:41:09 GMT
They're making it. I'm watching it. I doubt anyone who watches Who other than as a sort of casual-watch at someone's house who insisted decides to not even try something because of what someone else says. I don't want to call anyone out, but really, anyone who hasn't tried should try. Even just the once. What if you're wrong? That would mean more Who. Win-win.
I was worried about how it would all pan out. I ran my mouth here plenty. I thought it was silly to inject sex-change regeneration into the show. But I too was wrong to worry that it wouldn't be handled properly and am very happy to be wrong. I cannot imagine there are still that many people who at this point will think "I was going to try it, but I see these opinions, and now I will not."
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Feb 1, 2019 21:10:55 GMT
Interesting to see a lot of takes on this topic again, though not surprising. I've probably been the one most vocal about this subject and this strar of fandom. Yes, as banks, davy and wolfie have pointed out, they are a minority who are 99.99999% hot air. NotMyDoctor is a resounding failure by any measure: they didn't get Jodie or Chris fired, didn't boycott the show and didn't make the BBC change their mind about anything. Such is the genius of selling used dvds on ebay as a 'symbolic message'.
However, while I admire wolfie's perspective and candour, it's difficult not to be concerned. Bowls, Nerdotic, Patron, Alterori and the other usual suspects are more savvy, more adept and, critically, fiscally involved than the gatekeepers and malcontents of old. Paulmorris, Magister or Levine whining is one thing, it's just screaming into a void. These people are making a profit off of poisoning the well: through patreon, through paypal donations, through ad revenue because Youtube is this broken now and rewards scaremongering with top search results. Worse still, despite the ugly thumbnails and hyperbolic titles, their calm, measured delivery and careful wording is enough to dupe people into thinking their grossly misinformed complaints are valid criticisms of the show. When you can, in the case of the first, spend most of your Punjab review complaining about Muslims and not the episode, and your fanbase just accepts it... something's really wrong.
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Post by mark687 on Feb 1, 2019 21:37:06 GMT
I wouldn't say they're more savvy or adapt I would say they're more hypocritical "We can attack the Fan Base for liking the show but don't you attack us for criticising it," or "We've got no problem with Gender or Racial representation on the show expect we do have a problem with Gender or Racial representation on the show"
Regards
mark687
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Feb 1, 2019 22:48:55 GMT
I wouldn't say they're more savvy or adapt I would say they're more hypocritical "We can attack the Fan Base for liking the show but don't you attack us for criticising it," or "We've got no problem with Gender or Racial representation on the show expect we do have a problem with Gender or Racial representation on the show" Regards mark687 They're savvier because they know how to play Youtube's broken algorhitmn and get shot to the top of the searches, and make some cash in the process.
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Feb 2, 2019 5:08:50 GMT
I wouldn't say they're more savvy or adapt I would say they're more hypocritical "We can attack the Fan Base for liking the show but don't you attack us for criticising it," or "We've got no problem with Gender or Racial representation on the show expect we do have a problem with Gender or Racial representation on the show" Regards mark687 They're savvier because they know how to play Youtube's broken algorhitmn and get shot to the top of the searches, and make some cash in the process.
The most frustrating thing about a lot of them is that when you look at whatever their favoured social media platform is, they usually present as quite reasonable, progressive and "right on" in a lot of other areas, they just have this ridiculous blind spot about Doctor Who. I mean, there's a former member of this forum who is really passionate about equality and political correctness - in a good way - and he Tweets frequently and responsibly (ie without violating Wheaton's Law) but NuWho is where he takes the gloves off. And he isn't the only one. Ironically, I used to follow a few blogs (I don't know why, in hindsight) that used to excoriate RTD and The Moff for not being PC enough - Martha's mum being forced to wear a maid's outfit in LOTTL was, apparently, deeply racist and harked back to the days of slavery (never mind that she's forced to do it by The Master) - while there were others who always complained about the gay agenda. As nucleus says, they're a lot more savvy than they used to be and YouTube gives them a much wider audience than their fanzines ever would have.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Feb 2, 2019 23:36:36 GMT
They're savvier because they know how to play Youtube's broken algorhitmn and get shot to the top of the searches, and make some cash in the process.
The most frustrating thing about a lot of them is that when you look at whatever their favoured social media platform is, they usually present as quite reasonable, progressive and "right on" in a lot of other areas, they just have this ridiculous blind spot about Doctor Who. I mean, there's a former member of this forum who is really passionate about equality and political correctness - in a good way - and he Tweets frequently and responsibly (ie without violating Wheaton's Law) but NuWho is where he takes the gloves off. And he isn't the only one. Ironically, I used to follow a few blogs (I don't know why, in hindsight) that used to excoriate RTD and The Moff for not being PC enough - Martha's mum being forced to wear a maid's outfit in LOTTL was, apparently, deeply racist and harked back to the days of slavery (never mind that she's forced to do it by The Master) - while there were others who always complained about the gay agenda. As nucleus says, they're a lot more savvy than they used to be and YouTube gives them a much wider audience than their fanzines ever would have. To add: If someone's first reaction to Rosa is 'but what about the white people?!', well... yeah, says everything, doesn't it?
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Post by mrperson on Feb 3, 2019 23:31:06 GMT
It's a waste. A terrible, awful waste. Of time, of energy, of a person's life. It's why it's good to ask the question as fans: "Is that what defines us? Is that who we are?"
Well, guys... Is it?
I don't think it is. I don't think that's who we are, who we should define ourselves by. We are all capable of so much more than that.
This particular person i replied & said why is it a female Doctor & the new logo led to you boycotting Big Finish & missing out on some excellent audio dramas? I more or less got same reply with Chibnall should be fired with Jodie get a male Doctor back. Like i said i was totally against Jodies casting but i gave her a chance & i love her performance as the Doctor if this person against the changes that's fine but why cut off your nose to spite your face. I'm huge Star Wars fan but i loathe & detest Last Jedi & Force Awakens but i loved Rogue One so i simply don't add TFA or TLJ to my collection for me ROTJ is the last film in the main saga & i go with Tim Zahns novels as my future canon i don't boycott Star Wars because i loathe the latest trilogy. The world is very strange.
I may not have learned much in life, but if I've learned anything it's that quite a lot of people are utter ***holes and not worth the time of day.
Earth: "a hive of scum and villainy".
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Post by masterdoctor on Feb 10, 2019 19:25:27 GMT
A really nice change of pace when it comes to youtube criticism, this video is actually well thought out, doesn't conflate the series to anything more than disappointing and actually makes some good points. www.youtube.com/watch?v=aysMP3z0NC4
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Mar 16, 2019 1:43:36 GMT
It's a waste. A terrible, awful waste. Of time, of energy, of a person's life. It's why it's good to ask the question as fans: "Is that what defines us? Is that who we are?"
Well, guys... Is it?
I don't think it is. I don't think that's who we are, who we should define ourselves by. We are all capable of so much more than that.
I've been kicking around a much bigger spiel to cap off the whole 'anti-Jodie/anti-Chris/NotMyDoctor discussion' here, but I think Steven DeKnight (Showrunner on Daredevil and Spartacus) encapsulates my key point in a thread devoted more to screenwriting conduct but, as you'll read, can easily be applied to fandom: Criticism and honesty are vital in media, and it's important to have a fandom who ask questions and think. However, no meaningful dialogue can be had when you root criticism in bad faith sophistry-scaremongering, conspiracy theories about 'diversity quotas' and minority groups you don't like and taking every opportunity to insult the creative team and cast for things which have nothing to do with the stories. The usual names I and others have discussed before on here have given Chris and the BBC no incentive, assuming there was any, to listen to them, selling out mature and nuaced critique of S11's faults for cheap outrage money. They have actual money wrapped up in making fan relations worse. This in turn hurts the rest of the discourse because these extreme voices drown out those more sensible, considerate voices that could open discussion across lines.
If you disliked or hated S11, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but find better voices than these guys. Or use the freedom of online platforms and speak for yourself.
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