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Post by charlesuirdhein on Nov 27, 2018 22:22:24 GMT
Theory: The War Master isn't the "War Master" at all. Ok, he's the Master around for the Time War, sure, BUT...he's not the War Master in the same way that the War Doctor is the War Doctor, the one to abandon what it means to be the Master (mostly, we've seen the War Doctor is still a good person in there after all).
Just pondering on whether there was that sort of a War Master out there. Or will Missy's stumbling towards the light give us a next incarnation more anti-hero than villain? (blah blah dead, yeah, right).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2018 22:42:32 GMT
It's an interesting question. I guess it depends largely on what you believe the Master's raison d'être to be. The Delgado incarnation while malevolent struck me as someone who if you met at the bus stop wouldn't go out of his way to make your life a living hell (unlike, say, the Ainley incarnation who might just kill you for fun). Wasted energy. You might even be able to chat with him in between his next ploy for universal domination. Putting aside implanted personalities like John Smith and Professor Yana, there are a few incarnations floating about on the fringes that do point to a less controlling and sympathetic side to him.
The War King from the future War (mentioned in The Taking of Planet 5) is implied to be an older Master who returned to Gallifrey at their request to become their Lord President, the reason for his change being that the Doctor might actually have been the first casualty of that particular conflict. It was time to come home and reconsider where he stood.
Another is the Man with the Rosette who appears in The Adventuress of Henrietta Street. Same sort of deal. He's clean-shaven, while the Doctor has grown a beard and remarks that the nature of the universe was such at that moment that neither were really "goodies" or "baddies" anymore. It had gotten a lot more complicated.
The Infinity Doctors also had the Magistrate who also worked alongside the Doctor, even with his temptations. They'd shared differences in the past, but had since reconciled.
So there are a few candidates here and there who could qualify for the being who forsook the Master.
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mbt66
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Post by mbt66 on Aug 10, 2019 15:15:34 GMT
(Sorry this is a little off topic, but didn’t think it worth starting a new thread for)
Is there scope for an incarnation of the Master between Saxon and Missy?
The Eleventh Doctor never got to have “his Master” on television, so could Big Finish give him a new version of his nemesis on audio? Or would that pose too many contradictions?
I appreciate this is a pointless question as Matt Smith is not currently working with Big Finish.
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Post by sherlock on Aug 10, 2019 15:32:45 GMT
(Sorry this is a little off topic, but didn’t think it worth starting a new thread for) Is there scope for an incarnation of the Master between Saxon and Missy? The Eleventh Doctor never got to have “his Master” on television, so could Big Finish give him a new version of his nemesis on audio? Or would that pose too many contradictions? I appreciate this is a pointless question as Matt Smith is not currently working with Big Finish. The implication in The Doctor Falls seems to be Simm’s Master is set to regenerate into Missy (I think he even says as much), but I suppose there’s enough vagueness for new incarnation.
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mbt66
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Post by mbt66 on Aug 10, 2019 15:40:51 GMT
(Sorry this is a little off topic, but didn’t think it worth starting a new thread for) Is there scope for an incarnation of the Master between Saxon and Missy? The Eleventh Doctor never got to have “his Master” on television, so could Big Finish give him a new version of his nemesis on audio? Or would that pose too many contradictions? I appreciate this is a pointless question as Matt Smith is not currently working with Big Finish. The implication in The Doctor Falls seems to be Simm’s Master is set to regenerate into Missy (I think he even says as much), but I suppose there’s enough vagueness for new incarnation. Big Finish, we like vagueness!
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Post by J.A. Prentice on Aug 10, 2019 18:31:54 GMT
It's an interesting question. I guess it depends largely on what you believe the Master's raison d'être to be. The Delgado incarnation while malevolent struck me as someone who if you met at the bus stop wouldn't go out of his way to make your life a living hell (unlike, say, the Ainley incarnation who might just kill you for fun). Wasted energy. You might even be able to chat with him in between his next ploy for universal domination. Putting aside implanted personalities like John Smith and Professor Yana, there are a few incarnations floating about on the fringes that do point to a less controlling and sympathetic side to him. The War King from the future War (mentioned in The Taking of Planet 5) is implied to be an older Master who returned to Gallifrey at their request to become their Lord President, the reason for his change being that the Doctor might actually have been the first casualty of that particular conflict. It was time to come home and reconsider where he stood. Another is the Man with the Rosette who appears in The Adventuress of Henrietta Street. Same sort of deal. He's clean-shaven, while the Doctor has grown a beard and remarks that the nature of the universe was such at that moment that neither were really "goodies" or "baddies" anymore. It had gotten a lot more complicated. The Infinity Doctors also had the Magistrate who also worked alongside the Doctor, even with his temptations. They'd shared differences in the past, but had since reconciled. So there are a few candidates here and there who could qualify for the being who forsook the Master. Faction Paradox expands on the War King, implying very strongly (to the limits of copyright) that he's the Master (and the War Chief, just because), which does make him the best candidate for the War Master, in the sense of a Master who's completely abandoned what it means to be the Master in order to save his people and stop the War. I'd actually really love for the Master to be an anti-hero when the show brings them back: someone who doesn't have the Doctor's rules or code, but isn't actively evil.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2019 0:26:51 GMT
It's an interesting question. I guess it depends largely on what you believe the Master's raison d'être to be. The Delgado incarnation while malevolent struck me as someone who if you met at the bus stop wouldn't go out of his way to make your life a living hell (unlike, say, the Ainley incarnation who might just kill you for fun). Wasted energy. You might even be able to chat with him in between his next ploy for universal domination. Putting aside implanted personalities like John Smith and Professor Yana, there are a few incarnations floating about on the fringes that do point to a less controlling and sympathetic side to him. The War King from the future War (mentioned in The Taking of Planet 5) is implied to be an older Master who returned to Gallifrey at their request to become their Lord President, the reason for his change being that the Doctor might actually have been the first casualty of that particular conflict. It was time to come home and reconsider where he stood. Another is the Man with the Rosette who appears in The Adventuress of Henrietta Street. Same sort of deal. He's clean-shaven, while the Doctor has grown a beard and remarks that the nature of the universe was such at that moment that neither were really "goodies" or "baddies" anymore. It had gotten a lot more complicated. The Infinity Doctors also had the Magistrate who also worked alongside the Doctor, even with his temptations. They'd shared differences in the past, but had since reconciled. So there are a few candidates here and there who could qualify for the being who forsook the Master. Faction Paradox expands on the War King, implying very strongly (to the limits of copyright) that he's the Master (and the War Chief, just because), which does make him the best candidate for the War Master, in the sense of a Master who's completely abandoned what it means to be the Master in order to save his people and stop the War. I'd actually really love for the Master to be an anti-hero when the show brings them back: someone who doesn't have the Doctor's rules or code, but isn't actively evil. Yes! With a fantastic performance from Philip Madoc. I need to go back and revisit those at some point. Actually, it was one of your stories that got me thinking... Maybe the Master is more interested in taking power than possessing it? It's not the having, but the getting, which is why his philosophy is ultimately self-defeating. It'll never be enough, there will always be more lands to conquer. A Master satisfied in his own dominion essentially ceases to be the Master (viz. The Sea Devils where he's running the prison). He becomes a War King or Magistrate. Someone with power -- not necessarily complete, but nevertheless, in a position of authority -- with no desire to spread beyond that. I'd enjoy that. It'd be interesting if they brought him/her back as someone who could be interpreted as taking the kinds of risks that the Doctor wouldn't (and vice versa). Challenging a different set of preconceptions. Perhaps someone who sees themselves as doing the messy jobs:
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Aug 11, 2019 9:33:05 GMT
The Master is someone who would never quite know what to do with an empire once he seized it other than destory it or wait for the Doctor to turn up. The Zombeevers even spells it out, he was the ruler of some armpit of a world for kicks and giggles and all he did was destroy it (c.f. I am the Master) or use it as a Doctor trap (c.f. Animal Instinct).
Some are less encombered by the need for a goal (Missy is just having a laugh at the expense of the cosmos) or have goals that are directly related to their immediate needs (Zombeevers and Fancy Dress Bruce) but some really do think they can rule the cosmos. The Velvet Penguin for example. But the War Master? He’s got the best of all worlds as far as the Master goes. He’s relatively sane, he’s a Time Lord, he has a TARDIS, and as long as he’s clever and does the odd job for the Time Lords and avoids the Daleks there is no one to stop him. Anyone who can outwit Professor River Song is a force to be reckoned with.
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