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Post by nucleusofswarm on Mar 23, 2019 0:40:41 GMT
I'd love to see the Six stories BF couldn't adapt made into books: maybe get Goss to do a souped up rework of Ultimate Evil from the old novel, or maybe work with Michael Feeney Callun and finally do 'The Children of January'. If for nothing else just to see a giant evil space bee on the cover with 'THE LOST 80s ADVENTURE, THE CHILDREN OF JANUARY' in some bold, 50s monster-movie style font.
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Post by fitzoliverj on Mar 23, 2019 10:13:27 GMT
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Post by shallacatop on Mar 23, 2019 10:39:12 GMT
I think getting Stephen Fry to novelise his unmade story would be the next biggest candidate.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2019 12:57:39 GMT
I don't know what ones are a big enough deal to really get the publisher excited enough to bite and fans interested enough to buy. I mean, Yellow Fever always seemed like a cool idea but there wasn't enough on the outline to do anything with as I understand. Stories like Project Beta Sigma, to pick one, would have been the alternate first Fifth Doctor story, may seem like a fun alt-story for fans but I don't think getting Flanagan and McCulloch back to write a novel gets a 100th of the press, or sales, that Tom writing a legendary "lost" story does. Ditto CHildren Of January and many others. Most of the ideas that could be used were either adapted by BF or repurporsed and used for the novels. The amount of lost stories that have been unadapted and have enough material to adapt is pretty small. The amount that would have any real commercial appeal even among Who fans...even less. I think an audio version of Ultimate Evil is in the works according to Wally and that'd sell fine as BF have a fanbase in us who follow them and are loyal enough for them to take chances - but I can't see any commercial appeal in expanding his Target version to one of the prestige hardback releases at all.
I guess, if I had to pick one, The Final Game as an Unbound kinda thing, to give a "final" story for The Third Doctor and Delgado's Master. Even that is reaching.
BF was, and is, the best way to resurrect these lost stories. The commercial appeal issue dissipates massively due to the loyal and consistent fanbase for any DW at BF, especially full cast with The Doctor. In print, I just don't see the market for these without a hook like the Douglas Adams or Tom connections.
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Post by fitzoliverj on Mar 23, 2019 13:47:05 GMT
I think getting Stephen Fry to novelise his unmade story would be the next biggest candidate. Stories like that could, at least in theory, be done for audio if BF ever revived the Lost Stories. To go straight to novelisation you need to look for something that would be impractical to do with actors (BF never did "Scratchman" because two key actors had passed away and the plot was considered uneven and too visual).
{Spoiler for something not strictly related to the subject but which is associated, you have been warned}
Also, there is speculation that Fry's script may have been retooled for the next series of the 13th Doctor. |
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Post by iainmclaughlin on Mar 26, 2019 13:05:04 GMT
I'd be intrigued to read a novelisation of Denny Martin Flynn's The Jewels of Time, just for a totally different take on things. BF's The Masters of Luxor is very good but I wouldn't mind a novel of that... or perhaps of the planned final adventure for Pertwee and the Master - if there was anything beyond notes on a fag packet. Were I offered the chance to novelise one story myself... Operation Werewolf.
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Post by iainmclaughlin on Mar 27, 2019 17:44:24 GMT
Okay, I have been giving this far too much thought. I mean, FAR too much thought. I should be writing a book but I'm thinking about this. You're all a bad influence on me. Go and sit on the naughty step for 5 minutes.
Other than those I mentioned above - and I would love to go at the Jewels of Time as a full-on Hollywood epic - I think others are more likely.I'd love Christopher Priest's Sealed Orders but that's incredibly unlikely given the way Priest feels about Doctor Who...
I think they'll want to stick with Tom so either it will be an entirely new story or... Lost in the Dark Dimension, for being a Tom story, and being famous/infamous for having been cancelled. It would require Adrian Rigelsford to let it go, though, plus rights for Daleks and Cybermen... I'm talking myself out of it now. No, I'm sticking with it. I now put 50p on Lost in the Dark Dimension. But can it be an each way bet?
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
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Post by lidar2 on Mar 28, 2019 9:22:32 GMT
I think any lost story needs to have something that will be a "hook" for the potential customer. Simply A Lost Story by A N Other author probably won't cut it. Douglas Adams, Tom Baker on the cover will do the trick, maybe Stephen Fry?
There was a DWB story around 1993 that Eric Saward was going to novelise his 2 dalek stories and Yellow fever. Obviously never happened, but the 2 dalek stories are now being novelised, so maybe Yellow Fever is a possibility, didn't Saward do something for Ian Levene on Yellow Fever a few years ago? On the plus side it would have the Robert Holmes name on the cover, plus the Brigadier, the Master, the Rani and the Autons so it would tick a lot of marketing boxes. The only problem is authenticity - so little exists of the original that it would really be Saward's story based on his 24 year old memories of the back of an envelope story outline by Robert Holmes.
If we're talking Robert Holmes lost stories there is also the Six Doctors, his original outline for the 20th Anniversary sepcial
If we're talking Eric Saward lost stories then I would be interested to read his version of the Ultimate Foe, with a resolution of the cliffhanger, as an alternative version.
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Post by J.A. Prentice on Mar 30, 2019 2:51:34 GMT
The chances of the BBC releasing and promoting a book titled Yellow Fever by the writer of Talons after the DWM drama are slim to say the least. Maybe under a different title.
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Mar 30, 2019 3:16:37 GMT
Dude, Yellow Fever is a genuine disease, it’s spread by mosquitoes.
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Post by J.A. Prentice on Mar 30, 2019 3:25:08 GMT
Dude, Yellow Fever is a genuine disease, it’s spread by mosquitoes. I am fully aware of that, but given the story has nothing to do with the disease and was set in Singapore, I'd say the BBC would still be wary of it. Obviously, without a proper outline or details, it's unclear how the title tied into the story but I can easily see news outlets making the connection, then leaping on Talons via the Holmes connection, causing the BBC PR hell. Edit: There’s even less info out there than I thought. Just a setting, a first shot, and a list of characters. I’ve always suspected that the story wouldn’t actually be anything great, especially given the JNT checklist nature of the assignment, and it’s only the unmade Holmes story aspect that makes people think it would have been a classic. But I wasn’t expecting Scratchman to be great either and it was incredible. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2019 4:03:41 GMT
Dude, Yellow Fever is a genuine disease, it’s spread by mosquitoes. I am fully aware of that, but given the story has nothing to do with the disease and was set in Singapore, I'd say the BBC would still be wary of it. Obviously, without a proper outline or details, it's unclear how the title tied into the story but I can easily see news outlets making the connection, then leaping on Talons via the Holmes connection, causing the BBC PR hell. I think an opportunity was missed there by not including the disease itself. There's honestly a really good villanous scheme that could be drawn from it if it were taken literally. Singapore is a major hub for international tourism with 3,031,000 arrivals in 1985 alone. How about the Master and the Rani are co-opted by the Autons to develop a variant of yellow fever that transmits a genetically-modified disease. Something that cannibalises human cells into plastic. Suddenly, the most dangerous thing on the continent isn't two renegade Time Lords, nor their alien sponsors, but a mosquito no larger than a fingernail. They could spread it through their travelling theatre.
The name could easily be changed to something like The Anatomy Lesson. The addition of the Brigadier might be overegging it, so let's throw in UNIT's Singapore branch instead. The Doctor's contact is a Brigadier. Brigadier Hui Jie Utama.
I... need to go... things... Yes.  *zip* |
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Mar 30, 2019 9:08:56 GMT
I am fully aware of that, but given the story has nothing to do with the disease and was set in Singapore, I'd say the BBC would still be wary of it. Obviously, without a proper outline or details, it's unclear how the title tied into the story but I can easily see news outlets making the connection, then leaping on Talons via the Holmes connection, causing the BBC PR hell. I think an opportunity was missed there by not including the disease itself. There's honestly a really good villanous scheme that could be drawn from it if it were taken literally. Singapore is a major hub for international tourism with 3,031,000 arrivals in 1985 alone. How about the Master and the Rani are co-opted by the Autons to develop a variant of yellow fever that transmits a genetically-modified disease. Something that cannibalises human cells into plastic. Suddenly, the most dangerous thing on the continent isn't two renegade Time Lords, nor their alien sponsors, but a mosquito no larger than a fingernail. They could spread it through their travelling theatre.
The name could easily be changed to something like The Anatomy Lesson. The addition of the Brigadier might be overegging it, so let's throw in UNIT's Singapore branch instead. The Doctor's contact is a Brigadier. Brigadier Hui Jie Utama.
I... need to go... things... Yes. *zip*That sounds pretty nifty.
However, I think Holmes writing Talons is less the reason for wariness, assuming you could even do something with the few scraps he left behind. I think it's more direct and obvious than that: it's kind of hard in 2019 to get away with a story set in Asia called Yellow Fever.
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Post by fitzoliverj on Mar 30, 2019 15:15:42 GMT
Okay, I have been giving this far too much thought. I mean, FAR too much thought. Be careful. This topic came up fairly recently, I think, and you started to get enthusiastic about doing "Dimensions in Time".....
(I agree, "The Jewels of Time" would be a good idea, but that's mainly because it's the pick of a pretty poor crop of pre-TVM proposals. If somebody was to do this, they'd have to drop the pre-first Doctor character to avoid being pursued by angry fans, and I've never been sure that the fourth Doctor cameo is actually consistent with what happens in "The Armageddon Factor" either).
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Post by number13 on Mar 30, 2019 16:19:55 GMT
I am fully aware of that, but given the story has nothing to do with the disease and was set in Singapore, I'd say the BBC would still be wary of it. Obviously, without a proper outline or details, it's unclear how the title tied into the story but I can easily see news outlets making the connection, then leaping on Talons via the Holmes connection, causing the BBC PR hell. I think an opportunity was missed there by not including the disease itself. There's honestly a really good villanous scheme that could be drawn from it if it were taken literally. Singapore is a major hub for international tourism with 3,031,000 arrivals in 1985 alone. How about the Master and the Rani are co-opted by the Autons to develop a variant of yellow fever that transmits a genetically-modified disease. Something that cannibalises human cells into plastic. Suddenly, the most dangerous thing on the continent isn't two renegade Time Lords, nor their alien sponsors, but a mosquito no larger than a fingernail. They could spread it through their travelling theatre.
The name could easily be changed to something like The Anatomy Lesson. The addition of the Brigadier might be overegging it, so let's throw in UNIT's Singapore branch instead. The Doctor's contact is a Brigadier. Brigadier Hui Jie Utama.
I... need to go... things... Yes. *zip*The full working title was 'Yellow Fever and How to Cure It' which does suggest a genuine disease outbreak. And Robert Holmes had for many years had a storyline in mind about mutation called 'Aliens in the Blood' which became a radio series, so he had already thought about the possibilities of disease/cellular biology as a science-fiction plot.
JN-T presumably picked Singapore as an 'eye-catching' location out of thin air. Real yellow fever is thought to have originated in West Africa and was a dreaded plague in the Carribean of pirates fame, including several historical outbreaks in New Orleans - which had been JN-T's previous 'eye-catching' overseas location first choice for 'The Two Doctors' of course, so that location would be much more historically appropriate for a story of that title, if BF or anyone ever thought of making it.
Maybe a new UNIT story - a rematch with the Autons and there could be serious implications for Josh as a possible ideal 'carrier' of plastic "Yellow Fever" plague given his altered physiology? But I'm sure Osgood would be able to supply the 'and How to Cure It' part of the storyline in time to save him and the world, at the eleventh hour naturally!
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Post by iainmclaughlin on Mar 30, 2019 18:56:55 GMT
Okay, I have been giving this far too much thought. I mean, FAR too much thought. Be careful. This topic came up fairly recently, I think, and you started to get enthusiastic about doing "Dimensions in Time".....
(I agree, "The Jewels of Time" would be a good idea, but that's mainly because it's the pick of a pretty poor crop of pre-TVM proposals. If somebody was to do this, they'd have to drop the pre-first Doctor character to avoid being pursued by angry fans, and I've never been sure that the fourth Doctor cameo is actually consistent with what happens in "The Armageddon Factor" either).
I get enthusiastic about Doctor Who very easily. I now know exactly how I'd do Dimensions in Time. I had a story in my ganderbag called Instant Karma. I'd roll it into that, expand the actual script so that it was more than just (mostly ropey) expositional dialogue. Really broaden it out and beef it up. Having said that, there's a fan DiT novelisation available on Lulu, which I'm going to get out of curiosity. I've done a fair bit of novelising lately and I have to admit I rather enjoy it, so if they're up for it... |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2019 2:42:30 GMT
I think an opportunity was missed there by not including the disease itself. There's honestly a really good villanous scheme that could be drawn from it if it were taken literally. Singapore is a major hub for international tourism with 3,031,000 arrivals in 1985 alone. How about the Master and the Rani are co-opted by the Autons to develop a variant of yellow fever that transmits a genetically-modified disease. Something that cannibalises human cells into plastic. Suddenly, the most dangerous thing on the continent isn't two renegade Time Lords, nor their alien sponsors, but a mosquito no larger than a fingernail. They could spread it through their travelling theatre.
The name could easily be changed to something like The Anatomy Lesson. The addition of the Brigadier might be overegging it, so let's throw in UNIT's Singapore branch instead. The Doctor's contact is a Brigadier. Brigadier Hui Jie Utama.
I... need to go... things... Yes. *zip*The full working title was 'Yellow Fever and How to Cure It' which does suggest a genuine disease outbreak. And Robert Holmes had for many years had a storyline in mind about mutation called 'Aliens in the Blood' which became a radio series, so he had already thought about the possibilities of disease/cellular biology as a science-fiction plot.
JN-T presumably picked Singapore as an 'eye-catching' location out of thin air. Real yellow fever is thought to have originated in West Africa and was a dreaded plague in the Carribean of pirates fame, including several historical outbreaks in New Orleans - which had been JN-T's previous 'eye-catching' overseas location first choice for 'The Two Doctors' of course, so that location would be much more historically appropriate for a story of that title, if BF or anyone ever thought of making it.
Maybe a new UNIT story - a rematch with the Autons and there could be serious implications for Josh as a possible ideal 'carrier' of plastic "Yellow Fever" plague given his altered physiology? But I'm sure Osgood would be able to supply the 'and How to Cure It' part of the storyline in time to save him and the world, at the eleventh hour naturally! You know, I think you've just said I've been plotting like Robert Holmes. That's rather neat, thanks. 
Ah, but you see -- as cool as a story in New Orleans or West Africa would be -- the historical precedents established in both means they're more likely to possess readily available means to combat it. They'd know how to quarantine and contain it. Singapore, on the other hand, would have to adapt pre-existing protocols for other viral outbreaks. That would take time. If the virus were brought across in a TARDIS, rather than via an international flight, they might even have trouble identifying the vector. Patient zero would appear to the result of a virus local to the region, not something typically found in Africa or the Americas. Add to that the plastic-salivating mutagen and it'd be impossible to overcome without extraterrestrial knowledge.
That could also work. I haven't a clue how you'd overcome the mosquito population (yet), but in light of recent outbreaks such as ebola and swine flu, it'd be terribly relevant.
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Post by iainmclaughlin on Mar 31, 2019 8:41:41 GMT
Many, many, many, many moons ago when there was talk of Eric Saward novelising what has been discussed here as Yellow Fever as part of the Missing Episodes series, I saw the story was going under the title Evil of the Autons. I always thought it sounded like a stereotype Doctor Who title and a bit too "safe". I have warmed to it a bit over the years. It could get round concerns about the title, though? Thinking about it, and given how little of this story was actually written down, probably the place in the world with most info on it is Saward's brain. He and Holmes discussed it several time, didn't they? How do we get into Saward's brain?
As for the Autons, for the past 3 years I've been sitting on an Auton story, desperate to find a home for it. It's either the best thing I've come up with in years or quite the stupidest... I think it may be the former but it wouldn't surprise me if it was the latter.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2019 9:22:06 GMT
Many, many, many, many moons ago when there was talk of Eric Saward novelising what has been discussed here as Yellow Fever as part of the Missing Episodes series, I saw the story was going under the title Evil of the Autons. I always thought it sounded like a stereotype Doctor Who title and a bit too "safe". I have warmed to it a bit over the years. It could get round concerns about the title, though? Thinking about it, and given how little of this story was actually written down, probably the place in the world with most info on it is Saward's brain. He and Holmes discussed it several time, didn't they? How do we get into Saward's brain? As for the Autons, for the past 3 years I've been sitting on an Auton story, desperate to find a home for it. It's either the best thing I've come up with in years or quite the stupidest... I think it may be the former but it wouldn't surprise me if it was the latter. Ooh, tricky... The ideal avenue would be an advance phone call and a sacrificial bottle of wine for an interview on the subject. It'd make a great article, actually. What Saward recalls about the project vs. the rumours that have abounded about it in the meantime. Whether the Autons' influence was planned to extend into things like rubber bullets that bounce around corners, that sort of thing. The only other avenue would be digging around in old articles about Season 23A and seeing what popped up. According to a fanzine called InVision, David Banks may have been slated to play the Auton leader at one point. It'd be fascinating to get a look at the outline for "Part One".
*taps upper lip thoughtfully* How long would this story likely be? |
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Post by number13 on Mar 31, 2019 23:36:20 GMT
You know, I think you've just said I've been plotting like Robert Holmes. That's rather neat, thanks.
Ah, but you see -- as cool as a story in New Orleans or West Africa would be -- the historical precedents established in both means they're more likely to possess readily available means to combat it. They'd know how to quarantine and contain it. Singapore, on the other hand, would have to adapt pre-existing protocols for other viral outbreaks. That would take time. If the virus were brought across in a TARDIS, rather than via an international flight, they might even have trouble identifying the vector. Patient zero would appear to the result of a virus local to the region, not something typically found in Africa or the Americas. Add to that the plastic-salivating mutagen and it'd be impossible to overcome without extraterrestrial knowledge.
That could also work. I haven't a clue how you'd overcome the mosquito population (yet), but in light of recent outbreaks such as ebola and swine flu, it'd be terribly relevant.
You're welcome!
Yes, I see your ideas about location - as for the 'mosquitos', well, if the Rani was involved with the Autons, I'd expect them to be Nestene-powered nano-bots of some kind rather than unreliable Earth biology. She's not the sort of villain to leave things to chance and the Nestenes only work with their plastic analogues of life as far as we've seen?
This might make it easier for the Doctor or UNIT to ulitimately nobble them of course, but villains always underestimate their opponents.
(As to length, it was proposed as a "six-parter", I think, like 'The Two Doctors', even though in practice that was three parts but you know what I mean!)
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*zip*
