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Post by fantasticalice on Apr 3, 2019 5:42:34 GMT
I just wanted to say how amazing BF has been lately. As a mixed race Jew it is wonderful to see so many more People of colour in all the Releases and something even mpre important that speaks to how important diverse characters are.
I have crawled into a delightful Big Finish hole lately. From listening to God Among Us practically non stop to UNIT to master of Callous to Ravenous and just cracking open Gallifrey.
And through all of it I have started to see myself as a little more... normal. And thats why this is so so important. From messy relationships to inspiring relationships to a character having His husband and children threatened by a captor I feel normal.
Look, Goodbye Piccadilly is not only thoroughy researched but a lot of today is still beset with the issues of 1950s SoHo.
But when RTD brought Doctor Who back he gave us a Beautiful Multi coloured world whwre people of colour and people who found their own gender attractive were just as common as in real life.
I am actually thankful because Doctor Who has made it jarring to see new tv/movies when there is naight but a sea of white.
But BF has worked really hard on not just stuff like Torchwood but throughout their ranges to not only show a realistic world but its actually started to male me feel normal.
And when for years I have had people tell me what garbage I am and how disgusting and awful I am and made it so hard for me that I am certain I will never find love its good to feel normal.
When I listen to BF I know that I they actually want me as a customer. Instead of several recent films that they made sure they cut out anything that could possibly
y make me feel like Im not a horrible aberration.
It also made me realise how easy it is to make someone like me feel welcome. Why cant the character with one line be going home to his Husband and kids?
Why cant the main character who is overcome by grief be grieving for Her wife?
Considering how Frequently every 1-2 hpur script for Everything from a radioplay to a movie mentions major and minor characters SOs its really easy to make those mentions be people like.
An
I jist listened to a box set where the main characters was a Lesbian couple and in several mpnths I get Paternoster which stars a Lesbian couple and their potato butler.
This is important.
Because it doesn't make us feel so isolated and unwanted.
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Post by project37 on Apr 3, 2019 10:05:37 GMT
I totally get it. My parents moved from India to the US in the early 70s and I was the first in my family to be born in this country. Growing up, I heard a lot of mocking accents and often saw caricatures in the media. It was just a sad frustrating truth I'd always lived with.
In 2002, I was enjoying the first series of Sarah Jane audios, but the final episode featured Toby Longworth doing a horrible Indian accent and I was beyond disappointed that they went that route. Either cast the right voice or just don't do it. I'd always hoped for DW story set in India, but if this was their approach, then no thank you. Even Sophie Aldred put on a ghastly stereotypical "Confucius say" accent for a throwaway line in 2006's "The Veiled Leopard". It just felt inconsiderate and tired.
In 2012, BF released "The Emerald Tiger", which is a story set in India. I was really nervous to hear the trailer. Imagine my reaction when I heard the beautiful authentic accents. I had a lovely brief exchange with Barnaby Edwards on the old BF forum and thanked him for making the effort to get it right, and was genuinely moved when he explained how important the casting process was for him. Basically, cast authentic voices and don't settle. That level of care and consideration goes a long way with me.
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Post by fantasticalice on Apr 4, 2019 15:53:48 GMT
I totally get it. My parents moved from India to the US in the early 70s and I was the first in my family to be born in this country. Growing up, I heard a lot of mocking accents and often saw caricatures in the media. It was just a sad frustrating truth I'd always lived with. In 2002, I was enjoying the first series of Sarah Jane audios, but the final episode featured Toby Longworth doing a horrible Indian accent and I was beyond disappointed that they went that route. Either cast the right voice or just don't do it. I'd always hoped for DW story set in India, but if this was their approach, then no thank you. Even Sophie Aldred put on a ghastly stereotypical "Confucius say" accent for a throwaway line in 2006's "The Veiled Leopard". It just felt inconsiderate and tired. In 2012, BF released "The Emerald Tiger", which is a story set in India. I was really nervous to hear the trailer. Imagine my reaction when I heard the beautiful authentic accents. I had a lovely brief exchange with Barnaby Edwards on the old BF forum and thanked him for making the effort to get it right, and was genuinely moved when he explained how important the casting process was for him. Basically, cast authentic voices and don't settle. That level of care and consideration goes a long way with me. Thats.. Really Beautiful. I am so glad you had such a greatexperience with it. Also... in solidarity: F@#€ Apu. And anyone who imitates like that. It's apalling how rare it is to hear a real accent in media. |
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Apr 7, 2019 12:40:21 GMT
Glad to hear you've gotten so much out of this.
Also great how they're broadening the writing talent in recent years: I think the number of female writers has almost tripled in size. AK Benedict, Emma Reeves, Jane Slavin, Una McCormack, Jenny Colgan, everybody on ATA Girl. Still a little lacking on POCs, but hey, they'll get there before long, I imagine.
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Post by muckypup on Apr 7, 2019 17:25:05 GMT
If diversity is such a great thing how come every new companion is female!.......lol
But seriously none of the female writers have written anything that has wow’ed me and some have written the worst stuff for me.........but Lisa Bowman is the best director they have a real safe pair of hands......
But I am not a fan of diversity for diversity’s sake, best person for the job is still best.......
But please let us get to a place where gender, race, religion is irrelevant, but if this is the way to get there......big finish are doing ok......
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Post by tuigirl on Apr 7, 2019 18:27:50 GMT
Because I just read a comment on here that got deleted-
no idea if it was meant to be offensive or not, it raises a VERY good point.
Why is it that many people (writers, directors, heck, scientist in my field!) we see as capable are white men?
Why is it that many things presented by people other than white men is not as good?
Why is most of the good stuff out there done by white men?
I think it is a sad truth and I think it has two reasons-
1. We all grew up with content created by white men. We got all so used to it that any change has the "You have re-decorated, I don't like it" effect
and to another extent
2. Many people who are not white and male have been discouraged a long time ago, so we do not see all people with potential to ever get there.
Sad stories from my own experience-
I grew up in a very backwards conservative village with very conservative parents.
Loving parents, but non-the-less, they could never deal with the fact I never was "a real girl".
As a kid, I always dreamed to play soccer, but was blocked at every step by the village youth soccer trainer, my own dad. Telling me that female soccer players look silly. Fast-forward 30 years, and the German woman soccer team is more successful than the boys and even my dad watches it.
I also several times tried out other sports I fancied (air rifle shooting and go-kart racing) where I was always turning out quite to be doing very well.
This was also blocked.
I only now, 25 years later, finally started archery and I am loving it and my dad gifted me a new Hungarian horse bow on my last birthday.
Where am I going with this?
Change is very much possible.
But, it takes time and an awful lot of patience. And an awful lot of strength and persistence by the people who want to do these things.
As I see it now, we are on the right track.
There will be set-backs.
But we have to start somewhere.
And yes, I also believe that the right person no matter of race, gender, age, whatever should do the job, not just because they belong to the majority of not male/white. That would be ideal.
But it will take time.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2019 7:22:09 GMT
Because I just read a comment on here that got deleted- no idea if it was meant to be offensive or not, it raises a VERY good point. Why is it that many people (writers, directors, heck, scientist in my field!) we see as capable are white men? Why is it that many things presented by people other than white men is not as good? Why is most of the good stuff out there done by white men? I think it is a sad truth and I think it has two reasons- 1. We all grew up with content created by white men. We got all so used to it that any change has the "You have re-decorated, I don't like it" effect and to another extent 2. Many people who are not white and male have been discouraged a long time ago, so we do not see all people with potential to ever get there. Sad stories from my own experience- I grew up in a very backwards conservative village with very conservative parents. Loving parents, but non-the-less, they could never deal with the fact I never was "a real girl". As a kid, I always dreamed to play soccer, but was blocked at every step by the village youth soccer trainer, my own dad. Telling me that female soccer players look silly. Fast-forward 30 years, and the German woman soccer team is more successful than the boys and even my dad watches it. I also several times tried out other sports I fancied (air rifle shooting and go-kart racing) where I was always turning out quite to be doing very well. This was also blocked. I only now, 25 years later, finally started archery and I am loving it and my dad gifted me a new Hungarian horse bow on my last birthday. Where am I going with this? Change is very much possible. But, it takes time and an awful lot of patience. And an awful lot of strength and persistence by the people who want to do these things. As I see it now, we are on the right track. There will be set-backs. But we have to start somewhere. And yes, I also believe that the right person no matter of race, gender, age, whatever should do the job, not just because they belong to the majority of not male/white. That would be ideal. But it will take time. The male majority has increasingly baffled me over the past months because the majority of people who show up to our workshops are women. There is the occassional male writer, but most are women. Where do they go...? Do they become publishers or just drop out of the market entirely? The only explanation I could really come up with for the disparity goes back to the old idea of a literary canon. We love our Asimovs, our Ellisons, our Pratchetts (and, indeed, marvellous writers they are), but it's only now that we're popularising our Octavia E. Butlers, Usula K. Le Guins and Diane Duanes. It's been there, but there's never been a wholly cosmopolitan platform before to raise awareness of it. It's always been dictated by litterateurs. Now, we've got one. The internet.
If people can recognise the name Mary Shelley as (or even more) readily as Percy Shelley, we can make a good precedent.
Personally, I'd love to hear more stories of Africa from an African perspective. It's such a big question mark and it really shouldn't be. I understand the impulse as a writer not to be too interested in home. For me, Australia would be one of the last things on my mind when coming up with a story. But, if there is an interest and a desire to explore those big question marks from writers, there is a market for it and a desire to see it. In science fiction more than any other genre, I would've thought, as we thrive on exploring otherness from the Other's perspective (the astonishing Invention of Death from just a year ago, for instance).
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Post by tuigirl on Apr 9, 2019 7:37:36 GMT
Because I just read a comment on here that got deleted- no idea if it was meant to be offensive or not, it raises a VERY good point. Why is it that many people (writers, directors, heck, scientist in my field!) we see as capable are white men? Why is it that many things presented by people other than white men is not as good? Why is most of the good stuff out there done by white men? I think it is a sad truth and I think it has two reasons- 1. We all grew up with content created by white men. We got all so used to it that any change has the "You have re-decorated, I don't like it" effect and to another extent 2. Many people who are not white and male have been discouraged a long time ago, so we do not see all people with potential to ever get there. Sad stories from my own experience- I grew up in a very backwards conservative village with very conservative parents. Loving parents, but non-the-less, they could never deal with the fact I never was "a real girl". As a kid, I always dreamed to play soccer, but was blocked at every step by the village youth soccer trainer, my own dad. Telling me that female soccer players look silly. Fast-forward 30 years, and the German woman soccer team is more successful than the boys and even my dad watches it. I also several times tried out other sports I fancied (air rifle shooting and go-kart racing) where I was always turning out quite to be doing very well. This was also blocked. I only now, 25 years later, finally started archery and I am loving it and my dad gifted me a new Hungarian horse bow on my last birthday. Where am I going with this? Change is very much possible. But, it takes time and an awful lot of patience. And an awful lot of strength and persistence by the people who want to do these things. As I see it now, we are on the right track. There will be set-backs. But we have to start somewhere. And yes, I also believe that the right person no matter of race, gender, age, whatever should do the job, not just because they belong to the majority of not male/white. That would be ideal. But it will take time. The male majority has increasingly baffled me over the past months because the majority of people who show up to our workshops are women. There is the occassional male writer, but most are women. Where do they go...? Do they become publishers or just drop out of the market entirely? The only explanation I could really come up with for the disparity goes back to the old idea of a literary canon. We love our Asimovs, our Ellisons, our Pratchetts (and, indeed, marvellous writers they are), but it's only now that we're popularising our Octavia E. Butlers, Usula K. Le Guins and Diane Duanes. It's been there, but there's never been a wholly cosmopolitan platform before to raise awareness of it. It's always been dictated by litterateurs. Now, we've got one. The internet.
If people can recognise the name Mary Shelley as (or even more) readily as Percy Shelley, we can make a good precedent.
Personally, I'd love to hear more stories of Africa from an African perspective. It's such a big question mark and it really shouldn't be. I understand the impulse as a writer not to be too interested in home. For me, Australia would be one of the last things on my mind when coming up with a story. But, if there is an interest and a desire to explore those big question marks from writers, there is a market for it and a desire to see it. In science fiction more than any other genre, I would've thought, as we thrive on exploring otherness from the Other's perspective (the astonishing Invention of Death from just a year ago, for instance).
I think you have a point there... I agree with you on that one, it seems that most of the stories out there are just re-hashing the old things- and I REALLY would love to see something new and original.
Well, as we have discussed before, I also love to write but for some reason most likely buried in my childhood and the then acquired "confidence", I just cannot for the life of me summon enough guts to go public. I just feel inadequate, although the select few people who were permitted to see one of my stories really liked them. I could not even make myself attend a workshop yet. Sigh.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2019 7:54:46 GMT
The male majority has increasingly baffled me over the past months because the majority of people who show up to our workshops are women. There is the occassional male writer, but most are women. Where do they go...? Do they become publishers or just drop out of the market entirely? The only explanation I could really come up with for the disparity goes back to the old idea of a literary canon. We love our Asimovs, our Ellisons, our Pratchetts (and, indeed, marvellous writers they are), but it's only now that we're popularising our Octavia E. Butlers, Usula K. Le Guins and Diane Duanes. It's been there, but there's never been a wholly cosmopolitan platform before to raise awareness of it. It's always been dictated by litterateurs. Now, we've got one. The internet.
If people can recognise the name Mary Shelley as (or even more) readily as Percy Shelley, we can make a good precedent.
Personally, I'd love to hear more stories of Africa from an African perspective. It's such a big question mark and it really shouldn't be. I understand the impulse as a writer not to be too interested in home. For me, Australia would be one of the last things on my mind when coming up with a story. But, if there is an interest and a desire to explore those big question marks from writers, there is a market for it and a desire to see it. In science fiction more than any other genre, I would've thought, as we thrive on exploring otherness from the Other's perspective (the astonishing Invention of Death from just a year ago, for instance).
I think you have a point there... I agree with you on that one, it seems that most of the stories out there are just re-hashing the old things- and I REALLY would love to see something new and original.
Well, as we have discussed before, I also love to write but for some reason most likely buried in my childhood and the then acquired "confidence", I just cannot for the life of me summon enough guts to go public. I just feel inadequate, although the select few people who were permitted to see one of my stories really liked them. I could not even make myself attend a workshop yet. Sigh. That may be true for the time being, but the wonderful thing about writing is that there's no window. Whenever you're ready to make that step, it'll all be there to make it work. As a firsttime author, you've actually got a lot more power than appears. Publishers, for instance, love potentials and newcomers are a mass of unknown quantities. There is every likelihood that you're the newness that people are looking for. But, as I said, when you feel ready. It can just start with a friend or a group of friends.
And a big public secret is... we all feel inadequate. Neil Gaiman has a marvellous story about meeting Neil Armstrong at a party. Gaiman had been sitting at the back the entire time going: I don't deserve to be here. What the hell am I doing here? Turns out that Armstrong was feeling exactly the same way. One of the few men who'd stepped out onto the Earth's Moon and he felt like a fraud: It can work. Whether you start tomorrow or in two years time, it can work. All it takes is persistence.  |
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Post by fantasticalice on Apr 12, 2019 18:40:50 GMT
I know BF is still struggling with their Writing staff being more diverse and that is important too but I can not Stress how Happy I have been lately.
The Master of Callous is my favourite release of the year because the main characters are not only two women in a relationship but a dysfunctional one.
We so often get stories of Perfection that end in needless death or one note characters that fade to the Background for no reason.
Master of Callous featured messy complex characters.
And what was even better as a Counter point was Ravenous 2 which had a lovely couple with a son. This story Honestly would not have flowed as well with a heterosexual couple. It made the set very balanced and also showed the difference in gender. A quiet Friendly woman with her partner being a firebrand with a temper worked as almost a mirror to Liv and Helen's own Personalities. It may have even been fuelling the Shipping fires.
And it meant the still rather alien 8th Doctor bonded with the Son due to his nature versus being saddled with a stroppy husband which would have likely happened in a different version.
It's stories like this that really speak to me because they show why queer relationships often fit the narrative better than others.
There are so many distinct stories that can be done on both ends just with reationships nd I love seeing it. Torchwood has actually given me a new perspective and love for male relationships as there is something so passionate and Beautiful about two men talking about life and death. Or the idea of having a Boys night out and still being able to do married couple jokes. It actually makes the jokes and nods funnier and more relatable because its both a Group of blokes ribbing each other and a married couple. These are fun stories that can show so much about the human condition and I like seeing it.
I also have to say that from Torchwood one to the spinoffs BF's Writing of gay characters has been really multifaceted and 3 dimensional. They feel like real people. And sometimes I don't like them because the character isnt supposed to be likeable.
And that may seem forein to some but the freedom to dislike a lgbt character is wonderful. Because it only happens when I'm not starved for Diversity. I don't feel like I have to like the lgbt character because there are many.
in their own little microcosm BF is just about at the point where they can have lgbt characters just as diverse as evryone else. I
It makes me feel like a real person.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Apr 13, 2019 0:56:48 GMT
Because I just read a comment on here that got deleted- no idea if it was meant to be offensive or not, it raises a VERY good point. Why is it that many people (writers, directors, heck, scientist in my field!) we see as capable are white men? Why is it that many things presented by people other than white men is not as good? Why is most of the good stuff out there done by white men? I think it is a sad truth and I think it has two reasons- 1. We all grew up with content created by white men. We got all so used to it that any change has the "You have re-decorated, I don't like it" effect and to another extent 2. Many people who are not white and male have been discouraged a long time ago, so we do not see all people with potential to ever get there. Sad stories from my own experience- I grew up in a very backwards conservative village with very conservative parents. Loving parents, but non-the-less, they could never deal with the fact I never was "a real girl". As a kid, I always dreamed to play soccer, but was blocked at every step by the village youth soccer trainer, my own dad. Telling me that female soccer players look silly. Fast-forward 30 years, and the German woman soccer team is more successful than the boys and even my dad watches it. I also several times tried out other sports I fancied (air rifle shooting and go-kart racing) where I was always turning out quite to be doing very well. This was also blocked. I only now, 25 years later, finally started archery and I am loving it and my dad gifted me a new Hungarian horse bow on my last birthday. Where am I going with this? Change is very much possible. But, it takes time and an awful lot of patience. And an awful lot of strength and persistence by the people who want to do these things. As I see it now, we are on the right track. There will be set-backs. But we have to start somewhere. And yes, I also believe that the right person no matter of race, gender, age, whatever should do the job, not just because they belong to the majority of not male/white. That would be ideal. But it will take time. The male majority has increasingly baffled me over the past months because the majority of people who show up to our workshops are women. There is the occassional male writer, but most are women. Where do they go...? Do they become publishers or just drop out of the market entirely? The only explanation I could really come up with for the disparity goes back to the old idea of a literary canon. We love our Asimovs, our Ellisons, our Pratchetts (and, indeed, marvellous writers they are), but it's only now that we're popularising our Octavia E. Butlers, Usula K. Le Guins and Diane Duanes. It's been there, but there's never been a wholly cosmopolitan platform before to raise awareness of it. It's always been dictated by litterateurs. Now, we've got one. The internet.
Both wolife and tui hit an important note that I've also brought up before: why is it, when meritocracy and 'best writer' are brought up, you never see female or POC writers brought up or be recommended? It's not like they don't exist or don't have impressive bodies of quality work.
Now look, I really dont want this to read as me slamming mucky, because I'm not and I don't want it to seem so, but his point kind of encapsulates a big issue: sorry, but real life is not a meritocracy and prejudice, even accidental, is still a thing, usually caused by myopia and the kind of cultural hegemony discussed above. We are simply not at a point where 'race blind' works because opportunities for writers of non-white backgrounds are still not levelled enough. As somebody in the industry, I know stories of POC writers whose work is not looked at, not even read and judged on merit, and the job is just given to another mediocre white candidate because they 'knew someone' or 'didn't rock the boat with pesky opinions'. If you don't create opportunities, how can you even remotely hope for people to have a shot?
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Post by fantasticalice on Apr 14, 2019 21:37:41 GMT
The male majority has increasingly baffled me over the past months because the majority of people who show up to our workshops are women. There is the occassional male writer, but most are women. Where do they go...? Do they become publishers or just drop out of the market entirely? The only explanation I could really come up with for the disparity goes back to the old idea of a literary canon. We love our Asimovs, our Ellisons, our Pratchetts (and, indeed, marvellous writers they are), but it's only now that we're popularising our Octavia E. Butlers, Usula K. Le Guins and Diane Duanes. It's been there, but there's never been a wholly cosmopolitan platform before to raise awareness of it. It's always been dictated by litterateurs. Now, we've got one. The internet.
Both wolife and tui hit an important note that I've also brought up before: why is it, when meritocracy and 'best writer' are brought up, you never see female or POC writers brought up or be recommended? It's not like they don't exist or don't have impressive bodies of quality work.
Now look, I really dont want this to read as me slamming mucky, because I'm not and I don't want it to seem so, but his point kind of encapsulates a big issue: sorry, but real life is not a meritocracy and prejudice, even accidental, is still a thing, usually caused by myopia and the kind of cultural hegemony discussed above. We are simply not at a point where 'race blind' works because opportunities for writers of non-white backgrounds are still not levelled enough. As somebody in the industry, I know stories of POC writers whose work is not looked at, not even read and judged on merit, and the job is just given to another mediocre white candidate because they 'knew someone' or 'didn't rock the boat with pesky opinions'. If you don't create opportunities, how can you even remotely hope for people to have a shot?
Well said. Lets say for example ypu have a white author who is very good but despite their talent has the same perspective of many other white authors. This is hypothetical btw. And you have a black author who is 80% as talented as the white author but all of their work comes from a completely different and brand new perspective. Some people would say the difference in perspective would make the talent gulf not even matter. And many people inside the Industry would rther do a.little more script editing and tightening up to bring this author up to 110% or more. Also, this "80%" author hasnt been given the same oppurtunities and what looks like 80% may only be that way because s/he has spent more time in the trenches than the successful white author. Now that is purely hypothetical. But I am just putting a talent gulf in my example to show that the difference in ideas, Writing, and perspective is well worth giving someone a chance. And... In reality the black author is Honestly just as talented as the white author but has not had the same oppurtunities. But my point is that people from different backgrounds bring a lot to the table.One of the reasons James Goss is such a brilliant and versatile writer is he does detailed research on those other perspectives when he is going to unfamiliar territory. I am also certain James would be the first to suggest a person of colour and/or a female for a project. Reading something like First Born and being shocked it was written by a bloke is a wonder. And people like Goss are super important because we need both #ownvoices and more diverse characters. Also as far as female writers are concerned there is a unique difference in the way we write. I love so much Doctor Who. I love Jac, Kate, and Uncle Terrance and James in equal measure. It's a real important perspective to bring to the table though. Although I always want to encourage blokes to put lesbian and wstrong female friendship in their works I will always be more confident with a woman writer. There is a lot of nuance to female relationships and f/f romance that takes either experience or detailed Gossian research to capture and if the centerpiece of a story is two women and their relationship I would always pick a woman for the brief. If it is romance, ideally a queer woman but in all honesty I would trust any seasoned female writer to write about any variety of female relationship. I recently listened to Moonflesh and the amount of research John Banks did to portray his native American role is impressive. But James Goss and the above is not the norm and when there is the opportunity to bring in someone who knows from experience and not research why not? By the way as a pagan Moonflesh does a real respectful job on the parts of natice Religion that intersect with my own. The new film Booksmart stars two girls one who is lesbian and the other is played by a lesbian. And as brilliant and exciting a film ias it is and obviously being told by allies and lgbt I am very glad that one of the stars is out. Not just because lgbt actors are important but as a sort of advisor on set. I can be fairly certain that nothing is going to come qcross as dissonant. But the more POC,lgbt, and woman we give chances to the more that we can reach a time where there are a wide variety of big and diverse names. But it always makes me really angry when people only question an influx of black and female writers and don't question when every writer or actor is white. This was on display at Gallifrey Base all last year. It was disgusting. I still am scared to post anything about Bill Potts because of how disgusting and nasty people were to me. Hell I am still scared to mention I like girls because of that. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2019 2:10:25 GMT
Both wolife and tui hit an important note that I've also brought up before: why is it, when meritocracy and 'best writer' are brought up, you never see female or POC writers brought up or be recommended? It's not like they don't exist or don't have impressive bodies of quality work.
Now look, I really dont want this to read as me slamming mucky, because I'm not and I don't want it to seem so, but his point kind of encapsulates a big issue: sorry, but real life is not a meritocracy and prejudice, even accidental, is still a thing, usually caused by myopia and the kind of cultural hegemony discussed above. We are simply not at a point where 'race blind' works because opportunities for writers of non-white backgrounds are still not levelled enough. As somebody in the industry, I know stories of POC writers whose work is not looked at, not even read and judged on merit, and the job is just given to another mediocre white candidate because they 'knew someone' or 'didn't rock the boat with pesky opinions'. If you don't create opportunities, how can you even remotely hope for people to have a shot?
Well said. Lets say for example ypu have a white author who is very good but despite their talent has the same perspective of many other white authors. This is hypothetical btw. And you have a black author who is 80% as talented as the white author but all of their work comes from a completely different and brand new perspective. Some people would say the difference in perspective would make the talent gulf not even matter. And many people inside the Industry would rther do a.little more script editing and tightening up to bring this author up to 110% or more. Also, this "80%" author hasnt been given the same oppurtunities and what looks like 80% may only be that way because s/he has spent more time in the trenches than the successful white author. Now that is purely hypothetical. But I am just putting a talent gulf in my example to show that the difference in ideas, Writing, and perspective is well worth giving someone a chance. And... In reality the black author is Honestly just as talented as the white author but has not had the same oppurtunities. But my point is that people from different backgrounds bring a lot to the table.One of the reasons James Goss is such a brilliant and versatile writer is he does detailed research on those other perspectives when he is going to unfamiliar territory. I am also certain James would be the first to suggest a person of colour and/or a female for a project. Reading something like First Born and being shocked it was written by a bloke is a wonder. And people like Goss are super important because we need both #ownvoices and more diverse characters. Also as far as female writers are concerned there is a unique difference in the way we write. I love so much Doctor Who. I love Jac, Kate, and Uncle Terrance and James in equal measure. It's a real important perspective to bring to the table though. Although I always want to encourage blokes to put lesbian and wstrong female friendship in their works I will always be more confident with a woman writer. There is a lot of nuance to female relationships and f/f romance that takes either experience or detailed Gossian research to capture and if the centerpiece of a story is two women and their relationship I would always pick a woman for the brief. If it is romance, ideally a queer woman but in all honesty I would trust any seasoned female writer to write about any variety of female relationship. I recently listened to Moonflesh and the amount of research John Banks did to portray his native American role is impressive. But James Goss and the above is not the norm and when there is the opportunity to bring in someone who knows from experience and not research why not? By the way as a pagan Moonflesh does a real respectful job on the parts of natice Religion that intersect with my own. The new film Booksmart stars two girls one who is lesbian and the other is played by a lesbian. And as brilliant and exciting a film ias it is and obviously being told by allies and lgbt I am very glad that one of the stars is out. Not just because lgbt actors are important but as a sort of advisor on set. I can be fairly certain that nothing is going to come qcross as dissonant. But the more POC,lgbt, and woman we give chances to the more that we can reach a time where there are a wide variety of big and diverse names. But it always makes me really angry when people only question an influx of black and female writers and don't question when every writer or actor is white. This was on display at Gallifrey Base all last year. It was disgusting. I still am scared to post anything about Bill Potts because of how disgusting and nasty people were to me. Hell I am still scared to mention I like girls because of that. Well, I'm glad you feel comfortable discussing it here. It's an important set of perspectives and we don't get an insight into it as much as we'd like to/should. |
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Post by anothermanicmondas on Apr 21, 2019 10:37:59 GMT
I would say the answer(s) to Mucky Pup's not entirely serious question is/are
1) Hex, C'rizz, Thomas Brewster, Oliver Harper, Will Arrowsmith, and maybe the Eleven?
2) except for Unbound:Exile all Big Finish Doctor stories have a male Doctor - so a female companion is natural for gender balance
having a male Doctor and a female companion is more diverse than having a male Doctor and a male companion
Note that Iris Wildthyme and Charlotte Pollard have male companions
also note that many male companions in the TV series (the ones before Adric) were mainly there for action scenes, especially if there were concerns that the actor playing the Doctor was not capable - this is not really a concern in audio
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Post by anothermanicmondas on Apr 21, 2019 10:49:16 GMT
going back to the topic I believe there is a need to recognise the difference between quality and personal taste
different things appeal to different people
I don't know if it's accurate or reliable but I read that a survey of women's favourite authors was dominated by female authors with the most popular 'male' author beind J K Rowling using a masculine pen-name.
When I heard the Dark Shadows story "Dress me in dark dreams", I wan't that wild about it and felt it was more likely to appeal to a female audience. if it does, that's fine - not every story needs to be targetted to my own preferences.
I believe there should be a diverse range of writers creating a diverse range of stories for a diverse audience.
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Post by fantasticalice on May 5, 2019 15:14:17 GMT
Shout out to Paternoster as being the only scifi show starring a Lesbian couple and their "asexual" best mate.
At the very least Strax is non sexual. But although I need to give Respekt to Legends of Tomorrow Paternoster is starting with a Lesbian interracial and inter class relationship. Vastra is trqditionl rp and although I canna Identity Jenny's region she is definitely not a"posho" as Tegan would say.
Also Legends of Tomorrow with a bisexual
badass in a Lesbian relationship is as close as tv gets right now.
And although I am very very gay I am really Happy that LoT has done not just solid bi representation but also done their more compelling work on the gay side of the narrative.
I also think BF has reaached the point where they can tell any story with queer characters.
Happy, not happy, complicated and even ending in death.
I thoroughly recommend the Torchwood Aliens Among Us and God Among Us as ther is a Unique discussion on grief in one of the boxes that I found compelling and Beautiful.
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Post by fantasticalice on Jul 5, 2019 3:18:58 GMT
I may write a separate thread on this but recently I read a vicious takedown of BF and their diversity which was shortsighted, needlessly angry, and criticised them for many things that someone in the UK would realise were ridiculous.
BF has a huge infrastructure and has been peppered with female writers from the beginning. Also, the infrastructure for Britain has clearly been much worse for female writers than the UK. But criticising BF for a lack of female writers when from the beginning they have been ahead of Doctor Who on Telly seems like less a legitimate criticism and an excuse to stop covering their output.
Steven Moffat famously realised between series 5 and 7 that he had to work actively to get diversity in front of and BEHIND the screen. He made an effort to be 100% colour blind and realised that was not good enough and didn't seem to change anything.
Meanwhile, BF has had Jac Rayner as one of their most prolific writers and has brought more and more female writers in starting roughly 3 years ago. Because that is often the lead time. When there are rumblings of a writer or an actor being a piece of garbage weeks before the thing the recorded a year to 2 years ago comes out to criticise BF for it is ridiculous.
They have worked with people who may be as bad as GR. To assume that a busy company is trawling twitter to find out if some people are bad human beings and causing hurt to others is a little ridiculous. Also, Bf can be bold and strong behind the scenes but they do have a delicate balance. You'll notice that around the time of the GR debacle Novel adaptations were on constant sale for awhile and although the box sets are still available they no longer advertise his contributions as "Doctor Who by Gareth Roberts"
Bf is in a constant game of scheduling, negotiation, and some of these problematic people that they have worked with in the past may have been hard to get in the first place and very easy not to worry about in future.
And... they also have to get approval from Cardiff and often series creators for storylines and characters. It has to be a nightmare. Claiming False Coronets straightwashes CLara when every review has stated it is kept ambiguous and may have come from the higher ups is needlessly mean and a little arrogant.
And the idea that there are new American Audio plays coming out means that BF as a independent company has access to a huge writing pool is ridiculous. We don't know how BF is viewed within the industry itself. I would not be surprised that many would consider it more lucrative to work for the BBC directly or in Telly and films. And BF works very hard at promoting UK and surrounding crew and for good reason. I don't know how often the writers come into the studios but I have gathered that it is a very important part of the process. I admire BF for the immense moving of mountains they do with Dark Shadows. To indicate that a bunch of American radioplays are happening and that means BF, a UK based company has huge access to unlimited writers for their production company is... well Mean.
BF has reached the point where they have so many lgbt characters that they can fill any story need. Also I am unbsure if Cardiff has ever said anything about Clara or other charcaters orientations but River famously kissed both Peter Davison's charcater and the character of Brooke for a character who has been given thankfully more freedom both on telly and in audio.
Organic characters are important. And to criticise BF for diversity when they have always been way more diverse than the parent program is silly. They have worked diligently at getting more female writers and female crew. Which it's really stupid to criticise BF for not having enough female writers when they are ahead of so many mediums with crew.
Lisa Bowerman probably has a longer CV as director than as Bernice Summerfield. Louise Jameson and Helen Goldwyn are also integral parts of the BF infrastructure. Jac Rayner I believe is BF's most prolific writer and people Like Emma Reeves and Una McCormack create frequent main range and ancillary stories. I actually can't think of any other production infrastructure that has this many woman working for it.
And they keep bringing in new talent and are working hard at getting ethnic diversity too including some really huge names. Rahke Thakrar and Anjli Mohindra are huge huge names to get in. Yes, they may have had an easier time getting Anjli back then but she is still part of the weft and weave of BF. And if you look at diversity in 'front' of the mike BF I am certain has way way more female Led series than male led series. And considering almost every Doctor has a female companion the Doctor Who series are very female centric as well.
To criticise BF for a perceived paucity of female writers is laughable and malicious. And I know I am being upset over what must be a small contingent of naysayers but this type of criticism is not even remotely helpful. I am more than happy to say "Big Finish, the other month every main range release(Short Trips, Monthly range, and another) was written by a woman. More of this Please! THis is wonderful!" That is encouraging. But to paint BF as a boys club is easily the craziest thing I have heard of. It also reeks of a fundamental misunderstanding of what the writing needs of BF are. Every writer I have mentioned has a deep understanding of Doctor Who and could likely write for any range(and most of them have) But when Shepherding new writers to Doctor Who you aren't just going to give them a brief for Early years because their stageplays are utterly impressive. But you might.
It's also puzzling because what allows BF to be so diverse and shepherd new writers or writers that haven't been given the opportunities to write more because they are women is because they have such a wide variety of offerings. ATA Girl was a dream by Louise Jameson and was a spotlight for Women in front of and behind the microphone. So was 8th of March. Also Let's put it this way: If you genderflipped every actor and crew member at BF it would be horrifying. It would show some interesting variations certainly but it would feel almost suffocatingly male oriented. Because at BF the Women are incredibly important. Even with making every Doctor Female the male cast and crew would be so ubiquitous it would feel... uncomfortable. Likewise if you did that with a lot of Doctor Who on Tv(Even series 11 perhaps) it would seem like a female utopia. If you take some of the older Doctor Who especially. That's not to say that Telly DWho isn't wonderful and has gotten much much better with woman and BME but to criticise BF so viciously and give Tv Who not just as much vitriol is... blind.
I spend a lot of money on BF. Because I feel they deserve it. And nitpicking at what might be one of the most diverse production companies in Britain is ridiculous. And.,... BF isn't saying they are perfect. And they are working actively to diversify the crew aspect. I am super excited about the next Benny release as it is specifically a project to bring FOUR brand new writers into the world of Doctor Who. So we will get fresh ideas, new thoughts, and experienced writers helping them with editing and other writerly stuff that a Jac Rayner or a Una McCormack has but someone who hasn't written professionally for 20+ years is still learning.
I can't think of anyplace that has done something similar besides Obverse Books and Lethbridge-Stewart. A lot of companies could learn from this.
It just frustrates me. When I still am presented with a flood of media that I don't feel represents me as a woman or represents me as someone who doesn't see herself as white that a company who works against that is given so much crap.
Jenny and Lady Christina and even UNIT get constant crap and criticism for not being that good. One, UNIT 7-8 was really really damn good. So was Jenny. Lady Christina was a casting coup. Also, I can't help but notice the spinoffs that get crapped on the most all have women as the stars. In a world where people are constantly using 'create new characters" as a feint for racism over a character being BME or changed to female I swear the same people are stupid critical when people do.
I really really enjoy Jenny and River Song and UNIT. My favourite things about them is the women are clearly in the spotlight in every single one. I also really loved Missy. Going back to stupid critiques apparently Missy had a male writing staff? And... so? Out of all of the characters that you could say need a female hand The Master is not one of them. I believe Moffat has even stated that he envisoned Missy as The Master seeing it as another disguise. Basically Missy is not so much as a woman as she is a centuries old Machiavellian male psychopath who is now a woman. I personally don't think it is an oversight and it shows a willful ignorance of the whole.
Which is that BF is working hard to not only make their cast and crew more diverse but with moves like the new Benny series is actively changing the industry. One of the biggest problems with institutionalised racism or sexism is that institution prevents there being this huge swathe of untapped talent. Many female and BME writers who could have been blockbuster scriptwriters by 2019 are not. They may be self publishing books, writing plays, or worse gotten tired of the struggle that being female or bme put upon them and abandoned writing all together.
If you actually needed a writer with 40 years experience writing science fiction for telly for example.... Well you would be hard pressed to find multiple women that fit that brief. Finding someone who was BME I would be surprised if you could find more than 1.
But maybe that WAS important to you at one point. And 40 years is pretty wide. 20 years is a good sign of a seasoned writer. And then there are lots more. But even if you want to find a list of the top 100 best and most talented writers that have been writing since say 1998... it will be woefully understaffed by BME and women. But if you want 5 amazing talented writers that are bme or Women that have been writing scifi telly since 1998...you might be able to find them, but that doesn't mean they are available. Because the pool is not that big even just 20 years ago. And, now that a lot of companies are either scrambling to diversify or realised they need to do better in earnest it is even smaller.
It is smaller because those writers who started in 1998 got there by fighting and never giving up. None of them were given the opportunities they deserved and they likely got passed over for a lot of jobs for yes, white males. The one field that is virtually unlimited is New writers. People who have been writing for 1-3 years and haven't been discouraged yet. People who need these opportunities so in another 20 years it will be possible to get anyone you want for a writing gig. But that time is not yet but its getting better.
And Bf has not only worked with bringing playwrights into their orbit but is giving 4 newish writers a gigantic opportunity that in 20 years will make them part of this hypothetical 20 year pool.
Which I am not really aware of any other company making such a huge contribution to quite frankly the future of science fiction writing. These women could be anyone from prolific authors, to the next Jac Rayner, to showrunners of BBC tv and even be in the running to showrun Doctor Who someday.
I know this is long and detailed but for a company that has so much female cast and crew they are likely more diverse than any other similar sized production company to be maliciously trashed for it is ridiculous.
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Post by fantasticalice on Jul 25, 2019 7:38:15 GMT
((((((16 hours ago levi3o4 said:
Honestly, my first impulse is to respond to this "Do they?" line of questioning... Really negatively.
Transphobia is a real thing, and anti-semitism is a real thing. They affect real people. I don't know if you're on the receiving end of either, but for those of us who are, they're a big deal.
Working with an actor is, to a certain extent, an endorsement of them as a person. There's a reason bts material tends to always include a section talking about how wonderful each individual actor is.
And as for whether this is the appropriate spot to discuss that... Well, it's the thread for the affected product range, isn't it? A separate thread later might be nice, but at the moment, this seems pretty appropriate.
This sort of "but should we really be talking about this? And here?" invalidates the urgency of the concern. If you don't see that urgency... Maybe look at it from someone else's point of view.
)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Fantastic Alice said:
I am Jewish, I was born intersexed and also identify as genderqueer genderfluid. But because I am intersex I have and will get bullied, beaten, teased, insulted, abused, and sexually assaulted for my appearance regardless of whether I attempt male or female. And as an intersex person I am in many ways both. In the last year after nearly a decade of peace I have started facing harassment, nastiness and dirty looks and long stares.
Saying trans and intersex people are disgusting freaks and child abusers or that we are trying to take away women's rights or that all transwomen are just men who want to sneak into bathrooms to attack women(which doesnt happen.) makes many many people including both former and future cast and crew members of Big Finish.
As well as the writers of recent Doctor Who stories and little girls who are fans of the singer pink and a significant portion of the lesbian community.
I know of clubs that have had multiuse unisex bathrooms for 20 years with no problems. If a man wants to attack a woman he will just walk in and do it.
And quite frankjly making bathroom laws will force bearded muscular transmen to use the ladies. People Like Buck Angle and Chas Bono will be forced to use the ladies. And when this third rate msiguided hate mongering bathroom law is forcing men who look like me ot use the ladies because of their birth ceritifcate..... then Bearded masculine men will find it even easier to walk into a ladies room.
Also until about ten years ago there was no such thing as bathroom laws.
Ok I am done ranting but I am really tired of people writing off attitudes that are harming and doing damage to not just trans people, but intersexed people and little kids who hateful adults decide dont look feminine enough to us the bathroom because they cut their hair like a pop singer.
8 years ago I had a long talk with a lesbian friend who had avoided public restrooms for 2 years because she was always harassed.
And this hatemongering is that.
As a Jew I may not be as into the conversation on the antisemitism denial but you bet that that is harmful. It also probably wouldn't factor as much if not for the fact this is about someone who is not only promoting hateful attitudes that affect every transperson AND also intersex people AND little girls and boys and adults who are deemed not feminine or masculine enough to be treated like the gender they are.
The question everyone needs to ask themselves is would you call it "Just an opinion" if the 'opinions' were antigay or racist? Because these 'opinions' do just as much harm.
(reposted from another thread as this is a good one to discuss more I feel)
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Post by sherlock on Jul 25, 2019 16:06:33 GMT
This seems the most appropriate thread for this
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Post by Ian McArdell on Jul 26, 2019 8:57:11 GMT
BF have issued a statement on this issue today... not sure it's going to do to calm the twitters though (I'm not sure if anything could atm). |
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