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Post by nucleusofswarm on Apr 27, 2019 0:50:25 GMT
It's been interesting to see how a story that got royally raked over the coals for its 'visual effects' has enjoyed something of a reapraisal for Hulke's writing and the ambition of the piece. I can't deny this one's grown on me a lot over time.
How does everyone else feel about this one?
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Apr 27, 2019 7:44:47 GMT
It is one of those rare stories that could only be told when it was, no other Doctor could have that story and make it work in the way it does. Any Doctor could visit Fang Rock, ant Doctor could pally about with Jago and Litefoot, but this story needs it to be the third Doctor and UNIT. The only thing missing is someone named “Masterson” who, while chuckling, tells the Doctor he’s been terribly naïve. It’s all corrupt beaucracy, technology turned to evil ends, environmentalism and mankind being nasty to mankind.
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Post by tuigirl on Apr 27, 2019 8:18:38 GMT
I enjoyed watching it. Was it the greatest story ever told? Not even close. But it had lots of humour, drama, interesting characters and held my attention. Sarah was great. I also understood how Mike could turn traitor. And I loved Benton in this, especially how he offers the Doctor an escape route and shows how much trusts him when he lets the Doctor knock him out. As for the very special effects... one of my first Classic Who serials I ever watched was "Ark in Space". I think after seeing people freaking out over bubble-wrap, nothing could shock me anymore. And I learned one important thing- Doctor Who is not about awesome vistas and how great everything looks, but about the characters and the story which hold it together. When that is working, I don't mind people getting chased by plastic dinosaurs or bubble-wrap.
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Post by newt5996 on Apr 27, 2019 17:26:38 GMT
This one is let down by some bad effects, but unlike say Underworld (which I'm at in my marathon and hating), the plot is solid, the message is nuanced and a great example of how to do a blatant political message *cough* Series 9 *cough*. The twist with Mike Yates is great, Peter Miles and Martin Jarvis are both great in this story and even the black and white copy of Part One is atmospheric you don't really notice it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2019 19:49:18 GMT
KKLAK!
Lets face it - we have come a long way since this story was left til last in the VHS range (bar the B/W odds and sods box sets). I remember watching it back then in 2003, with trepidation for the 'special effects', which when over and done with, were actually kept to a minimum, or as best as they could, at least.
For me though this story was always cemented in the memory from reading the Target novelisation, and the production generally holds up well to Hulke's condensed prose version - which to me still seems the definitive article, 35 years on from first reading!
Watching now on DVD, I feel that I can almost ignore the puppetry and enjoy, as others here clearly do, one of Benton's finest moments and the intelligent portrayal of Yates conflicted loyalties. Malcolm Hulke manages to portray 'relative' villains here, who are not evil, or nasty, or even cruel, but merely ruthless in enacting well intentioned, if misguided goals.
What I appreciate more now with time, is how the core plot line, fantastical as it is, serves to embed in young minds, a serious message, which does not preach nor patronise. No talky moralising, but a message embedded, which can inspire over time, further investigation or interest, in the minds of its young audience, precisely because it is subtle and does not seek to lecture.
If they remade it now, wouldn't it be nice if they were able to get Emma Thompson on board (the fake spaceship) ? ....
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Post by number13 on Apr 27, 2019 21:59:41 GMT
For me this is the most underrated of all Pertwee-era adventures and I’ve loved it ever since 1974 when my Doctor took on another childhood favourite – the dinosaurs! Combined with a great UNIT story and a clever ‘whodunit’, plus layers of political satire for older viewers to appreciate, this is yet another classic by Malcolm Hulke. And as an excited viewer in 1974, it never occurred to me that anything here was less than perfect. So please, when you next watch it, do so with the imagination as I did back then, enjoy a great story and forgive the foam rubber ‘king’ of the dinosaurs… The T-rex is a pity, because the other dinosaur puppetry, CSO ‘blue screen’ work and model effects are better than their reputation would suggest – and it’s unfair to compare with modern CGI or the big-budget dinosaur puppetry from contemporary ‘70s films. We had a lot of 'Journey to the Valley of the Lost Centre Beneath the World' sort of movies back then, all great fun and mostly with dinosaurs! Whether ignoring or enjoying the effects, this is a cracking character drama with the Doctor at his most flamboyant with a new car which really was pure Pertwee, of his own design, and Sarah getting into trouble as Companions do but only because she is investigating too close to the truth for some peoples' liking. And it is a great UNIT story, probably the best ever story about classic UNIT, with the regulars on top form as the latest crisis shows the whole UNIT ‘family’ under some strain. Nicholas Courtney is excellent as always, with the Brigadier caught between loyalty to the Doctor and obedience to his commanding officer, General Finch. The quiet humour and decency he always brought to the role are perfectly shown here, and Richard Franklin and John Levene have great scenes as Captain Yates (back from sick leave after his traumatic time in ‘The Green Death’) and the ever-reliable Sergeant Benton.
Mike Yates has one of the best story arcs in classic Who and leaves under a cloud but with sympathy - they didn't talk about PTSD back then, but after being brainwashed by BOSS and having the Metebelis crystal in his mind, Mike was clearly suffering severe after-effects and was left open to conversion to a new Cause. Ex-communist Malcolm Hulke wrote a terrific plot about fanatics who begin with a noble idea, but who are so self-righteous in their quest for “The Golden Age” that they soon believe “the end justifies the means” - their excuse for atrocities on a colossal scale, as from the French Revolution to the Bolsheviks and Mao’s followers. Anyone who expresses free will (like the Doctor and Sarah) must either be “disposed of” or “re-educated” until they are ‘fit’ to belong to “The People” (the self-chosen people, of course).
In the novel, Malcolm Hulke makes it very clear that Mike believed he and the other conspirators would be travelling TO their 'Golden Age', not erasing the past and present as was actually planned - only Grover, Whitaker, Finch and Butler knew that monstrous secret. (And btw, what a great guest cast Paddy Russell assembled.) He also underlines what we see at the climax - the Doctor is able to 'swim' against the flow of Time because he is a Time Lord. I think this is one of the earliest hints that Time Lords are physically attuned to Time in some way unique to them, as well as technologically.
Sadly, this was the last time Malcolm Hulke would write for televised ‘Doctor Who’. But with all the other top writers, actors and production teams, he helped ensure that for countless fans (definitely including me), those classic seasons and Doctors of the ‘70s truly were “The Golden Age”.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2019 8:15:05 GMT
Invasion of the Dinosaurs is a curious beast (*wry smile*) as it's aged remarkably well for a story about mid-70s political issues and ideological clashes. With its Fallout-style shelters, ecological concerns and mention of "Cold War days" in the past tense, this could've been written for the 90s. In several crucial ways, it's the ultimate Doctor Who story -- a tale of how idealism, under terrible circumstances, can walk hand-in-hand with extremism. The desire to overturn the rot of modern civilisation and return to a period in history where things were calmer. People treated one another with respect. There was community, clean air and a sense of fellowship among the human race. The world was kinder then. Except... Such a place never really existed.
The idealised Golden Age is a concept as old as... well, nostalgia itself and Invasion harnesses that to devastating effect by having UNIT turn inward. It's a family dispute with Lethbridge-Stewart's company on one end and Finch on the other. Malcolm Hulke was very fond of his 1960s Bondmania tropes and this story explores one central to those spy stories -- betrayal. Mike's betrayal for an otherwise noble cause and it stings so much because it comes from so close to home. It's not just another faceless extra, it's Mike Yates. A man who came, through trauma, to believe that you have to burn the village to save it. To save the world, it became necessary to destroy it. A fingersnap and all those troubles melt away. Clean slate. But, as we discover over the course of the story, the personnel of Golden Age have brought all their grime with them.
And I think that's the real tragedy of the story. It's all done to reach a world which never existed in the first place. There is no guarantee that these chosen few will do any better with this new Old World than their fellows and those before them. It's genocide, chronocide, but to no achievable end. There's one exchange that always sticks with me above all others. It's the reason why Invasion of the Dinosaurs is my favourite from Season 11:
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Post by glutamodo on Apr 28, 2019 17:26:52 GMT
Has the Reality Bomb Podcast ever covered this one in their section "Gallery of the Under-Rated"?? I think I've heard all of those but don't seem to recall if anyone has chosen this title.
This title Deserves it.
Why? Well, I think everyone else covered that above. Really nice story, only let down by some really hilariously bad model shots.
Several years before I found DW, I was a fan of the mid 70s USA children's sci-fantasy show, Land of the Lost. Much of their dinosaur effects were done in filmed stop motion animation and still look nice today. Too bad they sprinkled in videotaped hand puppets now and then.
So, for me, I had a standard set, long before I watched DW. And when the Pertwee stories hit PBS in my area, Invasion of the Dinos was still left out of the package, I never saw it back then. I only knew of it from the Programme Guide. It was only years later that I saw it. And when I did, well, the story I liked. The dinos… well... I found hilarious.
Okay, I've made the joke elsewhere about watching this whole serial with a bottle of 80-proof at hand, and every time a naff dino shows, up you take a shot, and see how you're feeling by the end.
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Post by barnabaslives on Apr 28, 2019 19:01:27 GMT
Several years before I found DW, I was a fan of the mid 70s USA children's sci-fantasy show, Land of the Lost. Much of their dinosaur effects were done in filmed stop motion animation and still look nice today. Too bad they sprinkled in videotaped hand puppets now and then. So, for me, I had a standard set, long before I watched DW. And when the Pertwee stories hit PBS in my area, Invasion of the Dinos was still left out of the package, I never saw it back then. I only knew of it from the Programme Guide. It was only years later that I saw it. And when I did, well, the story I liked. The dinos… well... I found hilarious. This sounds like my story except I did get to see Invasion of the Dinosaurs on PBS back in the day. Being that the dinosaurs were the title attraction, I did sort of expect more from the special effects and was a bit disappointed for it, and I think the dinos managed to distract greatly from a lot of the good qualities of this story that others have mentioned here. I did enjoy this much more when I saw it again several years ago, this time I managed to really appreciate, for example, what was going on with Benton and Yates. I'm still not fond of the direction that Yates went in but I understand well enough that there's an important point to that. One thing I guess I always have appreciated though is that this story seemed to be trying valiantly to do something different, for that it still seems to stand out as refreshingly distinctive.
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Post by number13 on Apr 29, 2019 0:39:52 GMT
Several years before I found DW, I was a fan of the mid 70s USA children's sci-fantasy show, Land of the Lost. Much of their dinosaur effects were done in filmed stop motion animation and still look nice today. Too bad they sprinkled in videotaped hand puppets now and then. So, for me, I had a standard set, long before I watched DW. And when the Pertwee stories hit PBS in my area, Invasion of the Dinos was still left out of the package, I never saw it back then. I only knew of it from the Programme Guide. It was only years later that I saw it. And when I did, well, the story I liked. The dinos… well... I found hilarious. This sounds like my story except I did get to see Invasion of the Dinosaurs on PBS back in the day. Being that the dinosaurs were the title attraction, I did sort of expect more from the special effects and was a bit disappointed for it, and I think the dinos managed to distract greatly from a lot of the good qualities of this story that others have mentioned here. I did enjoy this much more when I saw it again several years ago, this time I managed to really appreciate, for example, what was going on with Benton and Yates. I'm still not fond of the direction that Yates went in but I understand well enough that there's an important point to that. One thing I guess I always have appreciated though is that this story seemed to be trying valiantly to do something different, for that it still seems to stand out as refreshingly distinctive. In my dreams, when S11 comes out on blu-ray all the dinosaurs will be magnificent in CGI! Sadly, there are rather a lot of dino shots so I don't know if the budget would run to it, but in that season, if they're going to do an effects upgrade on any story, that's the one.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2019 1:21:37 GMT
I never had an issue with the dinosaurs. Then again, as a kid I was raised on Kaijus with a budget of 50 quid for a Rodan outfit and the Amicus films like At The Earth's Core* and The Land/People That Time Forgot and some of those have effects that make Invasion look like a Hollywood blockbuster. I never even have problems with things like Talon's rat - they're means to an end, just there for some quick threat in service of the story.
I like the scale of the story, it doesn't feel like the normal runaround in the home counties that will all be OK with some cheese n wine, it really does it's best to convince of the creatures attacking the city. The scenes with The Doctor and Sarah being detained feel like something from Day Of The Triffids and are played nice and serious. Mike's story...well, I'm not sure it's a character arc but at least they were willing to do something with him that subverts what we expect of a companion which is more than can be said for a lot of classic era characters.
I don't think it's bad at alll, and never have done. It's one of the stories of the season I enjoy most frankly. It's too long but, hey, so is a lot of this era. Give me this over the massively redundant return to Peladon which just remakes the earlier trip there anyday.
* At The Earth's Core features Peter Cushing giving a performance that is almost exactly his Doctor Who one, so recommended for fans of those
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Post by Timelord007 on Apr 29, 2019 7:04:34 GMT
Yeah the dinosaur effects are terrible but on the whole the story's engaging & contains plenty of dramatic moments we even get a bit of character drama with Mike Yates arc.
Shame we didn't get a CGO special edition on DVD.
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
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Post by lidar2 on Apr 29, 2019 8:17:29 GMT
KKLAK! Lets face it - we have come a long way since this story was left til last in the VHS range (bar the B/W odds and sods box sets). I remember watching it back then in 2003, with trepidation for the 'special effects', which when over and done with, were actually kept to a minimum, or as best as they could, at least. For me though this story was always cemented in the memory from reading the Target novelisation, and the production generally holds up well to Hulke's condensed prose version - which to me still seems the definitive article, 35 years on from first reading! Watching now on DVD, I feel that I can almost ignore the puppetry and enjoy, as others here clearly do, one of Benton's finest moments and the intelligent portrayal of Yates conflicted loyalties. Malcolm Hulke manages to portray 'relative' villains here, who are not evil, or nasty, or even cruel, but merely ruthless in enacting well intentioned, if misguided goals. What I appreciate more now with time, is how the core plot line, fantastical as it is, serves to embed in young minds, a serious message, which does not preach nor patronise. No talky moralising, but a message embedded, which can inspire over time, further investigation or interest, in the minds of its young audience, precisely because it is subtle and does not seek to lecture. If they remade it now, wouldn't it be nice if they were able to get Emma Thompson on board (the fake spaceship) ? .... Target novelisation was my way into this story. Unfortunately my local library stocked the later edition without the KKLAK on the cover, but that aside it is an excellent book and well deserved its recent reprint. I think the book is probably better than the TV version because of the dodgy effects.
Despite the effects however, it remains a good watchable story. The issues of nostalgia for past golden ages and how far the ends justify the means in pursuit of a genuinely noble cause raised are still relevant today and Mike Yates' betrayal must have been a terrible shock to viewers, as this was a family show and he was an established character, then in his 4rth year as a recurring character.
Interestingly enough, in the 1970s environmentalism was seen as more of a right wing issue rather than a left wing issue. The left was dominated by the trade union movement and the industrial working class so they were largely pro-industry and concerns about pollution and the environment were seen as an issue of the leisured/chattering classes. Any attack on industry was, at the same time, an attack on the industrial working class. [Barry Letts who wrote the other great environmental story of the Pertwee era, The Green Death was a Liberal supporter, not a Labour supporter]. When Tony Crosland was appointed Environment Secretary in Harold Wilson's 1974 government he wasn't keen on the job for that very reason. Things have obviously changed since then.
If we view environmentalism through modern eyes, as more of a left wing issue, then the villains of this story are somewhat contradictory. On the one hand they are backward looking and nostalgic, believing the past was a golden age, which is an outlook more usually associated with the right. Their leaders include generals and top civil servants, again character types stereotypically associated as being establishment figures on the centre-right politically. On the other hand their raison d'etre is commitment to the progressive left wing cause of environmentalism. It is only if we see environmentalism through contemporary eyes as more of a right wing cause that the villains make more sense.
The other point about this I would make, which I have never seen mentioned elsewhere, is that in the novel Professor Whitaker comes across (to me at least) as homosexual. This bypassed me completely when I was a child, but when I listened to the audio a couple of years ago I noticed that on more than one occasion in scenes written from his POV there was a description of the attractiveness of other male characters. Elsewhere he is described as having long slender fingers, which in the context of a 1970s children's book, could be interpreted as suggesting he was effeminate/homosexual. As I say, I have never come across anyone else noticing this before, I wonder if anyone else here had thought the same?
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Post by Tim Bradley on Apr 29, 2019 10:10:18 GMT
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Post by number13 on Apr 29, 2019 11:56:42 GMT
Target novelisation was my way into this story. Unfortunately my local library stocked the later edition without the KKLAK on the cover, but that aside it is an excellent book and well deserved its recent reprint. I think the book is probably better than the TV version because of the dodgy effects. All of Malcolm Hulke's novelisations are first-class imo he was the outstanding writer of the Pertwee years. (For anyone who hasn't read/heard it, I highly recommend the audiobook of the novel, performed brilliantly by Martin Jarvis.)
I think Hulke is very even-handed in his politics here, he seems to be saying don't trust all the Establishment of 'the right' but don't trust all the campaigners of 'the left' either - the 'spaceship' people with their 'Reminder Room' and talk of 'The People' (or not) are clearly a comment on the far-left of those days, behind the Iron Curtain, Cuba, the Cultural Revolution etc.. And then he states very clearly at the end in rejection of all 'revolution': don't try to invent a 'perfect world', but do something positive to help make the best of the world we have.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2019 13:29:12 GMT
Has the Reality Bomb Podcast ever covered this one in their section "Gallery of the Under-Rated"?? I think I've heard all of those but don't seem to recall if anyone has chosen this title. This title Deserves it. Why? Well, I think everyone else covered that above. Really nice story, only let down by some really hilariously bad model shots. Several years before I found DW, I was a fan of the mid 70s USA children's sci-fantasy show, Land of the Lost. Much of their dinosaur effects were done in filmed stop motion animation and still look nice today. Too bad they sprinkled in videotaped hand puppets now and then. So, for me, I had a standard set, long before I watched DW. And when the Pertwee stories hit PBS in my area, Invasion of the Dinos was still left out of the package, I never saw it back then. I only knew of it from the Programme Guide. It was only years later that I saw it. And when I did, well, the story I liked. The dinos… well... I found hilarious. Okay, I've made the joke elsewhere about watching this whole serial with a bottle of 80-proof at hand, and every time a naff dino shows, up you take a shot, and see how you're feeling by the end. Fun fact: When the story was eventually included for overseas syndication in the early 80s, the first episode was often discarded. Maybe as only monochrome prints existed or possibly because "Invasion" had been mistakenly erased from the BBC archives. The result was that it was re-edited into a five-part serial. A little trim here, a kklak there and we join the Doctor and Sarah Jane in media res at the back of the jeep.
I think Hulke's particular style, using his cliffhangers as hitching posts, helps it to survive the strain. We miss out on a fantastic atmospheric opening. Full of scale and grandeur. A sedate London, sleeping prey to opportunists, thugs and predators, but the story endures the deprivation surprisingly well.
Edit: Actually, a thought just occurred in regard to the first episode. Isn't it a perfect window into what Project: Golden Age is all about? What they aim to achieve and why it will fail?
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Post by pazzer on Apr 29, 2019 22:15:01 GMT
I really enjoy the third doctor unit stories and this one is no exception. Sure the special effects could possibly be better but the rest of the story is great. I love the opening and the mystery of whats going on. Captain Yates gets a character arc which I really like as so often the reset button is hit and consequences of events aren't dealt with. Plus it adds to the drama having Mike turn out to be on the villains side and there's a great scene with Benton showing how much he trusts the Doctor.
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