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Post by sherlock on May 10, 2019 14:00:52 GMT
So what happens when a politics student takes a break from revision, has a passing wonder about how politics on Gallifrey actually works, takes a deep dive into the TARDIS Wiki and tries to piece it all together... I figured I might as well share the end result.
This is mainly derived from TV and audio. There are a few elements of my own supposition mixed in as well.
Government of Gallifrey:
Presidency: Lord President -Head of state -Empowered to appoint all positions in the Inner Council -Empowered to act as the primary representative of Gallifrey to other civilisations -May propose laws and motions for consideration by the High Council -Cannot be placed on trial but may be forced to appear before an inquiry -Incumbent President will nominate a successor, any ranking Time Lord may challenge and force the succession to an election by all citizens of Gallifrey, in the event of no challenger the President’s nominee succeeds -Incumbent may be impeached by the High Council by vote of no confidence or face right of challenge to an electoral contest by an individual member of the High Council -Individual Time Lords may only hold the Office of President for a certain number of terms per incarnation -In the event of the incapacitation or removal of the sitting President, the Vice President assumes the role; if the position of Vice President is vacant the Chancellor will appoint an Acting President with ratification from the High Council Inner Council -Executive body of government -Members appointed by the President and positions may be left vacant at the President’s discretion -Members include Vice President, High Chancellor, Castellan and Coordinator of the Celestial Intervention Agency -In emergency session the Inner Council may overrule the President if it’s members unanimously agree
High Council: -Legislative body of government consisting of Councillors (elected representatives of the Chapters) and Lord Cardinals (Councillors appointed by the Council to act as senior members) -Other senior offices that Councillors may be appointed to by the Council include Gold Usher, Surgeon General and Inquisitor Prime -Empowered to vote on laws and motions -Empowered to issue Warrants of Termination for individual Time Lords -In the event of the absence or incapacitation of the sitting President, the High Council may ratify appointments to the Inner Council
Judiciary: -Overseen by the Inquisitor Prime -Inquisitors are empowered to act as judges over legal proceedings against individual Time Lords and oversee inquiries
Celestial Intervention Agency: -Agents charged with maintaining safety and security of Gallifrey and the wider cosmos -Activities overseen by the Coordinator -Agency empowered to hold secret courts to try Time Lords and other species for crimes against the Laws of Time and punish them accordingly
Chancellery Guard: -Security forces of Gallifrey charged with maintaining domestic security and investigation of criminal acts -Commanded by the Castellan
Chapters: -All Time Lords are members of a Chapter -Each Chapter elects representatives to the High Council -Constitutional amendments are ratified by a vote of all members of the Chapters
Constitution: Article 7: Prohibition of any form of genocide Article 17: Guarantee of Liberty; Candidates standing for the presidency cannot be debarred or in any other way prevented from presenting their claim
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Post by glutamodo on May 10, 2019 14:26:13 GMT
You forgot: Whenever some dude named Rassilon shows up, disregard all of the above.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on May 10, 2019 18:53:38 GMT
Interesting, though for me it's missing the most vital part of a nation, whether a country or a world (and possibly off Gallifrey colonies back in the day), and that's the commonry. Who are the people? What do they do? You've described well what can be gleaned from TV and audio, but it still smacks of originating from writers who may have transposed the hierarchy of a university, rather than studying any actual government of any real place. The original sources that is, rather than your ponderings on them
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Post by sherlock on May 10, 2019 19:57:29 GMT
Interesting, though for me it's missing the most vital part of a nation, whether a country or a world (and possibly off Gallifrey colonies back in the day), and that's the commonry. Who are the people? What do they do? You've described well what can be gleaned from TV and audio, but it still smacks of originating from writers who may have transposed the hierarchy of a university, rather than studying any actual government of any real place. The original sources that is, rather than your ponderings on them It is interesting how little role non-Time Lord Gallifreyans have in their government. Literally all I could find is that they get to elect the President, and most of the time not even that due to the bizarre practice of the President getting to name a successor. Gallifrey is not much of a democratic system. It would be interesting to have the average joes of Gallifrey to be explored a bit. We do only ever get to see the Lords, never the people they actually rule. How do they feel about the array of crises the machinations of the Council and CIA get Gallifrey into?
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Post by Star Platinum on May 10, 2019 20:30:25 GMT
So Sherlock, in your opinion as as political student. On paper does the system on Gallifrey actually work?
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2019 20:45:53 GMT
Interesting, though for me it's missing the most vital part of a nation, whether a country or a world (and possibly off Gallifrey colonies back in the day), and that's the commonry. Who are the people? What do they do? You've described well what can be gleaned from TV and audio, but it still smacks of originating from writers who may have transposed the hierarchy of a university, rather than studying any actual government of any real place. The original sources that is, rather than your ponderings on them It is interesting how little role non-Time Lord Gallifreyans have in their government. Literally all I could find is that they get to elect the President, and most of the time not even that due to the bizarre practice of the President getting to name a successor. Gallifrey is not much of a democratic system. It would be interesting to have the average joes of Gallifrey to be explored a bit. We do only ever get to see the Lords, never the people they actually rule. How do they feel about the array of crises the machinations of the Council and CIA get Gallifrey into? Yeah, it's almost more of a patrimonial oligarchy with a touch of royalty thrown in (particularly if a descendant of Rassilon takes precedence). It's one of the many big question marks surrounding Gallifrey. Culturally speaking, the Time Lords are the planet's aristocratic elite, which implies they're a minority demographic in the planet's population, but... That's not necessarily a guarantee. It might be that your bogstandard non-Time Lord Gallifreyans are the minority, which is why the Time Lords never worry about things like coups or the establishment of rogue nation-states. It's like whether or not the Capitol is the only city on Gallifrey. It likes to think it's the only one, but it probably isn't...? Nevertheless, even in the Capitol, we have Low Town. A slum where the low-born Gallifreyans resided in their planet's equivalent of poverty; i.e. not so much hindered by a strict lack of funds, as a strict lack of resources. Ankh-Morporkesque. I have a very nasty suspicion it's a case of them having the option to vote, but not having the means to actively get to the polls, so their impact is consequently rather small. You see the Chancellery Guard and you run the other way.
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Post by sherlock on May 10, 2019 21:27:31 GMT
So Sherlock, in your opinion as as political student. On paper does the system on Gallifrey actually work? Well it’s an interesting system. It’s essentially rule by aristocracy but structured as a democracy (it has a form of checks and balances system, it does seem to have free elections in those rare occasions a president’s successor is actually challenged, it seems to have freedom of speech and association-at least we never hear otherwise...). The High Council only being composed of and voted on by Time Lords reminds me of Plato’s idealised republic (where, to put it simply, those who are learned rule). I would suppose the theory here is that those who rule should be qualified enough to rule well. There’s more than enough cases across the TV and audio series to prove that theory does not hold, and that the High Council is primarily self-serving and its machinations cause crisis after crisis. The most bizarre element of the system is presidential succession, giving the president the opportunity to name their own successor. This essentially makes the president an elected monarch. Democratically speaking again, that is terrible. Especially on Gallifrey, where theoretically a President could just circumvent the term limits by nominating their next incarnation and then regenerating (maybe that’s how Borusa stayed President across two incarnations come to think of it...) All in all a very flawed system. You can understand why an idealist Time Lord might just bail on the whole thing, as the only way to meaningfully reform it would be to overhaul the constitution to give more of a role for commoners and democratise the succession for the president. Reforms require all Time Lords to vote on it...and well, turkeys don’t tend to vote for Christmas.
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Post by sherlock on May 10, 2019 21:41:51 GMT
It is interesting how little role non-Time Lord Gallifreyans have in their government. Literally all I could find is that they get to elect the President, and most of the time not even that due to the bizarre practice of the President getting to name a successor. Gallifrey is not much of a democratic system. It would be interesting to have the average joes of Gallifrey to be explored a bit. We do only ever get to see the Lords, never the people they actually rule. How do they feel about the array of crises the machinations of the Council and CIA get Gallifrey into? Yeah, it's almost more of a patrimonial oligarchy with a touch of royalty thrown in (particularly if a descendant of Rassilon takes precedence). It's one of the many big question marks surrounding Gallifrey. Culturally speaking, the Time Lords are the planet's aristocratic elite, which implies they're a minority demographic in the planet's population, but... That's not necessarily a guarantee. It might be that your bogstandard non-Time Lord Gallifreyans are the minority, which is why the Time Lords never worry about things like coups or the establishment of rogue nation-states. It's like whether or not the Capitol is the only city on Gallifrey. It likes to think it's the only one, but it probably isn't...? Nevertheless, even in the Capitol, we have Low Town. A slum where the low-born Gallifreyans resided in their planet's equivalent of poverty; i.e. not so much hindered by a strict lack of funds, as a strict lack of resources. Ankh-Morporkesque. I have a very nasty suspicion it's a case of them having the option to vote, but not having the means to actively get to the polls, so their impact is consequently rather small. You see the Chancellery Guard and you run the other way. We know for certain that Arcadia is officially the second city, and in Enemy Lines it’s mentioned people are coming to the Capitol from across Wild Endeavour for an inauguration implying settlements spread across the continent. Desperate Measures does imply a presidential candidate actually bothering to visit the other cities is something of a novelty so perhaps the elites of the Capitol do tend to ignore them for the most part.
The Day of the Doctor gives us the closest to an actual population estimate by claiming there is 2.47 billion children on Gallifrey (though what age exactly a Gallifreyan ceases to be a child is presumably much higher than humans), so Gallifrey’s total population must be well into the billions. With such a vast population, it seems more likely to me that the Time Lords are in a minority, but because Gallifreyan settlements are spread so thin across the planet they don’t really have to worry about any organised revolution. Actually according to the TARDIS wiki: ‘Billions of Gallifreyans lived outside the Capitol and the other cities of the Time Lords. They made up almost the entire population of Gallifrey. They lived on farms or homesteads and worked through the day to provide food for themselves and the Time Lords in the cities. (PROSE: A Brief History of Time Lords)’ We do hear mentions of the Shobagons who seem to do acts of minor sabotage against Time Lord society and meet the Outsiders in The Invasion of Time who reject Time Lord society altogether. So there is some form of resistance to the rule of the Time Lords, but not really enough to actually threaten it or compell the Lords to actually do anything about it.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2019 22:05:38 GMT
Yeah, it's almost more of a patrimonial oligarchy with a touch of royalty thrown in (particularly if a descendant of Rassilon takes precedence). It's one of the many big question marks surrounding Gallifrey. Culturally speaking, the Time Lords are the planet's aristocratic elite, which implies they're a minority demographic in the planet's population, but... That's not necessarily a guarantee. It might be that your bogstandard non-Time Lord Gallifreyans are the minority, which is why the Time Lords never worry about things like coups or the establishment of rogue nation-states. It's like whether or not the Capitol is the only city on Gallifrey. It likes to think it's the only one, but it probably isn't...? Nevertheless, even in the Capitol, we have Low Town. A slum where the low-born Gallifreyans resided in their planet's equivalent of poverty; i.e. not so much hindered by a strict lack of funds, as a strict lack of resources. Ankh-Morporkesque. I have a very nasty suspicion it's a case of them having the option to vote, but not having the means to actively get to the polls, so their impact is consequently rather small. You see the Chancellery Guard and you run the other way. We know for certain that Arcadia is officially the second city, and in Enemy Lines it’s mentioned people are coming to the Capitol from across Wild Endeavour for an inauguration implying settlements spread across the continent. Desperate Measures does imply a presidential candidate actually bothering to visit the other cities is something of a novelty so perhaps the elites of the Capitol do tend to ignore them for the most part.
The Day of the Doctor gives us the closest to an actual population estimate by claiming there is 2.47 billion children on Gallifrey (though what age exactly a Gallifreyan ceases to be a child is presumably much higher than humans), so Gallifrey’s total population must be well into the billions. With such a vast population, it seems more likely to me that the Time Lords are in a minority, but because Gallifreyan settlements are spread so thin across the planet they don’t really have to worry about any organised revolution. Actually according to the TARDIS wiki: ‘Billions of Gallifreyans lived outside the Capitol and the other cities of the Time Lords. They made up almost the entire population of Gallifrey. They lived on farms or homesteads and worked through the day to provide food for themselves and the Time Lords in the cities. (PROSE: A Brief History of Time Lords)’ We do hear mentions of the Shobagons who seem to do acts of minor sabotage against Time Lord society and meet the Outsiders in The Invasion of Time who reject Time Lord society altogether. So there is some form of resistance to the rule of the Time Lords, but not really enough to actually threaten it or compell the Lords to actually do anything about it. *snaps fingers* You're right, I forgot about Arcadia. Let's parse this out... So, the main enforcer of division is primarily geographical, which raises another interesting question: how many of those cities/farms (maybe even farm-cities? I can see them doing vertical farming^) are Gallifreyan and how many are Time Lord? There's an implication of segregation at work, which may mean differing legal rights between the two halves of their society. In fact, it's probably almost a guarantee in that regard. The reason why I say that is because transmat technology is a thing on Gallifrey, but if the population are still so diffuse as to be incapable of formenting "legitimate" (for want of a better term) rebellion, then not everyone must have access to it. It could be that Gallifreyans on a different technological level to their Time Lord counterparts as well, much like how the peasants are treated by the Three Who Rule in State of Decay. ^ - (The image of temporally-accelerated crop growth in vast ivory towers is actually kind of amazing. Huge, gothic halls of aeroponically-grown fruit and consumables.)
This is fun.
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Post by sherlock on May 10, 2019 22:43:50 GMT
We know for certain that Arcadia is officially the second city, and in Enemy Lines it’s mentioned people are coming to the Capitol from across Wild Endeavour for an inauguration implying settlements spread across the continent. Desperate Measures does imply a presidential candidate actually bothering to visit the other cities is something of a novelty so perhaps the elites of the Capitol do tend to ignore them for the most part.
The Day of the Doctor gives us the closest to an actual population estimate by claiming there is 2.47 billion children on Gallifrey (though what age exactly a Gallifreyan ceases to be a child is presumably much higher than humans), so Gallifrey’s total population must be well into the billions. With such a vast population, it seems more likely to me that the Time Lords are in a minority, but because Gallifreyan settlements are spread so thin across the planet they don’t really have to worry about any organised revolution. Actually according to the TARDIS wiki: ‘Billions of Gallifreyans lived outside the Capitol and the other cities of the Time Lords. They made up almost the entire population of Gallifrey. They lived on farms or homesteads and worked through the day to provide food for themselves and the Time Lords in the cities. (PROSE: A Brief History of Time Lords)’ We do hear mentions of the Shobagons who seem to do acts of minor sabotage against Time Lord society and meet the Outsiders in The Invasion of Time who reject Time Lord society altogether. So there is some form of resistance to the rule of the Time Lords, but not really enough to actually threaten it or compell the Lords to actually do anything about it. *snaps fingers* You're right, I forgot about Arcadia. Let's parse this out... So, the main enforcer of division is primarily geographical, which raises another interesting question: how many of those cities/farms (maybe even farm-cities? I can see them doing vertical farming^) are Gallifreyan and how many are Time Lord? There's an implication of segregation at work, which may mean differing legal rights between the two halves of their society. In fact, it's probably almost a guarantee in that regard. The reason why I say that is because transmat technology is a thing on Gallifrey, but if the population are still so diffuse as to be incapable of formenting "legitimate" (for want of a better term) rebellion, then not everyone must have access to it. It could be that Gallifreyans on a different technological level to their Time Lord counterparts as well, much like how the peasants are treated by the Three Who Rule in State of Decay. ^ - (The image of temporally-accelerated crop growth in vast ivory towers is actually kind of amazing. Huge, gothic halls of aeroponically-grown fruit and consumables.)
This is fun. It is odd how segregation defines a society that likes to pride itself as one of the most civilised in the universe. You’d have thought something like a transmat would be common place, as the Time Lord claims in Genesis of the Daleks that they mastered the technology when the universe was ‘half its present size’, but perhaps you’re onto something there and they do deliberately limit its use to prevent Gallifreyans having easy travel. It is very ironic if Gallifey’s society is similar to the Three Who Rule, given Time Lords and vampires are supposedly mortal enemies. Since Arcadia gets the special epithet of ‘second city’ I assume it’s a Time Lord city, but perhaps it’s more open to Gallifreyans than the Capitol. Whereas in the Capitol non-Time Lords are relegated to Low Town, perhaps Arcadia lets them just live more freely (I’m assuming that the families we see in Arcadia in The Day of the Doctor are Gallifreyan not Time Lords, as the Moment chooses to emphasis their suffering to the Doctors and as Gallifreyans would have had almost no say in the beginning or conduct of the War they are complete innocents caught in the crossfire). This openness might explain why the Capitol elites tend to ignore it. Looking further into the wiki, turns out there have been a potential revolutions. Apparently Prisoners of the Sun, a short story from one of the Decalog collections, features Gallifrey nearly falling victim to destruction due to alterations of history created by the third Doctor’s exile to Earth (which he corrects). The CIA redirect the citizens’ anger at this near miss towards the clergy instead, so several of the clergy end up executed including the ‘Supreme Pontiff of Time’ (now that’s a great title). One thing I’d completely forgotten is in The Ultimate Foe the Master claims the High Council has been deposed by a revolt in the wake of the Ravalox revelations, and the Inquisitor mentions the presidency is vacant at the end. Maybe the CIA stepped in again to remove the Councillors and President directly implicated in the scandal in a form of damage limitation to protect the wider system? Time Lord society is proving surprisingly fascinating.
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Post by Jeedai on May 11, 2019 3:15:09 GMT
One thing I’d completely forgotten is in The Ultimate Foe the Master claims the High Council has been deposed by a revolt in the wake of the Ravalox revelations, and the Inquisitor mentions the presidency is vacant at the end. Maybe the CIA stepped in again to remove the Councillors and President directly implicated in the scandal in a form of damage limitation to protect the wider system? Peri And The Piscon Paradox, to me, implies that there were multiple *counter-revolutions* following the revolt mentioned in The Ultimate Foe . Various factions of Time Lords coming into power in short succession. Each of whom altered and re-altered Peri's timeline, fine-tuning (their own notions of) a 'happy' ending for her timeline. All with the motive of keeping the Doctor from directing his ire at them while they consolidated power. And none of them knowing that the last cabal already did the same thing.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2019 7:31:52 GMT
*snaps fingers* You're right, I forgot about Arcadia. Let's parse this out... So, the main enforcer of division is primarily geographical, which raises another interesting question: how many of those cities/farms (maybe even farm-cities? I can see them doing vertical farming^) are Gallifreyan and how many are Time Lord? There's an implication of segregation at work, which may mean differing legal rights between the two halves of their society. In fact, it's probably almost a guarantee in that regard. The reason why I say that is because transmat technology is a thing on Gallifrey, but if the population are still so diffuse as to be incapable of formenting "legitimate" (for want of a better term) rebellion, then not everyone must have access to it. It could be that Gallifreyans on a different technological level to their Time Lord counterparts as well, much like how the peasants are treated by the Three Who Rule in State of Decay. ^ - (The image of temporally-accelerated crop growth in vast ivory towers is actually kind of amazing. Huge, gothic halls of aeroponically-grown fruit and consumables.)
This is fun. It is odd how segregation defines a society that likes to pride itself as one of the most civilised in the universe. You’d have thought something like a transmat would be common place, as the Time Lord claims in Genesis of the Daleks that they mastered the technology when the universe was ‘half its present size’, but perhaps you’re onto something there and they do deliberately limit its use to prevent Gallifreyans having easy travel. It is very ironic if Gallifey’s society is similar to the Three Who Rule, given Time Lords and vampires are supposedly mortal enemies. Since Arcadia gets the special epithet of ‘second city’ I assume it’s a Time Lord city, but perhaps it’s more open to Gallifreyans than the Capitol. Whereas in the Capitol non-Time Lords are relegated to Low Town, perhaps Arcadia lets them just live more freely (I’m assuming that the families we see in Arcadia in The Day of the Doctor are Gallifreyan not Time Lords, as the Moment chooses to emphasis their suffering to the Doctors and as Gallifreyans would have had almost no say in the beginning or conduct of the War they are complete innocents caught in the crossfire). This openness might explain why the Capitol elites tend to ignore it. Very, but I suppose that feeds into the hypocrisy of their society. They're one of the most civilised societies in the universe... to each other. Enough that the Doctor thinks the supposed Time Lord attack on Space Station Camera in The Two Doctors, a fraternal institution in relation to Gallifrey, is unthinkable. The plebian classes, however, have a much rougher time of it. Given how stagnant their civilisation is purported to be, it may be a remnant from the age wherein they fought the Yssgaroth and their vampire thralls. A cultural relic they never got rid of. And when you think like the enemy to try and best them, well... Perhaps the Time Lords became, in some parts, what they despised. It's not strictly in-canon, but it's written by David Martin and I rather like it. According to Garden of Evil, the city of Prydos is trading quite freely with other temporal powers. At least, in the context of the Sixth Doctor's time with us. Markets are filled with produce from other worlds and it was specifically chosen as a site to establish refugee camps while the Time Lords monitor an unprecedented galactic plague. In retrospect, that sounds a lot like an initiative under Romana's presidency, but it does point to the idea that there are other significant settlements with eccentric (at least, to Time Lord standards) policies on alien races. Time Lord settlements, as well, if Prydos bears any relation to the Prydonians. Looking further into the wiki, turns out there have been a potential revolutions. Apparently Prisoners of the Sun, a short story from one of the Decalog collections, features Gallifrey nearly falling victim to destruction due to alterations of history created by the third Doctor’s exile to Earth (which he corrects). The CIA redirect the citizens’ anger at this near miss towards the clergy instead, so several of the clergy end up executed including the ‘Supreme Pontiff of Time’ (now that’s a great title). One thing I’d completely forgotten is in The Ultimate Foe the Master claims the High Council has been deposed by a revolt in the wake of the Ravalox revelations, and the Inquisitor mentions the presidency is vacant at the end. Maybe the CIA stepped in again to remove the Councillors and President directly implicated in the scandal in a form of damage limitation to protect the wider system? Time Lord society is proving surprisingly fascinating. Definitely! Interestingly, according to The Eight Doctors, the initial depositions were perpetrated by the Shobogans, so maybe the CIA intervened a bit later on? Long enough after the fact for people's outrage over the Ravelox incident to simmer down. What the initial revolution (circa The Ultimate Foe) says to me is that it was far worse than a hush-up, it was a successful coup by those who had turned their back on Gallifreyan society. The drop-outs, the vandals and the petty saboteurs. The scandal must've been enormous. One thing I’d completely forgotten is in The Ultimate Foe the Master claims the High Council has been deposed by a revolt in the wake of the Ravalox revelations, and the Inquisitor mentions the presidency is vacant at the end. Maybe the CIA stepped in again to remove the Councillors and President directly implicated in the scandal in a form of damage limitation to protect the wider system? Peri And The Piscon Paradox, to me, implies that there were multiple *counter-revolutions* following the revolt mentioned in The Ultimate Foe . Various factions of Time Lords coming into power in short succession. Each of whom altered and re-altered Peri's timeline, fine-tuning (their own notions of) a 'happy' ending for her timeline. All with the motive of keeping the Doctor from directing his ire at them while they consolidated power. And none of them knowing that the last cabal already did the same thing. Combining these two together, maybe the CIA did try to set up a puppet government during the later chaos as a means of control? They're definitely not happy about Romana's reforms in Gallifrey and spend a great deal of resources attempting to stonewall her where possible. Combining the conflicting accounts from the wikia together: she ran against Flavia in an election and won, but Flavia wouldn't leave the position. Romana was asked to succeed her anyway and invoked the right of challenge, which lead to the coup that deposed Flavia. However, there is also evidence of someone else occupying the Presidency between her and Flavia, which makes me wonder if things were so unstable, there was an intervening or even temporarily-acting President. We might've had duelling Presidencies during this period. Things being so muddled that the interventionists on the ground didn't know some of these candidates were illegitimate.
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Post by Timelord007 on May 11, 2019 8:46:38 GMT
Boris Johnson as Cardinal Bouresa think he'd be a perfect on the council.
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Post by sherlock on May 11, 2019 10:43:07 GMT
@wolfie53 (just to avoid massive quoting)
Multiple regimes post-Ravalox is an interesting idea. At the end of The Ultimate Foe Inquisitor Darkel seems confident the situation will soon be brought under control so wheels of some sort must be in motion already. I wonder if the political timeline looked something like this: 1. Post-Ravalox Interim Government -A government designed to clear-up the aftermath of the scandal; the Valeyard is put on trial (Trial of the Valeyard), Zenobia decommissioned (The Brink of Death) and Ravalox’s devastation un-done (The Eight Doctors) -Faction leading it includes Inquisitor Darkel and Borusa, released by Rassilon temporarily in one of his more sane incarnations (The Eight Doctors) -Figurehead role for this government is offered to the Doctor (due to public sympathy for his role in exposing the scandal perhaps), with Peri’s fate as warrior queen created to entice him, when he declines the figurehead ends up going to Flavia who fulfils the role of Acting President (presumably she’s seen as a safe pair of hands) -During this interim period Romana returns from E-Space as per Blood Harvest and joins the High Council (Her closeness to the Doctor plus a lot of vacancies on the Council probably helps her quick political rise in the post-Ravalox era) -Interim government eventually gives way to a proper regime led by Flavia, likely through machinations of CIA and conservative factions
2. Flavia’s Presidency -Flavia becomes President proper (likely backed by conservative factions looking to reassert control now the scandal has died down a bit) -Flavia’s regime creates another version of Peri, perhaps to insulate themselves against the Doctor, given this regime’s traditionalist leanings its likely this was the Peri and the Piscon Paradox version -Flavia’s establishment-leaning regime fails to accommodate the current political climate, and the unorthodox manner of her becoming president likely inflamed tensions further -A (political) coup is launched against Flavia (I imagine factions in the High Council just stonewalled her appointments and propositions) and the reformist Romana is approached to lead the charge to remove her. Despite her lack of political experience, Romana’s closeness to the Doctor and reformist tendencies make her popular in the current climate -Romana invokes right of challenge to an electoral competition against Flavia; she wins the subsequent election
3. Romana’s Presidency -Romana becomes President, facing severe opposition from conservative factions in the High Council and CIA (as per Happy Endings and Lungbarrow) but with strong support amongst public -As a kind of favour to the Doctor, Romana attempts to provide Peri with a happier ending and thus a fourth version of Peri comes into existence -Months into her presidency, Romana attends a summit on Etra Prime which promptly disappears -An Acting President is swiftly appointed; he’s an uncontroversial figure with some connections to the Doctor (well at least the Doctor seems to know him in The Apocalypse Element). Perhaps he was Romana’s Vice President at the time.
4. Caretaker Presidency -Caretaker situation lasts for twenty years -During this period a fifth and final version of Peri is created for unknown reasons -Romana returns after twenty years, with even more public sympathy on her side due to her suffering as a prisoner of the Daleks and perceived incompetence of the CIA during the Etra Prime Incident
5. Romana’s (Second) Presidency -As heard in Neverland/Zagreus and the Gallifrey series
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2019 11:28:59 GMT
@wolfie53 (just to avoid massive quoting) Multiple regimes post-Ravalox is an interesting idea. At the end of The Ultimate Foe Inquisitor Darkel seems confident the situation will soon be brought under control so wheels of some sort must be in motion already. I wonder if the political timeline looked something like this: 1. Post-Ravalox Interim Government -A government designed to clear-up the aftermath of the scandal; the Valeyard is put on trial (Trial of the Valeyard), Zenobia decommissioned (The Brink of Death) and Ravalox’s devastation un-done (The Eight Doctors) -Faction leading it includes Inquisitor Darkel and Borusa, released by Rassilon temporarily in one of his more sane incarnations (The Eight Doctors) -Figurehead role for this government is offered to the Doctor (due to public sympathy for his role in exposing the scandal perhaps), with Peri’s fate as warrior queen created to entice him, when he declines the figurehead ends up going to Flavia who fulfils the role of Acting President (presumably she’s seen as a safe pair of hands) -During this interim period Romana returns from E-Space as per Blood Harvest and joins the High Council (Her closeness to the Doctor plus a lot of vacancies on the Council probably helps her quick political rise in the post-Ravalox era) -Interim government eventually gives way to a proper regime led by Flavia, likely through machinations of CIA and conservative factions 2. Flavia’s Presidency -Flavia becomes President proper (likely backed by conservative factions looking to reassert control now the scandal has died down a bit) -Flavia’s regime creates another version of Peri, perhaps to insulate themselves against the Doctor, given this regime’s traditionalist leanings its likely this was the Peri and the Piscon Paradox version -Flavia’s establishment-leaning regime fails to accommodate the current political climate, and the unorthodox manner of her becoming president likely inflamed tensions further -A (political) coup is launched against Flavia (I imagine factions in the High Council just stonewalled her appointments and propositions) and the reformist Romana is approached to lead the charge to remove her. Despite her lack of political experience, Romana’s closeness to the Doctor and reformist tendencies make her popular in the current climate -Romana invokes right of challenge to an electoral competition against Flavia; she wins the subsequent election 3. Romana’s Presidency -Romana becomes President, facing severe opposition from conservative factions in the High Council and CIA (as per Happy Endings and Lungbarrow) but with strong support amongst public -As a kind of favour to the Doctor, Romana attempts to provide Peri with a happier ending and thus a fourth version of Peri comes into existence -Months into her presidency, Romana attends a summit on Etra Prime which promptly disappears -An Acting President is swiftly appointed; he’s an uncontroversial figure with some connections to the Doctor (well at least the Doctor seems to know him in The Apocalypse Element). Perhaps he was Romana’s Vice President at the time. 4. Caretaker Presidency -Caretaker situation lasts for twenty years -During this period a fifth and final version of Peri is created for unknown reasons -Romana returns after twenty years, with even more public sympathy on her side due to her suffering as a prisoner of the Daleks and perceived incompetence of the CIA during the Etra Prime Incident 5. Romana’s (Second) Presidency -As heard in Neverland/Zagreus and the Gallifrey series Oh, I like that a lot. The interim government are lead by figures that represent Time Lord law, order and stability. Darkel, Borusa and Flavia, respectively. Two exist in that liminal space of criminality with ambiguity over Darkel's ties to the Valeyard and Borusa's condemnation (and later release) purportedly by Rassilon himself, but it's a step in the right direction. The new regime has a definitive face, now contested by factions representing the Valeyard, the Master, the CIA and probably the Shobogan rebels who deposed the previous government. Likely with some overlap between the four. In this time, the Master flees with Glitz, the Valeyard allows himself to be rediscovered and the CIA are on warm enough terms that Flavia's administration sticks. A direct line to Rassilon is a bit problematic for influencing policymaking, though, so Borusa's quietly shuffled back into the Tower. It's entirely headcanon, but it kind of feeds into a theory I have about renegade Time Lords during that later era. I think they were being pulled in for trial on Zenobia by the Valeyard long before the Doctor turned up. Renegades were usually ignored for the majority of the time. More foreign nationals than defectors. That is until the Fifth Doctor's era where the Time Lords are starting to take a more active approach to their neighbours (Camera, Etra Prime, et al.). It pays to have a good reputation and their renegades are now being looked upon as... problematic. While that solved their runaways issue, it also opened up a new social issue: becoming a renegade wasn't apolitical anymore. You could flee Gallifrey, meet new and interestng people, but only if you swore party loyalty. Favouritism was in play and that's what I think shifted public opinion. Some were perceived to be punished more than others.
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Post by sherlock on May 11, 2019 14:59:56 GMT
It's entirely headcanon, but it kind of feeds into a theory I have about renegade Time Lords during that later era. I think they were being pulled in for trial on Zenobia by the Valeyard long before the Doctor turned up. Renegades were usually ignored for the majority of the time. More foreign nationals than defectors. That is until the Fifth Doctor's era where the Time Lords are starting to take a more active approach to their neighbours (Camera, Etra Prime, et al.). It pays to have a good reputation and their renegades are now being looked upon as... problematic. While that solved their runaways issue, it also opened up a new social issue: becoming a renegade wasn't apolitical anymore. You could flee Gallifrey, meet new and interestng people, but only if you swore party loyalty. Favouritism was in play and that's what I think shifted public opinion. Some were perceived to be punished more than others. It is interesting how the Time Lords seem to make very little effort to actually rein in their Renegades. The only incident I can think of is Constable Pavo pursuing the Monk in The Black Hole and the seventh Doctor being assigned to capture the Eleven. The Time Lords don’t even initially capture the Doctor until he literally reveals himself to them. It’s not like the Time Lords don’t have the means to track the Renegades down either; they summon the Master with seeming ease in The Five Doctors and easily capture the Doctor in Mindwarp. So there must be a alterior motive to giving the Renegades almost free rein (how many of the TARDIS’ seemingly random landings were all that random you might wonder...). Of course keeping the Renegades off-world is largely beneficial to the ruling elites. Better that the Doctor’s off topping regimes out in the far end of the Galaxy, the Master’s scheming a plot on Traken and the Rani’s experimenting on humans in 19th Century than them be dissidents on Gallifrey or imprisoned martyrs for what few opposition there is to the current system. Perhaps the Doctor’s trial changes all that, the Council see the Doctor stumbling on their carefully buried scandal and the Master attempting to use to seize power, thus sabotaging their attempt to cover up the Doctor’s discovery, and those events causing a revolution. The Renegades are now unquestionably influential on the public of Gallifrey, so the Time Lords need to be more responsible towards them. This may explain Romana’s subsequent policies of having the Doctor capture the Eleven and giving the Master over to the Daleks as a peace overture, and why she later reacts so harshly to the Doctor causing the Anti-Time crisis as he presumably was considered a ‘party loyal’ Renegade under her presidency until that point.
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Post by Jeedai on May 11, 2019 19:19:49 GMT
It is interesting how the Time Lords seem to make very little effort to actually rein in their Renegades. The only incident I can think of is Constable Pavo pursuing the Monk in The Black Hole and the seventh Doctor being assigned to capture the Eleven. The Time Lords don’t even initially capture the Doctor until he literally reveals himself to them. It’s not like the Time Lords don’t have the means to track the Renegades down either; they summon the Master with seeming ease in The Five Doctors and easily capture the Doctor in Mindwarp. So there must be a alterior motive to giving the Renegades almost free rein (how many of the TARDIS’ seemingly random landings were all that random you might wonder...). Of course keeping the Renegades off-world is largely beneficial to the ruling elites. Better that the Doctor’s off topping regimes out in the far end of the Galaxy, the Master’s scheming a plot on Traken and the Rani’s experimenting on humans in 19th Century than them be dissidents on Gallifrey or imprisoned martyrs for what few opposition there is to the current system. Perhaps the Doctor’s trial changes all that, the Council see the Doctor stumbling on their carefully buried scandal and the Master attempting to use to seize power, thus sabotaging their attempt to cover up the Doctor’s discovery, and those events causing a revolution. The Renegades are now unquestionably influential on the public of Gallifrey, so the Time Lords need to be more responsible towards them. This may explain Romana’s subsequent policies of having the Doctor capture the Eleven and giving the Master over to the Daleks as a peace overture, and why she later reacts so harshly to the Doctor causing the Anti-Time crisis as he presumably was considered a ‘party loyal’ Renegade under her presidency until that point. I figure the CIA and aligned members of the Council and Military hierarchy make frequent habit of press-ganging renegades to do their wetwork for them. Expendable agents put to (involuntary) work manipulating worlds and civilizations in Gallifrey's interest, while the politicians and entrenched bureaucrats responsible for these violation of Gallifrey's non-intervention policies keep their hands clean. We only see/read/hear the incidents where the Doctor, and occasionally the Master, are drawn into their schemes. Doubtless they had uses for the Rani's biochemical skillset from time to time. When such a 'troubleshooting' job goes bad, the handler washes their hands of said conscript and claims "a renegade was tripping over the Web Of Time, as renegades do" as cover. Furthering the vilification of renegades on the home front, and the political ambitions of those who publicly claim to stand against the free rein they are granted. These little 'mishaps' might have started piling up in the days before Ravelox. Leading to the show trials of multiple renegades, into which the Valyard insinuated himself on route to prosecuting his younger iteration.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on May 11, 2019 19:28:10 GMT
Boris Johnson as Cardinal Bouresa think he'd be a perfect on the council. You need to go and lie down somewhere quiet LOL
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2019 23:55:51 GMT
It is interesting how the Time Lords seem to make very little effort to actually rein in their Renegades. The only incident I can think of is Constable Pavo pursuing the Monk in The Black Hole and the seventh Doctor being assigned to capture the Eleven. The Time Lords don’t even initially capture the Doctor until he literally reveals himself to them. It’s not like the Time Lords don’t have the means to track the Renegades down either; they summon the Master with seeming ease in The Five Doctors and easily capture the Doctor in Mindwarp. So there must be a alterior motive to giving the Renegades almost free rein (how many of the TARDIS’ seemingly random landings were all that random you might wonder...). Of course keeping the Renegades off-world is largely beneficial to the ruling elites. Better that the Doctor’s off topping regimes out in the far end of the Galaxy, the Master’s scheming a plot on Traken and the Rani’s experimenting on humans in 19th Century than them be dissidents on Gallifrey or imprisoned martyrs for what few opposition there is to the current system. Perhaps the Doctor’s trial changes all that, the Council see the Doctor stumbling on their carefully buried scandal and the Master attempting to use to seize power, thus sabotaging their attempt to cover up the Doctor’s discovery, and those events causing a revolution. The Renegades are now unquestionably influential on the public of Gallifrey, so the Time Lords need to be more responsible towards them. This may explain Romana’s subsequent policies of having the Doctor capture the Eleven and giving the Master over to the Daleks as a peace overture, and why she later reacts so harshly to the Doctor causing the Anti-Time crisis as he presumably was considered a ‘party loyal’ Renegade under her presidency until that point. I figure the CIA and aligned members of the Council and Military hierarchy make frequent habit of press-ganging renegades to do their wetwork for them. Expendable agents put to (involuntary) work manipulating worlds and civilizations in Gallifrey's interest, while the politicians and entrenched bureaucrats responsible for these violation of Gallifrey's non-intervention policies keep their hands clean. We only see/read/hear the incidents where the Doctor, and occasionally the Master, are drawn into their schemes. Doubtless they had uses for the Rani's biochemical skillset from time to time. When such a 'troubleshooting' job goes bad, the handler washes their hands of said conscript and claims "a renegade was tripping over the Web Of Time, as renegades do" as cover. Furthering the vilification of renegades on the home front, and the political ambitions of those who publicly claim to stand against the free rein they are granted. These little 'mishaps' might have started piling up in the days before Ravelox. Leading to the show trials of multiple renegades, into which the Valyard insinuated himself on route to prosecuting his younger iteration. Ravelox is also significant for being the first time -- on television, at least -- that we have a pair of Renegades actively investigating a previous intervention. The Doctor takes Peri there to sate his curiosity regarding a discrepancy in the Time Lord records. The Master dispatches Glitz to assassinate Drathro and retrieve the Sleepers' arcana. Two parties, completely independent of one another, nevertheless came across this carefully buried secret. The Doctor likely because of a hunch and the Master likely from his researches. The two mercenaries only succeed over the Doctor and Peri because they were properly briefed, so not only is that information already out there, it's being shared with conmen on contract. The wider situation was manageable because for a long time, the Renegades kept well clear of anything even remotely Gallifreyan. When they were scooped up for interventions, they did their part and were dropped back wherever they were found. A bit of sulking. Protests, perhaps, but nothing particularly damaging. Their decision to branch out and exert a wider influence means they have more Renegades at their disposal. However, with that influence comes curiosity. The more experienced tearaways among them are taking an interest. Agents or not, if they're interfering in Gallifreyan politicking, they've become a liability. The trials are the perfect means to denounce and then destroy them. (For the Valeyard personally, the show trials also have the benefit of discrediting or outright destroying potential allies the Doctor could call upon once he was summoned. I strongly suspect that the Master used Glitz as his pointman for a number of capers in order to further investigate these disappearances.)
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Post by sherlock on May 12, 2019 11:42:56 GMT
It is interesting how the Time Lords seem to make very little effort to actually rein in their Renegades. The only incident I can think of is Constable Pavo pursuing the Monk in The Black Hole and the seventh Doctor being assigned to capture the Eleven. The Time Lords don’t even initially capture the Doctor until he literally reveals himself to them. It’s not like the Time Lords don’t have the means to track the Renegades down either; they summon the Master with seeming ease in The Five Doctors and easily capture the Doctor in Mindwarp. So there must be a alterior motive to giving the Renegades almost free rein (how many of the TARDIS’ seemingly random landings were all that random you might wonder...). Of course keeping the Renegades off-world is largely beneficial to the ruling elites. Better that the Doctor’s off topping regimes out in the far end of the Galaxy, the Master’s scheming a plot on Traken and the Rani’s experimenting on humans in 19th Century than them be dissidents on Gallifrey or imprisoned martyrs for what few opposition there is to the current system. Perhaps the Doctor’s trial changes all that, the Council see the Doctor stumbling on their carefully buried scandal and the Master attempting to use to seize power, thus sabotaging their attempt to cover up the Doctor’s discovery, and those events causing a revolution. The Renegades are now unquestionably influential on the public of Gallifrey, so the Time Lords need to be more responsible towards them. This may explain Romana’s subsequent policies of having the Doctor capture the Eleven and giving the Master over to the Daleks as a peace overture, and why she later reacts so harshly to the Doctor causing the Anti-Time crisis as he presumably was considered a ‘party loyal’ Renegade under her presidency until that point. I figure the CIA and aligned members of the Council and Military hierarchy make frequent habit of press-ganging renegades to do their wetwork for them. Expendable agents put to (involuntary) work manipulating worlds and civilizations in Gallifrey's interest, while the politicians and entrenched bureaucrats responsible for these violation of Gallifrey's non-intervention policies keep their hands clean. We only see/read/hear the incidents where the Doctor, and occasionally the Master, are drawn into their schemes. Doubtless they had uses for the Rani's biochemical skillset from time to time. When such a 'troubleshooting' job goes bad, the handler washes their hands of said conscript and claims "a renegade was tripping over the Web Of Time, as renegades do" as cover. Furthering the vilification of renegades on the home front, and the political ambitions of those who publicly claim to stand against the free rein they are granted. These little 'mishaps' might have started piling up in the days before Ravelox. Leading to the show trials of multiple renegades, into which the Valyard insinuated himself on route to prosecuting his younger iteration. In the sixth Doctor’s case there definitely is an increase in mishaps prior to his trial. The Time Lords have to intervene to stop him messing up history in Slipback and The World Shapers, in Mission to Magnus he encounters a Time Lord ambassador on a mission and he messes up some Time Lord machinations in Synthespians. Ravalox is probably just the final straw for the High Council to want rid of him. Perhaps the show trials are what inspires the Master to investigate Ravalox himself, looking for dirt on the High Council to insulate himself and sending Glitz to do the ground work so no-one realises what he’s doing. These investigations in anticipation of a potential show trial also probably lead to him discovering who the Valeyard is. The truth about Ravalox is presumably bigger than he’d anticipated and then when the Doctor’s trial happens he has the perfect forum to expose the truth publicly and attempt to seize control of the ensuing chaos.
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