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Post by nucleusofswarm on Jun 1, 2019 0:17:08 GMT
As a sequel to my Devil's Advocate thread, take a Who story you absolutely love, and find something to complain about. Could be big, could be small, could be something only you would really care about, but sound off.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2019 16:20:18 GMT
To start the ball rolling: 'Talons of Weng Chiang'
That furry giant rat of a cliffhanger has always been the one thing that sticks out for me. A solitary reminder if you were showing it to a critical viewer to prove that Doctor Who could do proper non kids TV period drama in the style of Sherlock Holmes with all the production values to match, that there is always an easy target for the cynics to get hold of.
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Post by tuigirl on Jun 1, 2019 18:37:44 GMT
Got a few....
I love and adore Day of the Doctor, however, it has never come together at the end, at least to my satisfaction, how all the Doctors could have helped in that. The reasons appear to involve a lot of timey-wimey stuff and I just do not get it. It also did take me a couple of viewings to get the plot-twist with the painting. I honestly did not get it first time!
While I like the Zygon 2parter in series 9, the speech at the end is fantastic!, I am completely underwhelmed by the tactical behavior of the Unit soldiers. They know they fight Zygons, but they are still swayed by the evil doppelgangers into the most obvious trap ever. Sorry, but even I cannot suspend my disbelief that much.
Deep breath. Hey, I liked it more than most other post-Regeneration stories and it ranks right after my favorite 11th hour. Very well done, great suspense, we see the Paternosters again and the villain was nicely creepy. But. Clara. Do they seriously expect me to believe that Clara has a problem accepting the Doctors regeneration? Just two episodes ago she had tea and biscuits with the War Doctor, an old man!, and now she does not get the new body of 12? I understand that this was done so the audience can identify themselves with her, since it is such a big change from Smith to Capaldi. But rationally, it makes zero sense to me.
A small niggle to BF Kingmaker- one of my favorite stories, and I do not even like 5 that much. Just the right balance between comedy and seriousness. However. I know it is important for the story and an important plot point. But I do not buy one second the story how the Doctor could be tricked into getting blind drunk. He has shown time and again how good his sense of taste is and he knows what intoxication feels like in various forms. No way he could be tricked that easily. Only thing I can think off was that he actually wanted and enjoyed getting that drunk, but I do not buy this from 5. Sixie, yes, but 5?
I am sure I could find a few more when I do a bit more thinking. Maybe I come back here a later date...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2019 20:06:21 GMT
Got a few.... I love and adore Day of the Doctor, however, it has never come together at the end, at least to my satisfaction, how all the Doctors could have helped in that. The reasons appear to involve a lot of timey-wimey stuff and I just do not get it. It also did take me a couple of viewings to get the plot-twist with the painting. I honestly did not get it first time! While I like the Zygon 2parter in series 9, the speech at the end is fantastic!, I am completely underwhelmed by the tactical behavior of the Unit soldiers. They know they fight Zygons, but they are still swayed by the evil doppelgangers into the most obvious trap ever. Sorry, but even I cannot suspend my disbelief that much. Deep breath. Hey, I liked it more than most other post-Regeneration stories and it ranks right after my favorite 11th hour. Very well done, great suspense, we see the Paternosters again and the villain was nicely creepy. But. Clara. Do they seriously expect me to believe that Clara has a problem accepting the Doctors regeneration? Just two episodes ago she had tea and biscuits with the War Doctor, an old man!, and now she does not get the new body of 12? I understand that this was done so the audience can identify themselves with her, since it is such a big change from Smith to Capaldi. But rationally, it makes zero sense to me. A small niggle to BF Kingmaker- one of my favorite stories, and I do not even like 5 that much. Just the right balance between comedy and seriousness. However. I know it is important for the story and an important plot point. But I do not buy one second the story how the Doctor could be tricked into getting blind drunk. He has shown time and again how good his sense of taste is and he knows what intoxication feels like in various forms. No way he could be tricked that easily. Only thing I can think off was that he actually wanted and enjoyed getting that drunk, but I do not buy this from 5. Sixie, yes, but 5? I am sure I could find a few more when I do a bit more thinking. Maybe I come back here a later date... Some fresh observations to me there. As per my own post, you may observe that I don't wear the 'critical thinking' cap when watching Dr Who. Other films and series, yes, but it generally takes a lackadaisical approach to plotting overall to get me thinking 'hang on a minute'. People observe that episode 4 of 'Pyramids of Mars' seems to belong to different story or production, yet it is Sutekh's comfy cushion for all eternity and the wandering hand of a luckless crew member that takes me out of the Drama far more. One point of agreement though: The involvement of the past doctors in the 50th anniversary story seemed merely tacked on to justify a montage image of all together. Having not watched since 2013 though, what was the plot twist with the painting? I must confess I was not watching too deeply, enjoying it immensely as I was, but less thoughtfully. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2019 20:44:53 GMT
Oof... The Daleks. It's genuinely wonderful, the show's first groundbreaking success. It's got strong characterisations, tightly plotted, the production values are near seamless... It's a sort of litmus test for everything the show was capable of, everything it could achieve. Unfortunately, that also includes its capacity for padding. I very much enjoy it from beginning to end, but it could probably stand to be an episode shorter. There are a few scenes towards the end of "The Exposition Expedition" and the start of "The Ordeal" that feel as though they repeat themselves.
The Invasion. A Cyber-epic with everything it needs to back up its mammoth eight episodes of runtime. Kevin Stoney is on hand to give us Tobias Vaughn, Douglas Camfield is directing with his signature style and grace, the Cybermen have probably one of their best designs for the 1960s (although I'm partial to the creepiness of Wheel)... But the Brigadier's "We destroyed the transmitter, don't worry about it," does feel a bit like a cheat. It doesn't matter as much, given we were just spoiled with St. Paul's and UNIT out in force, but still, it would've been nice to get that closure. (In a different universe, how cool would it have been to go from Invasion to Tomb?)
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Post by tuigirl on Jun 1, 2019 21:09:45 GMT
Got a few.... I love and adore Day of the Doctor, however, it has never come together at the end, at least to my satisfaction, how all the Doctors could have helped in that. The reasons appear to involve a lot of timey-wimey stuff and I just do not get it. It also did take me a couple of viewings to get the plot-twist with the painting. I honestly did not get it first time! While I like the Zygon 2parter in series 9, the speech at the end is fantastic!, I am completely underwhelmed by the tactical behavior of the Unit soldiers. They know they fight Zygons, but they are still swayed by the evil doppelgangers into the most obvious trap ever. Sorry, but even I cannot suspend my disbelief that much. Deep breath. Hey, I liked it more than most other post-Regeneration stories and it ranks right after my favorite 11th hour. Very well done, great suspense, we see the Paternosters again and the villain was nicely creepy. But. Clara. Do they seriously expect me to believe that Clara has a problem accepting the Doctors regeneration? Just two episodes ago she had tea and biscuits with the War Doctor, an old man!, and now she does not get the new body of 12? I understand that this was done so the audience can identify themselves with her, since it is such a big change from Smith to Capaldi. But rationally, it makes zero sense to me. A small niggle to BF Kingmaker- one of my favorite stories, and I do not even like 5 that much. Just the right balance between comedy and seriousness. However. I know it is important for the story and an important plot point. But I do not buy one second the story how the Doctor could be tricked into getting blind drunk. He has shown time and again how good his sense of taste is and he knows what intoxication feels like in various forms. No way he could be tricked that easily. Only thing I can think off was that he actually wanted and enjoyed getting that drunk, but I do not buy this from 5. Sixie, yes, but 5? I am sure I could find a few more when I do a bit more thinking. Maybe I come back here a later date... Some fresh observations to me there. As per my own post, you may observe that I don't wear the 'critical thinking' cap when watching Dr Who. Other films and series, yes, but it generally takes a lackadaisical approach to plotting overall to get me thinking 'hang on a minute'. People observe that episode 4 of 'Pyramids of Mars' seems to belong to different story or production, yet it is Sutekh's comfy cushion for all eternity and the wandering hand of a luckless crew member that takes me out of the Drama far more. One point of agreement though: The involvement of the past doctors in the 50th anniversary story seemed merely tacked on to justify a montage image of all together. Having not watched since 2013 though, what was the plot twist with the painting? I must confess I was not watching too deeply, enjoying it immensely as I was, but less thoughtfully. Haha, Love Pyramids of Mars and only noticed the hand after someone had pointed it out to me and the tacked on 4th episode I only realized when I listened to the commentary. This is how captivating it is! As for the plot device with the painting... the gallifreyan painting is no painting at all but a frozen moment in time and the Doctors use it to get to the unit archives and the Mexican standoff with the Zygons in time. It is a scene with lots of explosions which are very distracting and on first watching I did not get how the Doctors got first to Gallifrey, then into the painting and how the story was supposed to flow. The whole story is an intricate maze of Russian doll timelines flowing together and impossible to understand with watching only once. I think it is extremely clever and I love it, I am a sucker for non-linear stories. I even enjoyed Moffats novelisation because he managed to make it look fresh and different even if you had seen the TV version 5 times already. The book is however as complicated, maybe even more so, and not linear at all, so it is not the biggest help in understanding. Isn’t Moffat fond of diagrams? Maybe I need to draw a diagram. Edit: no, he should have included his diagram in the book! I totally agree with you, all the Doctors together.... just feels tacked on. It is as if he had first planned on destroying the planet and changed his mind just at the very last minute. |
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Jun 2, 2019 21:30:08 GMT
Greatest Show in the Galaxy: Why, exactly, is the Chief Clown worries about where Flower Child is, he knows the Conductor killed her?
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Jun 2, 2019 21:30:57 GMT
Theatre of War: Why does Aranholt’s voice change between episodes three and four when given the exact same speech?
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Jun 3, 2019 2:08:36 GMT
Underworld. So much to love in this - the story is witty and literate, the guest cast are mostly competent, the ideas are stunning - but if ever there was a candidate for a three-part story, this is it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2019 3:23:49 GMT
Underworld. So much to love in this - the story is witty and literate, the guest cast are mostly competent, the ideas are stunning - but if ever there was a candidate for a three-part story, this is it. As an aside, this is one of the stories I most want to see get the VFX treatment on Blu-ray. The decision to use CSO to mask the lack of sets was brilliant, but the remastering hasn't been very kind to it. Could you imagine what could be done with CGI replacements/enhancements nowadays? |
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
Likes: 5,666
Member is Online
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Post by shutupbanks on Jun 3, 2019 12:04:49 GMT
Underworld. So much to love in this - the story is witty and literate, the guest cast are mostly competent, the ideas are stunning - but if ever there was a candidate for a three-part story, this is it. As an aside, this is one of the stories I most want to see get the VFX treatment on Blu-ray. The decision to use CSO to mask the lack of sets was brilliant, but the remastering hasn't been very kind to it. Could you imagine what could be done with CGI replacements/enhancements nowadays? It would look brilliant but I really can’t see the appeal of re-doing the effects of a film or show. They’re part of what attracts/ intrigues a viewer in the first place. I recently watched a few eps of TOS on Netflix and the jarring nature of 60s action and sets with modern space effects really took me out of the action. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2019 12:53:04 GMT
As an aside, this is one of the stories I most want to see get the VFX treatment on Blu-ray. The decision to use CSO to mask the lack of sets was brilliant, but the remastering hasn't been very kind to it. Could you imagine what could be done with CGI replacements/enhancements nowadays? It would look brilliant but I really can’t see the appeal of re-doing the effects of a film or show. They’re part of what attracts/ intrigues a viewer in the first place. I recently watched a few eps of TOS on Netflix and the jarring nature of 60s action and sets with modern space effects really took me out of the action. See, that's interesting. For me personally, I find the effects for TOS strike that delicate balance between modern tech and bygone aesthetics. The city of Stratos in The Cloud Minders is one of my favourites for that reason. Respecting the original Jeffries design as strongly as possible, while simultaneously bringing in whatever new details they could muster. The only one that really threw me out of an episode was the aerial wide shot on Vulcan for "Amok Time". Nice though it was, it didn't quite marry up with the audio soundtrack. I think it can work if additions are made to the benefit of the story. Not exclusively for the purposes of flaunting that new technology. Adywan of Star Wars Revisited fame, for instance, is a terrific example. His work for The Empire Strikes Back is gorgeously realised with refilmed costumes and models. CGI is used predominantly as a last resort and when it is...   |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2019 13:54:25 GMT
It would look brilliant but I really can’t see the appeal of re-doing the effects of a film or show. They’re part of what attracts/ intrigues a viewer in the first place. I recently watched a few eps of TOS on Netflix and the jarring nature of 60s action and sets with modern space effects really took me out of the action. See, that's interesting. For me personally, I find the effects for TOS strike that delicate balance between modern tech and bygone aesthetics. The city of Stratos in The Cloud Minders is one of my favourites for that reason. Respecting the original Jeffries design as strongly as possible, while simultaneously bringing in whatever new details they could muster. The only one that really threw me out of an episode was the aerial wide shot on Vulcan for "Amok Time". Nice though it was, it didn't quite marry up with the audio soundtrack. I think it can work if additions are made to the benefit of the story. Not exclusively for the purposes of flaunting that new technology. Adywan of Star Wars Revisited fame, for instance, is a terrific example. His work for The Empire Strikes Back is gorgeously realised with refilmed costumes and models. CGI is used predominantly as a last resort and when it is... The star wars original lucas redits are mostly bad but one change i always apreciate is the cloud city which looks much better in the remakes. I think as long as the changing are what the original team wanted but couldnt do because of time and money i think thats the way forward. But it should always be looked at from the perspective of when the material comes from, ie it shouldn’t look like somthing only someone from the 21st century would think of. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2019 14:29:21 GMT
See, that's interesting. For me personally, I find the effects for TOS strike that delicate balance between modern tech and bygone aesthetics. The city of Stratos in The Cloud Minders is one of my favourites for that reason. Respecting the original Jeffries design as strongly as possible, while simultaneously bringing in whatever new details they could muster. The only one that really threw me out of an episode was the aerial wide shot on Vulcan for "Amok Time". Nice though it was, it didn't quite marry up with the audio soundtrack. I think it can work if additions are made to the benefit of the story. Not exclusively for the purposes of flaunting that new technology. Adywan of Star Wars Revisited fame, for instance, is a terrific example. His work for The Empire Strikes Back is gorgeously realised with refilmed costumes and models. CGI is used predominantly as a last resort and when it is... The star wars original lucas redits are mostly bad but one change i always apreciate is the cloud city which looks much better in the remakes. I think as long as the changing are what the original team wanted but couldnt do because of time and money i think thats the way forward. But it should always be looked at from the perspective of when the material comes from, ie it shouldn’t look like somthing only someone from the 21st century would think of. Yeah, exactly. A retrofuturistic homage. Much like how the Special Edition version of Day of the Daleks employed the same cameras they used on the original production to record new footage. An interesting avenue to explore for Underworld specifically could be to have Mike Tucker's modelling team create new tunnels for the upscaled story. Same production method as the original, but with the benefit of that forty years hindsight. |
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