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Post by mark687 on Jun 5, 2019 14:02:00 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2019 14:28:15 GMT
He's been on that slope for ages with his views - I'd say he's off the cliff-edge now!
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Jun 5, 2019 14:59:54 GMT
This kind of says everything I could about this:
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Post by stcoop on Jun 5, 2019 15:37:22 GMT
What Slippery Slope. If you choose to be a transphobic piece of crap, you shouldn't be surprised at the reaction.
The hillarious part is that I'm sure he'd have something to say to anyone who claimed that there was no such thing as being gay and that everybody was born hetrosexual.
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Post by mark687 on Jun 5, 2019 15:47:02 GMT
What Slippery Slope. If you choose to be a transphobic piece of crap, you shouldn't be surprised at the reaction.
The hillarious part is that I'm sure he'd have something to say to anyone who claimed that there was no such thing as being gay and that everybody was born hetrosexual.
Agreed
Regards
mark687
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2019 16:30:09 GMT
What does he expect, the silly sausage?
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Post by masterdoctor on Jun 5, 2019 16:31:18 GMT
I think what people are really getting wrong is the implication that BBC Books is suppressing free speech. Now correct me if I’m wrong, but BBC Books is a commercial offshoot of the BBC. This wouldn’t actually make them government agencies. Therefore the free speech accusation is false as it is a private business. And even if they were a government agency, they do have a right not to publish something they don’t want, they only cannot suppress citizens from being free in speech. Gareth Roberts has also been likely been treated fairly from the contract that he signed, as mentioned he has been paid for his work. Moral of the story is that when one is proudly ignorant of something, there is consequences, which is a nice reminder every once in a while.
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Post by Star Platinum on Jun 5, 2019 20:48:20 GMT
I'm disappointed by this turn of events. His views aside (That pair of tweets were in poor taste) I'd have probably picked up this anthology simply for his name. Roberts has long been one of my favourite writers, having embraced the levity the series is capable of. (I still think his work set in season 17 is the pinnacle of that seasons tone) I do think the interesting point is that this issue has either boiled down to is very much a with us or against us mentality. Gareth is either an unfairly persecuted innocent, a pariah at the altar of social progress or literally worse than hitler, a man claiming that trans individuals are crazy deluded individuals. I personally think the truth is somewhere in the middle. I do think that some of the points raised on his post here are worth talking about. if you raise issues that trans individuals and activists don't agree with you are shunned, as we are seeing now. Forcing an issue like this as they are to Gareth, may result in tolerance, but it also breeds resentment. (There was a good article posted on that in response to this, If I find it I'll post it.) One thing I've found disappointing is while Gareth is keeping his head held high, I've seen several vile posts attacking him, including wishing his death. That I find utterly abhorrent and detrimental to the point that they are trying to make. TL;DR Did Gareth screw up: Yes, absolutely. Are people over reacting (including publisher) Yes. If everyone that ever made off colour remarks or tasteless tweets never got work again, we wouldn't have anyone doing anything
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Post by mark687 on Jun 5, 2019 21:10:41 GMT
Did he Screw up Yes
Was the Reaction Extreme Debatable
Were Random House/ BBC right to make an example of him over better known writers with similar views No they all should be treated equally.
Regards
mark687
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Jun 5, 2019 21:11:52 GMT
I'm disappointed by this turn of events. His views aside (That pair of tweets were in poor taste) I'd have probably picked up this anthology simply for his name. Roberts has long been one of my favourite writers, having embraced the levity the series is capable of. (I still think his work set in season 17 is the pinnacle of that seasons tone) I do think the interesting point is that this issue has either boiled down to is very much a with us or against us mentality. Gareth is either an unfairly persecuted innocent, a pariah at the altar of social progress or literally worse than hitler, a man claiming that trans individuals are crazy deluded individuals. I personally think the truth is somewhere in the middle. I do think that some of the points raised on his post here are worth talking about. if you raise issues that trans individuals and activists don't agree with you are shunned, as we are seeing now. Forcing an issue like this as they are to Gareth, may result in tolerance, but it also breeds resentment. (There was a good article posted on that in response to this, If I find it I'll post it.) One thing I've found disappointing is while Gareth is keeping his head held high, I've seen several vile posts attacking him, including wishing his death. That I find utterly abhorrent and detrimental to the point that they are trying to make. TL;DR Did Gareth screw up: Yes, absolutely. Are people over reacting (including publisher) Yes. If everyone that ever made off colour remarks or tasteless tweets never got work again, we wouldn't have anyone doing anything I think you're not seeing the wood from the trees here: this isn't some throwaway gag at the expense of some overprivileged liberal academic. This about a minority who are, let's not mince words, having a really bad time in the West. One of the most powerful men in the world and his administration has been on a warpath to strip them of their rights, the UK media is scaremongering about 'perverts' and 'kids being forced into sex changes' and the same disengenious faux-intellects on Youtube who want to tell you Jodie is destroying Who are profitting off of non-research into the subject.
Why exactly are we meant to put Gareth's feelings above an entire community enduring very real hardship? Because he wrote some good stories? Why are we not allowing trans people the right to have grievances? If he had said the same thing about black people or women or muslims, would as many people be screaming 'free speech' or 'overreaction'?
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Post by Star Platinum on Jun 5, 2019 21:35:10 GMT
I think you're not seeing the wood from the trees here: this isn't some throwaway gag at the expense of some overprivileged liberal academic. This about a minority who are, let's not mince words, having a really bad time in the West. One of the most powerful men in the world and his administration has been on a warpath to strip them of their rights, the UK media is scaremongering about 'perverts' and 'kids being forced into sex changes' and the same disengenious faux-intellects on Youtube who want to tell you Jodie is destroying Who are profitting off of non-research into the subject.
Why exactly are we meant to put Gareth's feelings above an entire community enduring very real hardship? Because he wrote some good stories? Why are we not allowing trans people the right to have grievances? If he had said the same thing about black people or women or muslims, would as many people be screaming 'free speech' or 'overreaction'?
It's quite possible i'm not seeing the bigger picture here, I'm speaking on a subject that I haven't experienced. Trans individuals have every right to be upset over this. But look at it this way Gareth made One Bad Joke, Two tweets that were particularly tasteless. Now people are trying to destroy his career over it. In contrast, Nick briggs wrote Exile which portrayed a timelords switch to another gender as a punishment, The punishment for suicide. he gets a free pass. Juno Dawson can do this and she gets a free pass. Terrance Dicks has written in a few of his novels where Jo grant is put in a situation where she is the victim of sexual violence (deadly reunion IIRC), and he gets a free pass. What makes them different from Gareth?
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Post by stcoop on Jun 5, 2019 21:52:11 GMT
The difference is this is 2019, not 10 or 20 years ago. (And there were plenty of complaints about the borderline rape fantasies in some of Dicks' last novels.)
If you're not willing to be held accountable for what you say, here's a crazy idea, don't put it up on the internet for the world to read.
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Post by mark687 on Jun 5, 2019 22:01:52 GMT
Basically the point I was trying to make is
Is it Ok to judge and effect someone in their professional life based on their personal beliefs or is it a slippery slope?
And
Should Doctor Who and Sci-Fi be the platform for such debates?
Regards
mark687
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2019 22:17:42 GMT
Roberts has free speech to voice his opinions just as writers are free to voice their free speech and say they dont want to be on a book with Gareth Roberts. Everyone is entitled to free speech but the consequences should be accepted because of that. Its not like hes being areested for his view, its just his doctor who story is not being published (that he is still getting paid for ill point out)
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Post by Star Platinum on Jun 5, 2019 22:17:58 GMT
Basically the point I was trying to make is Is it Ok to judge an affect someone in their professional life based on their personal beliefs or is it a slippery slope? And Should Doctor Who and Sci-Fi be the platform for such debates? Regards mark687 For your first question no. Unless the author deliberately brings that into their writing/output (I don't believe Gareth has, but I could be wrong) If the writer keeps their personal views out of their work, the writer and their work should be judged separately. As for your second question, As much as I want to say no, Yes, but only on the merit and context of the stories. Some of the best Sci fi out there have been allegories for real world issues. Sci fi lets us take an issue and disguise it in metaphor, allowing the author to bring attention to it discreetly. Much like the Daleks was Terry Nations essay on the futility of nuclear war, Or TNG's Measure of a man was a treatise on slavery. Sci fi can examine difficult concepts at arms length, and is one of the few genres that can do so.
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Post by subconiandreamer on Jun 5, 2019 22:21:52 GMT
I guess I shouldn't be surprised to see "bigotry is actually just different opinions, innit?" claptrap here
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Post by Digi on Jun 5, 2019 22:53:32 GMT
Now correct me if I’m wrong, but BBC Books is a commercial offshoot of the BBC. This wouldn’t actually make them government agencies. Mostly correct, yeah: BBC Books is a corporation that's majority-owned and managed by Penguin Random House. Despite the name, BBC is only a minority stakeholder. For my two cents, this is free speech, but not in the way Roberts thinks. Like everyone else, he has a right to freedom of speech and expression. What he seems to have failed to grasp, however, is that "freedom of speech" does not mean "freedom from consequences." BBC Books is a company, whose sole interest is in making a profit. If they've determined that including his work in one of their products would damage their sales, they are perfectly within their rights to dump him. That would be one of the other core tenets of western civilization - free enterprise. Actions have consequences. That's all there is to it. ( And he still got paid for his time and effort)
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Jun 5, 2019 22:56:45 GMT
It's quite possible i'm not seeing the bigger picture here, I'm speaking on a subject that I haven't experienced. Trans individuals have every right to be upset over this. But look at it this way Gareth made One Bad Joke, Two tweets that were particularly tasteless. Now people are trying to destroy his career over it. In contrast, Nick briggs wrote Exile which portrayed a timelords switch to another gender as a punishment, The punishment for suicide. he gets a free pass. Juno Dawson can do this and she gets a free pass. Terrance Dicks has written in a few of his novels where Jo grant is put in a situation where she is the victim of sexual violence (deadly reunion IIRC), and he gets a free pass. What makes them different from Gareth? Gareth Jones has made more than a few comments about this. As for the other writers you mention, I’d say that the same sort of context has been applied to them: Exile has been panned roundly in a lot of sectors and guess what? Nothing he’s written since then has been like it. Terrance Dicks has always written carefully about violence in his stories (compare the televised ending of The Sunmakers to his novelisation of it) and I’m guessing his audience would do the same.
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Post by muckypup on Jun 5, 2019 23:35:39 GMT
Yet again it’s trial by the mob!
Which is far worse.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2019 0:46:23 GMT
Roberts himself totally misconstrues people’s problems with him as one or two “dodgy tweets” when really he’s been relentless in attacking trans people for things that haven’t happened. But that doesn’t matter, because at the end of his lovely Medium thinkpiece he really, unambiguously just told everybody his transphobic views. Gareth can say whatever the f*ck he likes, but if other writers aren’t comfortable being associated with him and if potential readers have been turned off a product because of the things he says, then BBC Books are well within their rights to drop him. He hasn’t had anything published by them since 2012, mind you, so I doubt this’ll put him out on the street.
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