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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2019 15:49:47 GMT
I couldn't find a thread specifically about this, although of course there are many comments in the various Time War releases threads. But what do people think about the Time War & how it is been used by Big Finish across all the related releases? Having finished Time War 3 I'm a bit conflicted. Generally thinking it was a good idea used as a backdrop to some 8th Doctor adventures but on reflection it seems that the stories have little that makes them stand out against other 8 Doctor releases, including how the 8th Doctor is written. There are some good ideas but a lot of them have been wasted or not realised to their full potential.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2019 15:58:12 GMT
I think the problem with the Time War is that it was far too big in scope to effectively be captured both on screen and in audio. When I look at some releases such as ‘The Conscript’ the Time War seems to always come across as if it were just the Great War or the Second World War just with murderous cyborgs.
Maybe I’m just complaining but I feel like it would just have been better left unseen. As some nameless horror which cannot begin to be comprehended by us mortal life forms.
Thanks for starting this discussion by the way. I think it’s a fascinating topic to talk about.
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Post by elkawho on Sept 22, 2019 16:04:20 GMT
I'm conflicted as well. I never thought that it was a good idea to go into the Time War in any medium because it would only be diminished from what it was in my head during the RTD era, but I also knew that it was inevitable. I think there have been some really good stories, and then some that are kind of generic. I enjoyed a lot of what they did with it during the War Doctor releases. My biggest problem is that I'm one of those people who still doesn't believe that we needed a War Doctor. (No matter how much I love John Hurt. See, conflicted.) To me, the Time War was THAT bad, THAT horrible that is could cause 8 to do what he did, and then force a regeneration because of the guilt. That was what I always thought until Night of The Doctor. So, just that 7 minute story alone brought the severity of the War down for me (great seeing 8 on screen, however.)
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Post by tuigirl on Sept 22, 2019 17:07:03 GMT
I couldn't find a thread specifically about this, although of course there are many comments in the various Time War releases threads. But what do people think about the Time War & how it is been used by Big Finish across all the related releases? Having finished Time War 3 I'm a bit conflicted. Generally thinking it was a good idea used as a backdrop to some 8th Doctor adventures but on reflection it seems that the stories have little that makes them stand out against other 8 Doctor releases, including how the 8th Doctor is written. There are some good ideas but a lot of them have been wasted or not realised to their full potential. I totally agree with you that the Time War 8th Doctor stories are not as gripping and engaging as the main 8th Doctor series is (which is, everyone will know by now, my favorite).
I just miss a certain spark, so it does not really catch with me in the same way. And I cannot even put my finger on what the issue is exactly. Is it the companion? Is it the way the Doctor is written? Or is it the type of stories? Or all of these taken together?
Yes, the Time War is a great backdrop, but as you say, that is all it is.
The stories do not come across as particularly special. I do however adore Planet of the Ogrons, which, to be honest, could have also worked as a normal story in the normal series just a bit along the line to accommodate the Twelve.
I also was not particularly sold on the War Doctor series. John Hurt was great and I am fine with going along with the idea of the War Doctor. But the stories themselves... most of them are not that special. And I still think Infernal Devices is the best of the lot.
However, I think the War Master releases have been exceptional. They are by far the best range coming out of this setting and it is the perfect way to set up a series centered on a psychopathic villain. The Master also works much better under these conditions and it is so much more believable that the Time Lords let him rampage along when he is working for them as some kind of secret weapon. Plus, Sir Derek is great.
The Time War also got me into Gallifrey and I certainly liked the episodes with Brax and Ace and the Master and Leela. And it is kind of chilling to listen to the fall from grace for the Time Lords, how the raving madman Rassilon leads them on into damnation. These stories are not in my top 10 favorites, but they are pretty good and if I am honest, overall, I rate the two Gallifrey Time War releases higher than the three 8th Doctor ones.
I also got the impression the Time War releases got much better in the past couple of years compared to the timid first steps with the War Doctor.
Lies in Ruins chilled me to the bone and gave me a couple of sleepless nights. Lies in Ruins is exactly how I imagined the Doctor would become after witnessing the war for some time. The 8th Doctor we see in his own Time War range is still much too close to the usual one, to be honest, I cannot tell much difference, which is surprising and maybe a bit lazy. They got it down a bit better in the Rage of the Time Lords, and I really enjoyed how the Master got the better of the Doctor in that story.
That was a wonderful change of pace.
In the Time War, I think we should see the Doctor lose and despair much more often. It would be more believable and would add to the drama and in any case, we all know how the story ends for the 8th Doctor!
I agree with others in this thread that the Time War can never be shown in such a way as to match the description of a conflict of unimaginable horrors.
Certainly the Time Lords and Daleks going pew,pew at each other is neither very gripping nor does it strike any terror in my heart. I also find that common war stories do get pretty samey after a while.
But I guess the Time War is only ever going to be as great as the writers are able to create it for us. And while we had some pretty amazing stories...
I am sad to say, the majority, is just a very good average.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2019 17:24:02 GMT
One of the problems is the War Doctor. Hurt is great but the way his character is written & the stories themselves don't have that dark edge or feel like they are spiraling downwards towards the inevitable act he will commit. He's too much like a slightly grumpier, more misanthropic version of the character we know. It was almost like BF were afraid to go too dark with him. I enjoyed them when they were released but I think that's more to do with getting to hear Hurt. Not sure if I'd listen to them again.
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Post by cwm on Sept 22, 2019 17:30:06 GMT
One of the problems is the War Doctor. Hurt is great but the way his character is written & the stories themselves don't have that dark edge or feel like they are spiraling downwards towards the inevitable act he will commit. He's too much like a slightly grumpier, more misanthropic version of the character we know. It was almost like BF were afraid to go too dark with him. I enjoyed them when they were released but I think that's more to do with getting to hear Hurt. Not sure if I'd listen to them again. I wonder if the BBC were reluctant to have the Doctor do anything too un-Doctorish, even that incarnation.
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Post by tuigirl on Sept 22, 2019 17:39:06 GMT
One of the problems is the War Doctor. Hurt is great but the way his character is written & the stories themselves don't have that dark edge or feel like they are spiraling downwards towards the inevitable act he will commit. He's too much like a slightly grumpier, more misanthropic version of the character we know. It was almost like BF were afraid to go too dark with him. I enjoyed them when they were released but I think that's more to do with getting to hear Hurt. Not sure if I'd listen to them again. Yeah, the authors have said exactly this. I remember complaining about the way the War Doctor was written a few months back and Mr. Dorney telling me that it was the only way they could justify the character to behave since if he had really committed atrocities on a daily basis, the other Doctors would never ever have forgiven him for that. And that this was also not what the character was about. However, when I look back at stories like Remembrance of the Daleks or any of the last 7th Doctor stories, really, the 7th Doctor has been an utter inhumane and cruel bastard and even the grumpy cuddly old War Doctor would have been ashamed of him.
Even the description of the Doctor being to busy blowing up planets than being able to have fun, is NOT of the War Doctor, funnily enough. But of cute old Sylvester's Doctor.
So yes, I still think the characterization of the War Doctor is "slightly" off.
Sorry Mr. Dorney. I understand what you say and I get what the writers were getting at and I respect the decision.
However, looking at a story like "Lies in Ruins", it shows me that this way of writing is slowly cracking at the edges. The darkness is slowly seeping in.
I am so bold as to say, back in the day of the War Doctor stories, they would never have dared to have planned an episode like that. Yes, they have maybe kept this back for the pure shock value of presenting it for the anniversary.
However...
I do love McGann, but just imagine what John Hurt could have done with dark material like that.
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Post by elkawho on Sept 22, 2019 17:41:17 GMT
One of the problems is the War Doctor. Hurt is great but the way his character is written & the stories themselves don't have that dark edge or feel like they are spiraling downwards towards the inevitable act he will commit. He's too much like a slightly grumpier, more misanthropic version of the character we know. It was almost like BF were afraid to go too dark with him. I enjoyed them when they were released but I think that's more to do with getting to hear Hurt. Not sure if I'd listen to them again. i've listened them a couple of time, but that is mostly to hear Hurt and Jacqueline Pearce together. I think they sparkle and have so much chemistry.
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Post by tuigirl on Sept 22, 2019 17:43:18 GMT
One of the problems is the War Doctor. Hurt is great but the way his character is written & the stories themselves don't have that dark edge or feel like they are spiraling downwards towards the inevitable act he will commit. He's too much like a slightly grumpier, more misanthropic version of the character we know. It was almost like BF were afraid to go too dark with him. I enjoyed them when they were released but I think that's more to do with getting to hear Hurt. Not sure if I'd listen to them again. i've listened them a couple of time, but that is mostly to hear Hurt and Jacqueline Pearce together. I think they sparkle and have so much chemistry. Yes, that is the best part of the War Doctor stories. One reason why I like Infernal Devices so much, Olistra having the Doctor on a leash...
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Post by sherlock on Sept 22, 2019 17:53:11 GMT
The Gallifrey and War Master Time War material is really where the party’s at. The Eighth Doctor stuff... I dunno. There are good stories and concepts in them, but as a whole they just feel like they pull their punches. The Time War should be one of the most harrowing periods of the Doctor’s life, but it just doesn’t feel like that.
The Eighth Doctor range is odd as the Doctor seems just as happy as in the pre-Time War ongoing stories and Bliss seems totally untouched emotionally. She loses her family early in the series, but you wouldn’t really know that from how she’s characterised. It just feels like the two of them are breezing through the War almost unaffected by its events. It’s odd as Lies in Ruins proved they are willing to go to really bleak places with the Eighth Doctor’s character, but for some reason just are choosing not to.
I don’t mind comedy stories such as Planet of the Ogrons being in the mix, but for the most part the range seems to stick to the usual tone of Doctor Who stories which feels a bit off under the Time War tagline. I kinda want them to properly put the eighth Doctor through the wringer.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2019 18:07:48 GMT
The Gallifrey and War Master Time War material is really where the party’s at. The Eighth Doctor stuff... I dunno. There are good stories and concepts in them, but as a whole they just feel like they pull their punches. The Time War should be one of the most harrowing periods of the Doctor’s life, but it just doesn’t feel like that. The Eighth Doctor range is odd as the Doctor seems just as happy as in the pre-Time War ongoing stories and Bliss seems totally untouched emotionally. She loses her family early in the series, but you wouldn’t really know that from how she’s characterised. It just feels like the two of them are breezing through the War almost unaffected by its events. It’s odd as Lies in Ruins proved they are willing to go to really bleak places with the Eighth Doctor’s character, but for some reason just are choosing not to. I don’t mind comedy stories such as Planet of the Ogrons being in the mix, but for the most part the range seems to stick to the usual tone of Doctor Who stories which feels a bit off under the Time War tagline. I kinda want them to properly put the eighth Doctor through the wringer. I've never listened to the Gallifrey Time War stuff. I tried one of the Gallifrey range, Intervention Earth, but didn't enjoy it. The first War Master release, Only the Good, was great but didn't enjoy the second one. I agree 100% about the character of 8 & Bliss throughout this series so far, they don't act like they are suffering emotionally from any effects of the war happening all around them. I wonder if BF felt they couldn't maintain a bleak tone throughout these boxsets. But if not why bother? Or at least have an arc in each one either thematically or dramatically.
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Post by tuigirl on Sept 22, 2019 18:20:29 GMT
The Gallifrey and War Master Time War material is really where the party’s at. The Eighth Doctor stuff... I dunno. There are good stories and concepts in them, but as a whole they just feel like they pull their punches. The Time War should be one of the most harrowing periods of the Doctor’s life, but it just doesn’t feel like that. The Eighth Doctor range is odd as the Doctor seems just as happy as in the pre-Time War ongoing stories and Bliss seems totally untouched emotionally. She loses her family early in the series, but you wouldn’t really know that from how she’s characterised. It just feels like the two of them are breezing through the War almost unaffected by its events. It’s odd as Lies in Ruins proved they are willing to go to really bleak places with the Eighth Doctor’s character, but for some reason just are choosing not to. I don’t mind comedy stories such as Planet of the Ogrons being in the mix, but for the most part the range seems to stick to the usual tone of Doctor Who stories which feels a bit off under the Time War tagline. I kinda want them to properly put the eighth Doctor through the wringer. I've never listened to the Gallifrey Time War stuff. I tried one of the Gallifrey range, Intervention Earth, but didn't enjoy it. The first War Master release, Only the Good, was great but didn't enjoy the second one. I agree 100% about the character of 8 & Bliss throughout this series so far, they don't act like they are suffering emotionally from any effects of the war happening all around them. I wonder if BF felt they couldn't maintain a bleak tone throughout these boxsets. But if not why bother? Or at least have an arc in each one either thematically or dramatically. I am with you on that one.
One reason I enjoyed Rage of the Time Lords so much was because the Doctor lost to the Master and got his behind kicked several times. Therefore I still have hope that the next releases continue along these lines, because it now seems possible that the Doctor can get beaten and can also break down completely in despair (Lies in Ruins).
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Post by shallacatop on Sept 22, 2019 19:15:52 GMT
I think, on the whole, the Time War has been well portrayed and served by Big Finish. I don’t expect it to be constantly bleak or constantly high concept. It should be varied like any other war. Different battles in different locations, with different weapons and parties involved. Some stories should explore the fallout, some should show those who benefit from the Time War and use it to their advantage.
I love the political intrigue of Gallifrey and how the Time War affects them within the Citadel. I love the bleakness of the War Master and how the Time War plays to the characters strengths and how involvement from Gallifrey links in with that.
I find the War Doctor series to be rich and varied with two excellent performances from its leads: the legendary John Hurt and Jacqueline Pearce. It’s a range that hits the Time War nail on the head for me. We have a set that details the Doctor’s PTSD, with a Dalek b-movie that ends in a tough choice. We have a set that shows a high concept side to the Time War. We have a set that deals with the extra parties involved and how they benefit from the war. Finally, we have a set that deals directly with the casualties of the Time War and it’s impact is close to home for the Doctor. The War Doctor isn’t an all out bastard, no, but I don’t think that’s the point. He’s trying to do the best in the worst circumstances, constantly beaten down and war torn.
I think the weakest link is the ongoing Eighth Doctor series. I’ll just straight up copy and paste a couple of posts I made recently about it:
In a way, it tries to have its cake and eat it, balancing itself between a more relaxed Doctor than in Dark Eyes, Doom Coalition & Ravenous, with some lighter stories to boot, but also tries to constantly put the Doctor in the midst of the Time War. In a strange way, I think the series should have perhaps distanced itself from the Time War a little. Have one or two Time War stories or elements a set, but also go for those standalone, fun and care free stories that hark back to the Lucie or Charley days. After all, this is a Doctor who is very much against fighting in the Time War, but is aware of its ongoing presence. As it stands, it tries to be light in a Time War environment, with constant dealings with Gallifrey, or near misses from the Daleks. I think that restricts this range a little, with its more laid back take on the Doctor. If it was a more war weary and ravaged Eighth Doctor, like in Rage of the Time Lords or Lie of Ruins, then I think a heavy Time War range would suit better.
I think Starship of Theseus nailed the balance perfectly, albeit in the wrong order, which I suppose is suitably Time War-esque! What I mean is that you could’ve had three adventures with the Doctor and Emma, exploring the universe and being carefree. This carries on into Theseus and it plays out as is, with the Time War and the Daleks catching up with the Doctor, erasing his companion and producing a new one that’s come direct from the fractured timelines. That’s the sort of set which would be more appropriate for the way they’re portraying this range. The Time War is a presence the Doctor is aware of and actively avoiding, but it’s always lurking round the corner. An arc, of sorts.
Similarly, Planet of the Ogrons and The Famished Lands have some great links to the Time War and are laid back in style and they work pretty well with how the range is crafted. They’d be good standout Time War stories amongst other adventures.
On the whole, the Time War at Big Finish isn’t all just Time Lords vs Daleks. And it’s all the more better for it. I do wish they’d cross over a little more, though.
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Post by xlozdob on Sept 22, 2019 21:59:21 GMT
I think the problem is that they threw the 8th Doctor into the Time War too quickly. They should have maybe started with a boxset of Sheena. And have Starship of Theseus be the last story of that one. Then bring in Bliss and have her character arc play out from the beginning. And by the last boxset, once he's lost her, have his Lies in Ruins characterisation start to bloom. Then have the solo adventures follow on from that (CDNM and maybe the Shor Trips) and finally have Lies in Ruins. Then another series of maybe four maybe less boxsets showing him slowly recovering and returning to the more optimistic Doctor from Nigh of the Doctor.
Maybe this second batch could have been the one to have more connections with the other ranges, which is very much needed. We need more synergy between the Gallifrey, War Doctor, War Master and Eight Doctor ranges. Mainly because the two Doctor-centric ones seem to be a different continuity (different supporting characters, stories) to the spinoffs. The first volumes of Gallifrey and War Master were the right way to do it. They should have been connected to the Starship finale of the 1st Eighth Doctor boxset I proposed. Then someone like Romana, Narvin or Rassilon should have appeared in the next Eight Doctor one and Ollistra in the second Gallifrey one. Have this first batch, as I say, be more Gallifrey-esque in terms of more dealing with setting up the Time War, sort of like the EDAs. Then by the 4th boxset everything escalates incredibly and we have the breaking point of the Doctor. And I think this should've worked perfectly with the release schedule they've had.
But ultimately, yes, the DW Time War stories have been very much like the rest of Doctor Who, so that makes them feel generic and bland, even if they're not (as far as I'm aware, I've not heard all of them). And that may be in part, because of them being afraid of not getting approved, or the Beeb actively forcing them to write the Doctors like this (especially War, Eight as I propose him shouldn't have been a problem, but War should have been more like 7 on steroids and aiding the Time Lords less reluctantly, even if he had had headbutting moments with Ollistra, until he stops and realises "No More!". Right now, he's just "one more Doctor", and why many people don't see the point to him. He should've been so strongly written no one even doubts why he should exist. But I digress), but most importantly, the problems stem from the different ranges being managed by different people. The Eighth Doctor range, afaik, is produced by the Eighth Doctor producers, but, while they should have some input and be part of the writers' room, ultimate creative control should have been given to the same people as the other ranges, namely Scott Handcock. That way the connections could have been seamless, and we could have had an overall much better and connective Time War arc for the Doctor and the other main players.
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Post by Ela on Sept 22, 2019 22:24:46 GMT
One of the problems is the War Doctor. Hurt is great but the way his character is written & the stories themselves don't have that dark edge or feel like they are spiraling downwards towards the inevitable act he will commit. He's too much like a slightly grumpier, more misanthropic version of the character we know. It was almost like BF were afraid to go too dark with him. I enjoyed them when they were released but I think that's more to do with getting to hear Hurt. Not sure if I'd listen to them again. i've listened them a couple of time, but that is mostly to hear Hurt and Jacqueline Pearce together. I think they sparkle and have so much chemistry. I love hearing John Hurt and Jacqueline Pearce together.
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Post by barnabaslives on Sept 22, 2019 22:45:38 GMT
The Eighth Doctor range is odd as the Doctor seems just as happy as in the pre-Time War ongoing stories and Bliss seems totally untouched emotionally. She loses her family early in the series, but you wouldn’t really know that from how she’s characterised. It just feels like the two of them are breezing through the War almost unaffected by its events. It’s odd as Lies in Ruins proved they are willing to go to really bleak places with the Eighth Doctor’s character, but for some reason just are choosing not to. I don’t mind comedy stories such as Planet of the Ogrons being in the mix, but for the most part the range seems to stick to the usual tone of Doctor Who stories which feels a bit off under the Time War tagline. Much agreed, especially with the bolded remark. I don't know if I even care for the tone to get very dark, but if it's going to try to be it does seems like the characters should respond accordingly. I suppose I still think there's a lot that can be done with The Doctor having less direct involvement in accordance with his reluctance, be it situations that make it hard to keep a distance, or undermining the Daleks' latest OTT scheme (or Gallifrey's), or interacting with others caught up in the scheme of things. Even if things come down to The Doctor in the final hours, it seems like there would be plenty of parties with an active stake in something on the scale of the Time War who'd have stories to lend to the mix.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2019 8:38:23 GMT
I always thought the stories would certainly not lead very far being limited by what happened in the HURT Doctor saga. The War Master series seems to be the best of the bunch but I have relistened to the others and they aren’t as bad as I predicted. Yes the WAR was alluded to being a very very dark time in the TV series but did we really experience that darkness on audio?I certainly don’t think we did. Human wars seem much darker,but do we really want to go into that territory?If there was going to be darkness it would have occurred in Hurts series but alas. I like what BF have tried to do but feel they are very BOXED IN and it’s time to let the Time War go preferably in style The only real figure not included in the Time War saga is the RANI and I figured she would be in her element in a war torn,carcass ridden battlefield free to commit atrocities in pursuit of her aims.I dont think she will be included in the run.They would have to give stronger material to Siobahn Redmond than her last adventures. On a side note -was the Rani always in League with the Daleks I certainly think her Tardis console is very Dalek designed and sucker pad friendly?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2019 19:13:43 GMT
The Rani, interesting. I wonder if it would have been better to have boxsets featuring some of Doctor Who's rogues gallery dealing with the Time War? I really enjoyed The War Valeyard, would have been nice to have his character cameoing in all of that boxset as a much needed story arc.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2019 19:22:51 GMT
The Rani, interesting. I wonder if it would have been better to have boxsets featuring some of Doctor Who's rogues gallery dealing with the Time War? I really enjoyed The War Valeyard, would have been nice to have his character cameoing in all of that boxset as a much needed story arc. Now that’s a good idea. Would make a great deal of sense as well for the Time Lords to recruit or otherwise use the services of their most vile of renegades. It would further display just how far they have fallen and that depths they are willing to go to. Or even a few ‘Tales of New Earth’ esque stories where we examine the fallout the Time War has had on otherwise unsuspecting planets and civilisations. If done right, you don’t even need to include the Time Lords or the Daleks.
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Post by tuigirl on Sept 23, 2019 19:24:43 GMT
The Rani, interesting. I wonder if it would have been better to have boxsets featuring some of Doctor Who's rogues gallery dealing with the Time War? I really enjoyed The War Valeyard, would have been nice to have his character cameoing in all of that boxset as a much needed story arc. I somehow have the feeling we might not have seen the end of the Time War releases with the end of the current running 4 box set series.
So therefore a "rogue gallery story line" (great idea by the way) might not be off the table. Knowing Big Finish, I am even predicting that we might get a special finale set bringing all the ranges together.
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