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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2019 21:16:49 GMT
I recently listened to all the 8th Doctor Time War plays and it’s easily the weakest collection of 8th Doctor audios. The best ones are The Starship of the Theseus and The Rage of the Time Lords, but most of them fall into a fairly familiar pattern of bland science fiction space opera that just doesn’t convey the kind of cosmic horror implied by the Tenth Doctor’s haunted reminiscences on TV. Worst of the lot is The Conscript which plays the Time War for comedy in an entirely misjudged way that kicks out any credibility from under the series. I also feel like Bliss is basically Flip - which just doesn’t work for the Time War. She sounds far too unbothered about the horror, and I can’t really understand what the producers are thinking. Sorry - this is a bit of a downer but I have found on relistening these stories to be a real disappointment and well below what we know Big Finish can do. Some valid points especially about Bliss. I don't blame the actor, she is good in Star Cops, it's how she is written. On reflection I do think this series is a let down with only a couple of decent episodes. As you say, The Conscript is awful & it really highlights what for me is a lack of imagination on the part of BF. They are often treating the Time War too literally.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2019 21:19:09 GMT
I have this strange vision of you hiking,walking ,working ,swimming,doing housework with headphones on a book in one hand,a graphic novel in the other. you multi tasker you 😉 Yeah.... nah. Sorry, not one multitasking gene in my DNA makeup. Maybe you need the help of a genetic modifier? lol
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2019 21:21:28 GMT
I recently listened to all the 8th Doctor Time War plays and it’s easily the weakest collection of 8th Doctor audios. The best ones are The Starship of the Theseus and The Rage of the Time Lords, but most of them fall into a fairly familiar pattern of bland science fiction space opera that just doesn’t convey the kind of cosmic horror implied by the Tenth Doctor’s haunted reminiscences on TV. Worst of the lot is The Conscript which plays the Time War for comedy in an entirely misjudged way that kicks out any credibility from under the series. I also feel like Bliss is basically Flip - which just doesn’t work for the Time War. She sounds far too unbothered about the horror, and I can’t really understand what the producers are thinking. Sorry - this is a bit of a downer but I have found on relistening these stories to be a real disappointment and well below what we know Big Finish can do. I do question why he even has a constant companion at this point. Surely it would make sense if he were going it alone, refusing to expose any more innocents to the horrors of the Time War. You could even say that the constant interference from his fellow Time Lords and their attempts at recruiting him to their cause is foreshadowing of his next incarnation where he begrudgingly accepts his sense of duty. Yes. He is supposed to be reluctant, trying to avoid the war. So why let someone else tag along with him? The more I think about it the more I think BF have totally misjudged this idea. They could have been so much more daring.
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Post by elkawho on Sept 25, 2019 3:00:26 GMT
I do question why he even has a constant companion at this point. Surely it would make sense if he were going it alone, refusing to expose any more innocents to the horrors of the Time War. You could even say that the constant interference from his fellow Time Lords and their attempts at recruiting him to their cause is foreshadowing of his next incarnation where he begrudgingly accepts his sense of duty. Yes. He is supposed to be reluctant, trying to avoid the war. So why let someone else tag along with him? The more I think about it the more I think BF have totally misjudged this idea. They could have been so much more daring. Hell, they were more daring in the Divergent Universe.
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Post by tuigirl on Sept 25, 2019 7:34:53 GMT
I recently listened to all the 8th Doctor Time War plays and it’s easily the weakest collection of 8th Doctor audios. The best ones are The Starship of the Theseus and The Rage of the Time Lords, but most of them fall into a fairly familiar pattern of bland science fiction space opera that just doesn’t convey the kind of cosmic horror implied by the Tenth Doctor’s haunted reminiscences on TV. Worst of the lot is The Conscript which plays the Time War for comedy in an entirely misjudged way that kicks out any credibility from under the series. I also feel like Bliss is basically Flip - which just doesn’t work for the Time War. She sounds far too unbothered about the horror, and I can’t really understand what the producers are thinking. Sorry - this is a bit of a downer but I have found on relistening these stories to be a real disappointment and well below what we know Big Finish can do. You are not a downer.
The 8th Doctor Time War sets just are not as good as the other Time War ranges or his current series of box sets.
Yes, totally agree on the Conscript. That was a big misstep in tone.
Not sure I agree that Bliss is similar to Flip.... however, you are right, she is a bit too "flat" considering all the horrors she is experiencing.
I think what the 8th Doctor Time War series needs is some deep character work and raw emotions and CONSEQUENCES. As much as I like the comedy episodes and {Spoiler} the Doctor getting high and dancing around with green monkeys,
none of these boxsets have made a real impact yet and they are just plotting along.
I think this is why Lies in Ruins and Rage of the Time Lords work so well and really have shock value, because they dare to go a bit deeper.
And, you might be onto something, there is the fact that in these, Bliss is absent...
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Post by tuigirl on Sept 25, 2019 7:39:54 GMT
I recently listened to all the 8th Doctor Time War plays and it’s easily the weakest collection of 8th Doctor audios. The best ones are The Starship of the Theseus and The Rage of the Time Lords, but most of them fall into a fairly familiar pattern of bland science fiction space opera that just doesn’t convey the kind of cosmic horror implied by the Tenth Doctor’s haunted reminiscences on TV. Worst of the lot is The Conscript which plays the Time War for comedy in an entirely misjudged way that kicks out any credibility from under the series. I also feel like Bliss is basically Flip - which just doesn’t work for the Time War. She sounds far too unbothered about the horror, and I can’t really understand what the producers are thinking. Sorry - this is a bit of a downer but I have found on relistening these stories to be a real disappointment and well below what we know Big Finish can do. I do question why he even has a constant companion at this point. Surely it would make sense if he were going it alone, refusing to expose any more innocents to the horrors of the Time War. You could even say that the constant interference from his fellow Time Lords and their attempts at recruiting him to their cause is foreshadowing of his next incarnation where he begrudgingly accepts his sense of duty. Well, you could argue that nowhere is save.
And Bliss' planet got wiped out, so it was indeed a bit safer in the TARDIS.
As for the companion, I am pretty sure we will see the demise of Bliss come the next box set. But different from, let's say Live from the current 8th Doctor series (who might or might not die in the next set), I am not really sure I care.
I am also not sure why her death would make a bigger impact on the 8th Doctor than the death of his other (more beloved) companions.
But maybe that will lead into a few deeper stories with more raw emotion?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2019 9:25:02 GMT
I do question why he even has a constant companion at this point. Surely it would make sense if he were going it alone, refusing to expose any more innocents to the horrors of the Time War. You could even say that the constant interference from his fellow Time Lords and their attempts at recruiting him to their cause is foreshadowing of his next incarnation where he begrudgingly accepts his sense of duty. Well, you could argue that nowhere is save.
And Bliss' planet got wiped out, so it was indeed a bit safer in the TARDIS.
As for the companion, I am pretty sure we will see the demise of Bliss come the next box set. But different from, let's say Live from the current 8th Doctor series (who might or might not die in the next set), I am not really sure I care.
I am also not sure why her death would make a bigger impact on the 8th Doctor than the death of his other (more beloved) companions.
But maybe that will lead into a few deeper stories with more raw emotion?
Am not sure the death of one companion would lead to a change in the Doctor? Surely any sane man would be affected by the devastation being caused and do anything to intervene,especially if he knew he could make a difference but there is cowardice in us all in face of things we think aren’t really our problems,the Doctor is no different has he ever admitted his cowardice? i know some people disagree but I think episodes calling to account those parties involved would be gripping story telling.We are talking a Universal conflict that affected so many races and Times-even if the whole conflict was brought to account by those other Time Travelling Capable races we hear about.
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Sept 25, 2019 12:08:51 GMT
I thought they ran away in Fear at the consequences of this Time War. I still want to see a story around the Fall of the Crucible Yeah, that'd be cool. What would make the Master so terrified as to flee to Utopia? You've got me to crack open my old copy of the 2006 Annual. Last thing I do before I head to sleep, old thing's covered in dust. Looks like the passage was: It makes me wonder what a Time War story with Vortis might look like...? Also, here's a very interesting tidbit for all. We don't often get to hear about the other conflicts that came before, but: For some reason ive always picture the Crucible as this giant, constantly shifting structure. Almost like Leviathan in Hellraiser 2 maybe. And one scene i had in my head was The Master and a few other Time Lords trying to escape its fall, running down its outside as it moves and shifts. And its interesting how in previous Time Wars, The Time Lords came in to end it, but in one they started it all went to hell
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2019 12:45:30 GMT
Well, you could argue that nowhere is save.
And Bliss' planet got wiped out, so it was indeed a bit safer in the TARDIS.
As for the companion, I am pretty sure we will see the demise of Bliss come the next box set. But different from, let's say Live from the current 8th Doctor series (who might or might not die in the next set), I am not really sure I care.
I am also not sure why her death would make a bigger impact on the 8th Doctor than the death of his other (more beloved) companions.
But maybe that will lead into a few deeper stories with more raw emotion?
Am not sure the death of one companion would lead to a change in the Doctor? Surely any sane man would be affected by the devastation being caused and do anything to intervene,especially if he knew he could make a difference but there is cowardice in us all in face of things we think aren’t really our problems,the Doctor is no different has he ever admitted his cowardice? i know some people disagree but I think episodes calling to account those parties involved would be gripping story telling.We are talking a Universal conflict that affected so many races and Times-even if the whole conflict was brought to account by those other Time Travelling Capable races we hear about. I think it'd depend on the incarnation and what came with the character death. The Sixth Doctor, for instance, was so affected by (what he recalled of) Peri's fate, in addition to the events of Trial, that we saw a marked change in his personality. So much so, that he became a recluse and spent quite a lot of time trying to figure out who he was again. The Eighth Doctor lost a lot of people after To the Death and that pushed him to a point where without outside intervention, he'd have driven himself to the Big Crunch. Yeah, that'd be cool. What would make the Master so terrified as to flee to Utopia? You've got me to crack open my old copy of the 2006 Annual. Last thing I do before I head to sleep, old thing's covered in dust. Looks like the passage was: It makes me wonder what a Time War story with Vortis might look like...? Also, here's a very interesting tidbit for all. We don't often get to hear about the other conflicts that came before, but: For some reason ive always picture the Crucible as this giant, constantly shifting structure. Almost like Leviathan in Hellraiser 2 maybe. And one scene i had in my head was The Master and a few other Time Lords trying to escape its fall, running down its outside as it moves and shifts. And its interesting how in previous Time Wars, The Time Lords came in to end it, but in one they started it all went to hell Ooh, that's a good image. Like a hungry, malevolent Dark Tower. A... thing, that trawls in matter from the multiverse. Almost like the reverse of a CVE, it's a funnel for extraordinary power where Time in its rawest element is refined to create whatever the Time Lords require for their War. Something that TARDISes speak of in fearful, hushed tones. And then the Daleks get it. Yeah, it makes you kind of wonder what they did to finish those two prior wars. The Eternals in Enlightenment seem to have completely forgotten that the Time Lords exist and we know next to nothing about the Halldons or the Omnicraven. (I wonder if it was still back in the days of the Demat Gun?) As sherlock mentioned, we know little about how the Time Lords operated back when they had their Empire after their revolt against the Pythia. By the Doctor's time, circa his second incarnation, Gallifrey had a fraternal connection with the Third Zoners (Dastari and his lot), which the Zoners were disappointed didn't continue. The collapse of the Minyans led to their non-interference policy, which they had a direct hand in... Maybe the Time Lords weren't considered a custodial race then, so much as paladin-like defenders? They were who you called to solve an insoluble problem. Fixers. When the Last Great Time War came, they hadn't properly engaged with the wider cosmos in several millennia, so they started off at a fumble. Against an adversary like the Daleks, who'd been fighting since their creation and never stopped, they'd be at a serious disadvantage.
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Post by sherlock on Sept 25, 2019 15:21:35 GMT
Am not sure the death of one companion would lead to a change in the Doctor? I think it'd depend on the incarnation and what came with the character death. The Sixth Doctor, for instance, was so affected by (what he recalled of) Peri's fate, in addition to the events of Trial, that we saw a marked change in his personality. So much so, that he became a recluse and spent quite a lot of time trying to figure out who he was again. The Eighth Doctor lost a lot of people after To the Death and that pushed him to a point where without outside intervention, he'd have driven himself to the Big Crunch. For some reason ive always picture the Crucible as this giant, constantly shifting structure. Almost like Leviathan in Hellraiser 2 maybe. And one scene i had in my head was The Master and a few other Time Lords trying to escape its fall, running down its outside as it moves and shifts. And its interesting how in previous Time Wars, The Time Lords came in to end it, but in one they started it all went to hell Ooh, that's a good image. Like a hungry, malevolent Dark Tower. A... thing, that trawls in matter from the multiverse. Almost like the reverse of a CVE, it's a funnel for extraordinary power where Time in its rawest element is refined to create whatever the Time Lords require for their War. Something that TARDISes speak of in fearful, hushed tones. And then the Daleks get it. Yeah, it makes you kind of wonder what they did to finish those two prior wars. The Eternals in Enlightenment seem to have completely forgotten that the Time Lords exist and we know next to nothing about the Halldons or the Omnicraven. (I wonder if it was still back in the days of the Demat Gun?) As sherlock mentioned, we know little about how the Time Lords operated back when they had their Empire after their revolt against the Pythia. By the Doctor's time, circa his second incarnation, Gallifrey had a fraternal connection with the Third Zoners (Dastari and his lot), which the Zoners were disappointed didn't continue. The collapse of the Minyans led to their non-interference policy, which they had a direct hand in... Maybe the Time Lords weren't considered a custodial race then, so much as paladin-like defenders? They were who you called to solve an insoluble problem. Fixers. When the Last Great Time War came, they hadn't properly engaged with the wider cosmos in several millennia, so they started off at a fumble. Against an adversary like the Daleks, who'd been fighting since their creation and never stopped, they'd be at a serious disadvantage. Prior to the Time War the last proper war Gallifrey was involved in (putting aside the civil wars of the Gallifrey series and Doom Coalition) was the war against the Cult of Morbius, and even then the Time Lords stayed their hand till late in the conflict. We see/hear the Chancellory Guard being almost completely useless against invaders in The Invasion of Time and The Apocalypse Element, so military tradition had evidently declined on Gallifrey. No wonder the Daleks nearly won the Time War. I do wonder how those interventions against the Eternals, and whatever their opponents actually were, worked. The Eternals are very powerful beings, who only seem to be reigned in by the Guardians, so a bunch of soldiers with stasers isn’t exactly going to cut it. Worth noting, not all Eternals have forgotten the Time Lords. The ones posing as the Gallifreyan Gods (Death, Pain and Time) are well aware of them, and seem to take a particular pleasure in messing around with Time Lords. Perhaps the Gods have retained knowledge of the interventions and have adopted those roles as a way of asserting themselves above the Time Lords. The post-Pythia Gallifrey under Rassilon would be a fascinating thing to have properly explored. We hear references to the many wars Rassilon led the fledgling Time Lords into (with a vast range of enemies: the Ravenous, Racnoss, Hoothi, Hyperion, Vondrax, Nestenes), but very few have been elaborated on. The Time Wars of old are quite mysterious. I like the idea of the Time Lords as the ultimate arbitrators of the universe. Mission to Magnus does feature them being petitioned for help, so it’s clearly an option some civilisations were aware of. Arguably by the time of the Doctor, the Time Lords had abandoned their duty in this regard, as we never really see them intervene for anything but protecting the Web of Time or their own gain. Perhaps that withdrawal was a cultural reaction to the shock of Morbius’ attempted conquest. I suppose then the rise of the Daleks could be seen as the Time Lords’ own fault-by stepping back completely, the Time Lords gave the Daleks free reign.
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mbt66
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Post by mbt66 on Sept 25, 2019 15:55:50 GMT
This has been a fascinating read and I agree with the common consensus about the treatment of the Time War at Big Finish.
Currently I have only listened to the first Gallifrey boxset, two Eighth Doctor boxsets*, the three War Master sets and all four War Doctor boxsets.
*I have the third 8DTW boxset, but haven’t had the desire to listen to it as yet. That probably says all I need to about that range.
I had my doubts about Big Finish running two series concurrently for the Eighth Doctor, especially with so many of the creatives behind them being the same...I still have those same concerns.
Although we are not getting The Master crossing wits with Davros in his last set I still hope we will get a meeting between the Eighth Doctor and Rassilon in one of the remaining sets whose content is still to be announced, plus I would really like a reunion for the Doctor and Romana...(before she regenerates!)
Basically I would have liked a lot more crossovers between the ranges. There is still time.
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Post by tuigirl on Sept 25, 2019 19:50:01 GMT
Well, you could argue that nowhere is save.
And Bliss' planet got wiped out, so it was indeed a bit safer in the TARDIS.
As for the companion, I am pretty sure we will see the demise of Bliss come the next box set. But different from, let's say Live from the current 8th Doctor series (who might or might not die in the next set), I am not really sure I care.
I am also not sure why her death would make a bigger impact on the 8th Doctor than the death of his other (more beloved) companions.
But maybe that will lead into a few deeper stories with more raw emotion?
Am not sure the death of one companion would lead to a change in the Doctor? Surely any sane man would be affected by the devastation being caused and do anything to intervene,especially if he knew he could make a difference but there is cowardice in us all in face of things we think aren’t really our problems,the Doctor is no different has he ever admitted his cowardice?
i know some people disagree but I think episodes calling to account those parties involved would be gripping story telling.We are talking a Universal conflict that affected so many races and Times-even if the whole conflict was brought to account by those other Time Travelling Capable races we hear about. This is what I like about the Warner Doctor... he is a blatant coward and he even admits it.
To be honest, I am not sure if 8, as he is currently written, would be able to act cowardly or prefer to die instead. I am also not sure if more loss would affect him in such a way to finally give up and run away? I think he is more of the raging and suffering type.
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Post by tuigirl on Sept 25, 2019 19:51:22 GMT
This has been a fascinating read and I agree with the common consensus about the treatment of the Time War at Big Finish. Currently I have only listened to the first Gallifrey boxset, two Eighth Doctor boxsets*, the three War Master sets and all four War Doctor boxsets. *I have the third 8DTW boxset, but haven’t had the desire to listen to it as yet. That probably says all I need to about that range. I had my doubts about Big Finish running two series concurrently for the Eighth Doctor, especially with so many of the creatives behind them being the same...I still have those same concerns. Although we are not getting The Master crossing wits with Davros in his last set I still hope we will get a meeting between the Eighth Doctor and Rassilon in one of the remaining sets whose content is still to be announced, plus I would really like a reunion for the Doctor and Romana...(before she regenerates!) Basically I would have liked a lot more crossovers between the ranges. There is still time.As I said, I am confident it is going to happen. To be announced...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2019 20:04:43 GMT
Am not sure the death of one companion would lead to a change in the Doctor? Surely any sane man would be affected by the devastation being caused and do anything to intervene,especially if he knew he could make a difference but there is cowardice in us all in face of things we think aren’t really our problems,the Doctor is no different has he ever admitted his cowardice?
i know some people disagree but I think episodes calling to account those parties involved would be gripping story telling.We are talking a Universal conflict that affected so many races and Times-even if the whole conflict was brought to account by those other Time Travelling Capable races we hear about. This is what I like about the Warner Doctor... he is a blatant coward and he even admits it.
To be honest, I am not sure if 8, as he is currently written, would be able to act cowardly or prefer to die instead. I am also not sure if more loss would affect him in such a way to finally give up and run away? I think he is more of the raging and suffering type.
Yeah he really needs to get over that🤪 and are they still Raging?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2019 20:10:03 GMT
This has been a fascinating read and I agree with the common consensus about the treatment of the Time War at Big Finish. Currently I have only listened to the first Gallifrey boxset, two Eighth Doctor boxsets*, the three War Master sets and all four War Doctor boxsets. *I have the third 8DTW boxset, but haven’t had the desire to listen to it as yet. That probably says all I need to about that range. I had my doubts about Big Finish running two series concurrently for the Eighth Doctor, especially with so many of the creatives behind them being the same...I still have those same concerns. Although we are not getting The Master crossing wits with Davros in his last set I still hope we will get a meeting between the Eighth Doctor and Rassilon in one of the remaining sets whose content is still to be announced, plus I would really like a reunion for the Doctor and Romana...(before she regenerates!) Basically I would have liked a lot more crossovers between the ranges. There is still time.As I said, I am confident it is going to happen. To be announced... am with you on it not a crossover but a most definite Finale And It WILL include Davros. It really is the only way to bring it to a close. Then we could have the Doctor either as a fugitive Post Time War or as a bounty hunter bringing all those responsible for the atrocities in for TRIAL. You know what bring Vienna in and let her bring them all in,including the DOCTOR.OF course he is absolved , given he isn’t really a hunted man in the Post WAR Tv show , but hey tell me how he was eventually exhonerated and then became a hero, who was mourned for being murdered by RIVER. Night of the Doctor definitely showed he and his people where hated so how did this change of heart occur??
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Post by barnabaslives on Sept 25, 2019 21:36:30 GMT
Some valid points especially about Bliss. I don't blame the actor, she is good in Star Cops, it's how she is written. On reflection I do think this series is a let down with only a couple of decent episodes. As you say, The Conscript is awful & it really highlights what for me is a lack of imagination on the part of BF. They are often treating the Time War too literally. I agree very much about Rakhee Thakrar, but I did really like The Conscript. For me, that was The Doctor acting and thinking much like he did when he left Gallifrey in the first place, and I thoroughly enjoyed that.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Sept 25, 2019 22:42:06 GMT
How about a set of stories a la Flip/Flop? Or a regeneration phaser? Imagine we're listening to 8 and his voice suddenly shifts to 7's and he doesn't notice, but the companion does! Just spitballing here.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2019 0:32:17 GMT
How about a set of stories a la Flip/Flop? Or a regeneration phaser? Imagine we're listening to 8 and his voice suddenly shifts to 7's and he doesn't notice, but the companion does! Just spitballing here. Similarly, how about a group of Time Lords (and maybe one captured Dalek) are sitting around a campfire (maybe the Dalek), trying to piece together the events of the un-day. Only each Time Lord has met a different incarnation of the Doctor, so some parts are told with the Eighth, another with the Fourth, a chunk with the Fifth, etc; and part of the issue is that some parts of the story seem uncharacteristic for the Doctor they're using. All they know is that a friend of his has died. Could do a very nice story on how people are remembered after they pass and what makes the Eighth Doctor unique in how he processes it.
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Post by tuigirl on Sept 26, 2019 7:39:09 GMT
How about a set of stories a la Flip/Flop? Or a regeneration phaser? Imagine we're listening to 8 and his voice suddenly shifts to 7's and he doesn't notice, but the companion does! Just spitballing here. Similarly, how about a group of Time Lords (and maybe one captured Dalek) are sitting around a campfire (maybe the Dalek), trying to piece together the events of the un-day. Only each Time Lord has met a different incarnation of the Doctor, so some parts are told with the Eighth, another with the Fourth, a chunk with the Fifth, etc; and part of the issue is that some parts of the story seem uncharacteristic for the Doctor they're using. All they know is that a friend of his has died. Could do a very nice story on how people are remembered after they pass and what makes the Eighth Doctor unique in how he processes it. Both great ideas.
You know what? I am repeating myself but I REALLY miss the experimental stories of the past. The range of possibilities of what they could do if they were a bit more daring!
Instead we get stories like the Conscript. Which has some good comedy to it, and yes, they thought they put a Who spin on boot camp movies.... but compared to the possibilities it comes across as a bit lazy and pathetic.
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Post by elkawho on Sept 26, 2019 7:47:59 GMT
Similarly, how about a group of Time Lords (and maybe one captured Dalek) are sitting around a campfire (maybe the Dalek), trying to piece together the events of the un-day. Only each Time Lord has met a different incarnation of the Doctor, so some parts are told with the Eighth, another with the Fourth, a chunk with the Fifth, etc; and part of the issue is that some parts of the story seem uncharacteristic for the Doctor they're using. All they know is that a friend of his has died. Could do a very nice story on how people are remembered after they pass and what makes the Eighth Doctor unique in how he processes it. Both great ideas.
You know what? I am repeating myself but I REALLY miss the experimental stories of the past. The range of possibilities of what they could do if they were a bit more daring!
It's time to get Gary Russell on the phone!! Seriously, I think the BBC used to give them a lot more leeway with story ideas. They seem to now keep a much tighter grip on the character and show.
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