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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2019 7:57:07 GMT
Similarly, how about a group of Time Lords (and maybe one captured Dalek) are sitting around a campfire (maybe the Dalek), trying to piece together the events of the un-day. Only each Time Lord has met a different incarnation of the Doctor, so some parts are told with the Eighth, another with the Fourth, a chunk with the Fifth, etc; and part of the issue is that some parts of the story seem uncharacteristic for the Doctor they're using. All they know is that a friend of his has died. Could do a very nice story on how people are remembered after they pass and what makes the Eighth Doctor unique in how he processes it. Both great ideas.
You know what? I am repeating myself but I REALLY miss the experimental stories of the past. The range of possibilities of what they could do if they were a bit more daring!
Instead we get stories like the Conscript. Which has some good comedy to it, and yes, they thought they put a Who spin on boot camp movies.... but compared to the possibilities it comes across as a bit lazy and pathetic.
that’s really what Unbound is about-and I always get the feeling Unbound wasn’t well received . I have three to listen to on that range but I added Deadline to my listening and though I found it well written and funny I did find it kind of creepy in a way. Though the best part really was that bastard Ian Chesterton I bloody loved the old Bitter Barbara -she really should get a shot at travelling with the Doctors in real life lol(well real fictional Life)
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2019 8:01:10 GMT
Both great ideas.
You know what? I am repeating myself but I REALLY miss the experimental stories of the past. The range of possibilities of what they could do if they were a bit more daring!
It's time to get Gary Russell on the phone!! Seriously, I think the BBC used to give them a lot more leeway with story ideas. They seem to now keep a much tighter grip on the character and show. I wonder if they keep a tighter reign on that too if it was to expand . I find as am older things I avoided in the past am more open to. Throw David Collings Doctor into a Time War 😉
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Post by J.A. Prentice on Sept 26, 2019 8:04:11 GMT
The Time War is always more interesting on the edges than in the middle. At the end of the day, the fighting is just Daleks and Time Lords shooting at each other with a lot of shouting and technobabble, no matter how hard you try to rise above it. Ultimately things like "Let's show the Doctor doing something really bad!" or "Let's really put the Doctor through the ringer this time!" would end up just being tiring after a few stories. The best Time War material has been the War Master range, which stays firmly on those edges, with the Master skulking in the shadows of this temporal conflict, and the First Doctor Companion Chronicles Vol. 2, which uses the meta "rewriting stories" aspect of the War wonderfully and keeps it very mysterious and shadowy. The Time War is best left like an iceberg: terrible and looming with a sense of something vastly more lurking beneath the surface.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2019 8:11:18 GMT
Both great ideas.
You know what? I am repeating myself but I REALLY miss the experimental stories of the past. The range of possibilities of what they could do if they were a bit more daring! It's time to get Gary Russell on the phone!! Seriously, I think the BBC used to give them a lot more leeway with story ideas. They seem to now keep a much tighter grip on the character and show. It's interesting, isn't it? We do get the occassional Time in Office or You Are the Doctor, but the experimentation nowadays tends to be more thematic than stylistic. More dabbling in what's said than how it's said, so to speak. Come to think of it... I wonder if a Time War series could have worked coming from a different perspective? Kind of like an anthology series. The Doctor and his companions link everything together, but our main viewpoint is someone who's always fundamentally alien. Either literally or psychologically. The Doctor is kept this powerful figure and we gain a special insight into how people are affected by the War. For instance, a story that is about Fighting the Good Fight and is a series of hypnotic propaganda films from the Time Lords and those they both employ to fight the war. The first three acts tell a story from each branch and the fourth is from someone working in Gallifreyan Agitprop. The truth behind the screen. Another possibility is a story from the perspective of someone like Lorraine Baines from Davros, someone who venerates the Daleks from afar, and how their lives are affected by the War.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2019 8:28:44 GMT
The Time War is always more interesting on the edges than in the middle. At the end of the day, the fighting is just Daleks and Time Lords shooting at each other with a lot of shouting and technobabble, no matter how hard you try to rise above it. Ultimately things like "Let's show the Doctor doing something really bad!" or "Let's really put the Doctor through the ringer this time!" would end up just being tiring after a few stories. The best Time War material has been the War Master range, which stays firmly on those edges, with the Master skulking in the shadows of this temporal conflict, and the First Doctor Companion Chronicles Vol. 2, which uses the meta "rewriting stories" aspect of the War wonderfully and keeps it very mysterious and shadowy. The Time War is best left like an iceberg: terrible and looming with a sense of something vastly more lurking beneath the surface. I feel if am Honest it was BEST-Time Locked. Nah i guess thats unfair of me.I have enjoyed it and given the turnover of most of these writers am very forgiving of any faults i may perceive.Believe me i have every respect for each one of them.I know in a couple of years i will relisten and be like wow that was clever,wow why did i not enjoy it.Too Many ranges covering the same Topic I want the Time War to finish and want to get back to an excellent MAIN RANGE. All good things end-I have a fondness for dark eyes/Doom/Ravenous but am all for unconnected stories and am Glad i think that they are heading back that way till the next Universal/History Changing/Time destructing threat comes along
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Post by shallacatop on Sept 26, 2019 11:58:04 GMT
I thought this might be of interest to some of you: The Time War at Big Finish.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2019 12:18:28 GMT
I am repeating myself but I REALLY miss the experimental stories of the past. The range of possibilities of what they could do if they were a bit more daring! It's time to get Gary Russell on the phone!! I wouldn't argue with that! I loved the Gary Russell era and yes, there was Doctor Who stories of a more daring nature during his tenure, but I don't think it's actually a creative issue within Big Finish. There are plenty of great writers writing for Big Finish but all of them have to write within the limits of the licence that the BBC give to Big Finish for Doctor Who stories on audio. Seriously, I think the BBC used to give them a lot more leeway with story ideas. They seem to now keep a much tighter grip on the character and show. That's correct. Since the TV series returned in 2005 Big Finish Doctor Who stories have become less experimental because of the licence. Which is probably why I found the War Doctor stories - as great as John Hurt's performances were - unsatisfactory on some levels, as they could basically have been grumpy versions of any Doctor in those stories. We didn't get too much of the really bad stuff that made the Doctor want to be 'The Doctor' no more. Obviously the BBC don't want any incarnation of The Doctor doing anything that's not kiddie-friendly.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2019 12:40:49 GMT
It's time to get Gary Russell on the phone!! I wouldn't argue with that! I loved the Gary Russell era and yes, there was Doctor Who stories of a more daring nature during his tenure, but I don't think it's actually a creative issue within Big Finish. There are plenty of great writers writing for Big Finish but all of them have to write within the limits of the licence that the BBC give to Big Finish for Doctor Who stories on audio. Seriously, I think the BBC used to give them a lot more leeway with story ideas. They seem to now keep a much tighter grip on the character and show. That's correct. Since the TV series returned in 2005 Big Finish Doctor Who stories have become less experimental because of the licence. Which is probably why I found the War Doctor stories - as great as John Hurt's performances were - unsatisfactory on some levels, as they could basically have been grumpy versions of any Doctor in those stories. We didn't get too much of the really bad stuff that made the Doctor want to be 'The Doctor' no more. Obviously the BBC don't want any incarnation of The Doctor doing anything that's not kiddie-friendly. Now, there's an enduring loaded term. I always shake my head at "child-friendly" because that's how we got the Hays Production Code in Hollywood, pushing a very particular kind of "goodliness". There have always been children's shows dealing with heavy themes. They tend to be the ones that withstand the test of time. Kids are much more interested in concepts they consider unchildlike than vice versa. It's an adult idea of finding comfort in childhood things. It's reassuring, naturally. But I can remember as a kid really enjoying and seeking out the stories that pushed me outside my comfort zone. Made me think. That was a huge part of the Hartnell stories growing up. Ian and Barbara weren't superheroes. They were just ordinary people, stolen from their home, trying to adapt as best they could. The Doctor wasn't a villain, but a man frightened for his own safety and that of his granddaughter. A man with so much wisdom about the wider universe, but began with little about himself. These are some of the ideas that last, that challenge and inspire.
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Sept 26, 2019 12:50:48 GMT
How about a set of stories a la Flip/Flop? Or a regeneration phaser? Imagine we're listening to 8 and his voice suddenly shifts to 7's and he doesn't notice, but the companion does! Just spitballing here. Similarly, how about a group of Time Lords (and maybe one captured Dalek) are sitting around a campfire (maybe the Dalek), trying to piece together the events of the un-day. Only each Time Lord has met a different incarnation of the Doctor, so some parts are told with the Eighth, another with the Fourth, a chunk with the Fifth, etc; and part of the issue is that some parts of the story seem uncharacteristic for the Doctor they're using. All they know is that a friend of his has died. Could do a very nice story on how people are remembered after they pass and what makes the Eighth Doctor unique in how he processes it. Both of these are fantastic ideas. dorney what you think?
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Sept 26, 2019 12:53:38 GMT
For some reason ive always picture the Crucible as this giant, constantly shifting structure. Almost like Leviathan in Hellraiser 2 maybe. And one scene i had in my head was The Master and a few other Time Lords trying to escape its fall, running down its outside as it moves and shifts. And its interesting how in previous Time Wars, The Time Lords came in to end it, but in one they started it all went to hell Ooh, that's a good image. Like a hungry, malevolent Dark Tower. A... thing, that trawls in matter from the multiverse. Almost like the reverse of a CVE, it's a funnel for extraordinary power where Time in its rawest element is refined to create whatever the Time Lords require for their War. Something that TARDISes speak of in fearful, hushed tones. And then the Daleks get it. Yeah, it makes you kind of wonder what they did to finish those two prior wars. The Eternals in Enlightenment seem to have completely forgotten that the Time Lords exist and we know next to nothing about the Halldons or the Omnicraven. (I wonder if it was still back in the days of the Demat Gun?) As sherlock mentioned, we know little about how the Time Lords operated back when they had their Empire after their revolt against the Pythia. By the Doctor's time, circa his second incarnation, Gallifrey had a fraternal connection with the Third Zoners (Dastari and his lot), which the Zoners were disappointed didn't continue. The collapse of the Minyans led to their non-interference policy, which they had a direct hand in... Maybe the Time Lords weren't considered a custodial race then, so much as paladin-like defenders? They were who you called to solve an insoluble problem. Fixers. When the Last Great Time War came, they hadn't properly engaged with the wider cosmos in several millennia, so they started off at a fumble. Against an adversary like the Daleks, who'd been fighting since their creation and never stopped, they'd be at a serious disadvantage. Its just something that pops into your mind doesnt it
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Post by sherlock on Sept 26, 2019 13:00:33 GMT
It's time to get Gary Russell on the phone!! Seriously, I think the BBC used to give them a lot more leeway with story ideas. They seem to now keep a much tighter grip on the character and show. It's interesting, isn't it? We do get the occassional Time in Office or You Are the Doctor, but the experimentation nowadays tends to be more thematic than stylistic. More dabbling in what's said than how it's said, so to speak. Come to think of it... I wonder if a Time War series could have worked coming from a different perspective? Kind of like an anthology series. The Doctor and his companions link everything together, but our main viewpoint is someone who's always fundamentally alien. Either literally or psychologically. The Doctor is kept this powerful figure and we gain a special insight into how people are affected by the War. For instance, a story that is about Fighting the Good Fight and is a series of hypnotic propaganda films from the Time Lords and those they both employ to fight the war. The first three acts tell a story from each branch and the fourth is from someone working in Gallifreyan Agitprop. The truth behind the screen. Another possibility is a story from the perspective of someone like Lorraine Baines from Davros, someone who venerates the Daleks from afar, and how their lives are affected by the War. The idea of War Doctor Chronicles gets suggested a lot, but I wonder if something like that would be the best way to approach them. Different perspectives on him; to Gallifreyan soldiers he’s a war hero, to Dalek agents he’s their worst nightmare, to civilians caught in the crossfire he’s a figure of fear/awe and to the Time Lord commanders he’s a loose cannon.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2019 13:01:07 GMT
Ooh, that's a good image. Like a hungry, malevolent Dark Tower. A... thing, that trawls in matter from the multiverse. Almost like the reverse of a CVE, it's a funnel for extraordinary power where Time in its rawest element is refined to create whatever the Time Lords require for their War. Something that TARDISes speak of in fearful, hushed tones. And then the Daleks get it. Yeah, it makes you kind of wonder what they did to finish those two prior wars. The Eternals in Enlightenment seem to have completely forgotten that the Time Lords exist and we know next to nothing about the Halldons or the Omnicraven. (I wonder if it was still back in the days of the Demat Gun?) As sherlock mentioned, we know little about how the Time Lords operated back when they had their Empire after their revolt against the Pythia. By the Doctor's time, circa his second incarnation, Gallifrey had a fraternal connection with the Third Zoners (Dastari and his lot), which the Zoners were disappointed didn't continue. The collapse of the Minyans led to their non-interference policy, which they had a direct hand in... Maybe the Time Lords weren't considered a custodial race then, so much as paladin-like defenders? They were who you called to solve an insoluble problem. Fixers. When the Last Great Time War came, they hadn't properly engaged with the wider cosmos in several millennia, so they started off at a fumble. Against an adversary like the Daleks, who'd been fighting since their creation and never stopped, they'd be at a serious disadvantage. Its just something that pops into your mind doesnt it Like a champagne cork. To be fair, you came up with the brilliant Leviathan idea, though.
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Sept 26, 2019 13:02:09 GMT
Its just something that pops into your mind doesnt it Like a champagne cork. To be fair, you came up with the brilliant Leviathan idea, though. Its just the way i always pictured it. And of course when the Time Lords are running down its sides, the gravity is always shifting
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2019 13:07:38 GMT
Like a champagne cork. To be fair, you came up with the brilliant Leviathan idea, though. Its just the way i always pictured it. And of course when the Time Lords are running down its sides, the gravity is always shifting So instead of upper and lower decks, you have levels that are pro-axis and neg-axis, depending on where you were spatiotemporally. Cool. It's interesting, isn't it? We do get the occassional Time in Office or You Are the Doctor, but the experimentation nowadays tends to be more thematic than stylistic. More dabbling in what's said than how it's said, so to speak. Come to think of it... I wonder if a Time War series could have worked coming from a different perspective? Kind of like an anthology series. The Doctor and his companions link everything together, but our main viewpoint is someone who's always fundamentally alien. Either literally or psychologically. The Doctor is kept this powerful figure and we gain a special insight into how people are affected by the War. For instance, a story that is about Fighting the Good Fight and is a series of hypnotic propaganda films from the Time Lords and those they both employ to fight the war. The first three acts tell a story from each branch and the fourth is from someone working in Gallifreyan Agitprop. The truth behind the screen. Another possibility is a story from the perspective of someone like Lorraine Baines from Davros, someone who venerates the Daleks from afar, and how their lives are affected by the War. The idea of War Doctor Chronicles gets suggested a lot, but I wonder if something like that would be the best way to approach them. Different perspectives on him; to Gallifreyan soldiers he’s a war hero, to Dalek agents he’s their worst nightmare, to civilians caught in the crossfire he’s a figure of fear/awe and to the Time Lord commanders he’s a loose cannon. I'm going to put that in my list of future anthology ideas for Divergent Wordsmiths, this is honestly too interesting an idea just to let it sit.
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Sept 26, 2019 13:20:58 GMT
Its just the way i always pictured it. And of course when the Time Lords are running down its sides, the gravity is always shifting So instead of upper and lower decks, you have levels that are pro-axis and neg-axis, depending on where you were spatiotemporally. Cool. The idea of War Doctor Chronicles gets suggested a lot, but I wonder if something like that would be the best way to approach them. Different perspectives on him; to Gallifreyan soldiers he’s a war hero, to Dalek agents he’s their worst nightmare, to civilians caught in the crossfire he’s a figure of fear/awe and to the Time Lord commanders he’s a loose cannon. I'm going to put that in my list of future anthology ideas for Divergent Wordsmiths, this is honestly too interesting an idea just to let it sit. Exactly yeah We do need to actually properly collab on something at some point. though we are always saying this lol
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Post by shallacatop on Sept 26, 2019 16:47:44 GMT
The War Doctor Chronicles idea is one I’ve suggested in the past. It doesn’t necessarily need a Doctor impersonator in there and it suits the current format of the Chronicles, where at least two of the stories don’t feature a returning cast member. They’re great opportunities to show how different people and races view the War Doctor, as well as providing additional stories in the absence of John Hurt. You also have the opportunity to have stories span his timeline and have them more intimate and character driven.
They’d also work well as Short Trips. I thought the two Eighth Doctor Time War ones were great. I’d be up for seeing similar for the War Doctor.
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Post by tuigirl on Sept 26, 2019 18:27:28 GMT
The War Doctor Chronicles idea is one I’ve suggested in the past. It doesn’t necessarily need a Doctor impersonator in there and it suits the current format of the Chronicles, where at least two of the stories don’t feature a returning cast member. They’re great opportunities to show how different people and races view the War Doctor, as well as providing additional stories in the absence of John Hurt. You also have the opportunity to have stories span his timeline and have them more intimate and character driven. They’d also work well as Short Trips. I thought the two Eighth Doctor Time War ones were great. I’d be up for seeing similar for the War Doctor. I loved A heart on both sides. That was beautiful. I was less keen on All hands on deck. But maybe because I am still unfamiliar with the character of Susan.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2019 18:49:45 GMT
You could do a great Short Trips story from the perspective of a young Time Lord recruit. After a life spent in academia, he/she is completely out of their element on the battlefield. Amongst their fellow soldiers, they discuss stories and rumours regarding the famous renegade Time Lord The Doctor. Not that he/she ever believed those stories of course. Until one day, after surviving a surprise attack from a Dalek squadron they come face to face with the man himself.
And you know what? They were right. He isn’t like the stories at all. He is much, much worse.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2019 5:05:05 GMT
They could do a story were the doctor actually delivers the Ultimate weapon and not knowing whether he can switch it off activates it while the main antagonists scoff as to him actually using it ,ias the entire fleet of Tardis and Dalek ships wage full out war.Then from inside his Tardis with his trusted companions he delivers a speech to both parties .Either way he tells them all there will be peace ad neither party or any others will survive in the wake of the weapons destructive power
Around the fleets the weapon begins its chain of destruction sucking both fleets in while slowly reaching greater and great size with greater and greater destruction.
as the time War leaders and Dalek leaders look on he tells each of them isn’t this what they wanted give me an ultimate weapon-lets have peace.
Finally he tells them Weapons dont make peace People make peace.
then attempts to deactivate with both sides in the face of being wiped out agree to an armistice.
🤪😉
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Post by mrperson on Sept 29, 2019 20:46:25 GMT
I wouldn't argue with that! I loved the Gary Russell era and yes, there was Doctor Who stories of a more daring nature during his tenure, but I don't think it's actually a creative issue within Big Finish. There are plenty of great writers writing for Big Finish but all of them have to write within the limits of the licence that the BBC give to Big Finish for Doctor Who stories on audio. That's correct. Since the TV series returned in 2005 Big Finish Doctor Who stories have become less experimental because of the licence. Which is probably why I found the War Doctor stories - as great as John Hurt's performances were - unsatisfactory on some levels, as they could basically have been grumpy versions of any Doctor in those stories. We didn't get too much of the really bad stuff that made the Doctor want to be 'The Doctor' no more. Obviously the BBC don't want any incarnation of The Doctor doing anything that's not kiddie-friendly. Now, there's an enduring loaded term. I always shake my head at "child-friendly" because that's how we got the Hays Production Code in Hollywood, pushing a very particular kind of "goodliness". There have always been children's shows dealing with heavy themes. They tend to be the ones that withstand the test of time. Kids are much more interested in concepts they consider unchildlike than vice versa. It's an adult idea of finding comfort in childhood things. It's reassuring, naturally. But I can remember as a kid really enjoying and seeking out the stories that pushed me outside my comfort zone. Made me think. That was a huge part of the Hartnell stories growing up. Ian and Barbara weren't superheroes. They were just ordinary people, stolen from their home, trying to adapt as best they could. The Doctor wasn't a villain, but a man frightened for his own safety and that of his granddaughter. A man with so much wisdom about the wider universe, but began with little about himself. These are some of the ideas that last, that challenge and inspire.
And the other thing that bugs me about it is that beyond only occasional low-tier swear words (I believe I've heard "damn" and "bitch" on BF, at least, the latter maybe a couple of times. Possibly a "crap" thrown in somewhere), and no sex beyond one-liner bits of innuendo, I'm not sure how it's supposed to be kiddie-friendly.
It certainly doesn't mean no killing, and it certainly doesn't mean the Doctor not killing (rather, only when it's the only remaining option). It doesn't mean no adult themes. Even in the reboot we have:
- Suicide as a resolution in Amy's Choice. I think it's fairly clear by the end that the Doctor had worked it out, but it also seemed pretty clear that Amy didn't know. Sure, she woke up. But she had no idea she would.
- A man having to choose which version of his spouse to kill (or 'unwrite', but what's the difference?) in The Girl Who Waited.
- All the references to the Doctor committing double-genocide: billions of his people and "a billion billion daleks", aka, a quintillion. But I suppose nobody has much reason to shed any tears about the latter. (Or should they? "Do I have the right?").
- The whole thing with people feeling what happens to their bodies if their consciousness ended up in the ...erm..whatever it was called. Missy's stolen Gallifreyan thingy. ("Nethersphere" or something?).
And so on. If "kiddie-friendly" means hiding dark themes from children, well, that just illustrates what is so absurd about most media. People act with the intent of protecting children, but how do they go about it? Well, we just have to make sure they don't hear the word "shit" or see any naughty bits. Because of course, those are the worst parts of life....
Tangent: American media needs to be much less hesitant to show violence and its aftermath: if one does not experience evil, how does one come to understand the necessity of resisting evil but by seeing its work? Sure, you don't want to present something as age-appropriate and then traumatize children willy-nilly, but that doesn't mean we have to hide everything, either.
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