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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2019 0:24:07 GMT
Now, there's an enduring loaded term. I always shake my head at "child-friendly" because that's how we got the Hays Production Code in Hollywood, pushing a very particular kind of "goodliness". There have always been children's shows dealing with heavy themes. They tend to be the ones that withstand the test of time. Kids are much more interested in concepts they consider unchildlike than vice versa. It's an adult idea of finding comfort in childhood things. It's reassuring, naturally. But I can remember as a kid really enjoying and seeking out the stories that pushed me outside my comfort zone. Made me think. That was a huge part of the Hartnell stories growing up. Ian and Barbara weren't superheroes. They were just ordinary people, stolen from their home, trying to adapt as best they could. The Doctor wasn't a villain, but a man frightened for his own safety and that of his granddaughter. A man with so much wisdom about the wider universe, but began with little about himself. These are some of the ideas that last, that challenge and inspire.
And the other thing that bugs me about it is that beyond only occasional low-tier swear words (I believe I've heard "damn" and "bitch" on BF, at least, the latter maybe a couple of times. Possibly a "crap" thrown in somewhere), and no sex beyond one-liner bits of innuendo, I'm not sure how it's supposed to be kiddie-friendly.
It certainly doesn't mean no killing, and it certainly doesn't mean the Doctor not killing (rather, only when it's the only remaining option). It doesn't mean no adult themes. Even in the reboot we have:
- Suicide as a resolution in Amy's Choice. I think it's fairly clear by the end that the Doctor had worked it out, but it also seemed pretty clear that Amy didn't know. Sure, she woke up. But she had no idea she would.
- A man having to choose which version of his spouse to kill (or 'unwrite', but what's the difference?) in The Girl Who Waited.
- All the references to the Doctor committing double-genocide: billions of his people and "a billion billion daleks", aka, a quintillion. But I suppose nobody has much reason to shed any tears about the latter. (Or should they? "Do I have the right?").
- The whole thing with people feeling what happens to their bodies if their consciousness ended up in the ...erm..whatever it was called. Missy's stolen Gallifreyan thingy. ("Nethersphere" or something?).
And so on. If "kiddie-friendly" means hiding dark themes from children, well, that just illustrates what is so absurd about most media. People act with the intent of protecting children, but how do they go about it? Well, we just have to make sure they don't hear the word "shit" or see any naughty bits. Because of course, those are the worst parts of life....
Tangent: American media needs to be much less hesitant to show violence and its aftermath: if one does not experience evil, how does one come to understand the necessity of resisting evil but by seeing its work? Sure, you don't want to present something as age-appropriate and then traumatize children willy-nilly, but that doesn't mean we have to hide everything, either. I think, based on how these attitudes have changed, it's less about protecting children and more about protecting the idea of childhood innocence. As kids, we tended to gravitate towards the grim and the ghoulish parts of adulthood ideas. Sarah climbing the gantry of the Thal rocket in Genesis of the Daleks was the moment where everyone was glued to the screen. The clap of gunfire beneath. Concrete walls. Rattling metal. Klaxon. The Kaled soldier screaming in her face as the bullet struck his back and he swung from the gantry. It's a really intense sequence and it triggers that same instinct for excitement that people get from horror films. What's perhaps changed from then and now is how we, adults and children alike, process it. If we go back to the first two Dalek stories, they tap into a very raw vein for the early 1960s. I realised only recently that the assassination of Temmosus -- his successor, Alydon, forced to consider what kind of a leader he would be -- must have been strong, unexpected therapy for then recent death of President Kennedy. The adult themes can exist as a means of teaching children how to cope, understand and even encourage these ideas. I will always remember the Planet of the Daleks quote in my signature because it's a strong message of a difficult idea. Particularly difficult for children who have deceptively little agency themselves. You can fear, but not make fear your master, or as Alydon said: "There is no indignity in being afraid to die. But, there is a terrible shame in being afraid to live." A line said to say: it will be difficult, but we will stand. Whatever our misgivings, we want to grow. Brilliant stuff to be teaching children. (As an aside, I think controlling the intensity of violence is linked quite strongly with its foley. Real Time's visceral Cyber-conversion had significantly more impact than Morbius's brain sloshing on the floor.)
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Sept 30, 2019 8:42:07 GMT
Now, there's an enduring loaded term. I always shake my head at "child-friendly" because that's how we got the Hays Production Code in Hollywood, pushing a very particular kind of "goodliness". There have always been children's shows dealing with heavy themes. They tend to be the ones that withstand the test of time. Kids are much more interested in concepts they consider unchildlike than vice versa. It's an adult idea of finding comfort in childhood things. It's reassuring, naturally. But I can remember as a kid really enjoying and seeking out the stories that pushed me outside my comfort zone. Made me think. That was a huge part of the Hartnell stories growing up. Ian and Barbara weren't superheroes. They were just ordinary people, stolen from their home, trying to adapt as best they could. The Doctor wasn't a villain, but a man frightened for his own safety and that of his granddaughter. A man with so much wisdom about the wider universe, but began with little about himself. These are some of the ideas that last, that challenge and inspire.
And the other thing that bugs me about it is that beyond only occasional low-tier swear words (I believe I've heard "damn" and "bitch" on BF, at least, the latter maybe a couple of times. Possibly a "crap" thrown in somewhere), and no sex beyond one-liner bits of innuendo, I'm not sure how it's supposed to be kiddie-friendly.
It certainly doesn't mean no killing, and it certainly doesn't mean the Doctor not killing (rather, only when it's the only remaining option). It doesn't mean no adult themes. Even in the reboot we have:
- Suicide as a resolution in Amy's Choice. I think it's fairly clear by the end that the Doctor had worked it out, but it also seemed pretty clear that Amy didn't know. Sure, she woke up. But she had no idea she would.
- A man having to choose which version of his spouse to kill (or 'unwrite', but what's the difference?) in The Girl Who Waited.
- All the references to the Doctor committing double-genocide: billions of his people and "a billion billion daleks", aka, a quintillion. But I suppose nobody has much reason to shed any tears about the latter. (Or should they? "Do I have the right?").
- The whole thing with people feeling what happens to their bodies if their consciousness ended up in the ...erm..whatever it was called. Missy's stolen Gallifreyan thingy. ("Nethersphere" or something?).
And so on. If "kiddie-friendly" means hiding dark themes from children, well, that just illustrates what is so absurd about most media. People act with the intent of protecting children, but how do they go about it? Well, we just have to make sure they don't hear the word "shit" or see any naughty bits. Because of course, those are the worst parts of life....
Tangent: American media needs to be much less hesitant to show violence and its aftermath: if one does not experience evil, how does one come to understand the necessity of resisting evil but by seeing its work? Sure, you don't want to present something as age-appropriate and then traumatize children willy-nilly, but that doesn't mean we have to hide everything, either. Well said, well said.
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Post by J.A. Prentice on Oct 1, 2019 5:09:16 GMT
I do think, though, that a lot of fans are hanging onto an initial impression of the War Doctor that doesn't match anything we've seen since. In Name/Night of the Doctor, he's this bogeyman: the warrior who'll do what the Doctor won't or can't. But the man we see in Day and who we've seen in every other official story, is simply the Doctor in denial, pushed to an edge and insisting he isn't a good man, while still being the Doctor underneath it all. That's the conclusion to Day, not that he was a monster, but that he "was the Doctor all along." I think clinging to the idea that he was similar to the Valeyard or the Collings Doctor at this point isn't really feasible. While that might have been interesting, it's not the character we actually saw or the one we've heard from.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2019 7:03:55 GMT
I do think, though, that a lot of fans are hanging onto an initial impression of the War Doctor that doesn't match anything we've seen since. In Name/Night of the Doctor, he's this bogeyman: the warrior who'll do what the Doctor won't or can't. But the man we see in Day and who we've seen in every other official story, is simply the Doctor in denial, pushed to an edge and insisting he isn't a good man, while still being the Doctor underneath it all. That's the conclusion to Day, not that he was a monster, but that he "was the Doctor all along." I think clinging to the idea that he was similar to the Valeyard or the Collings Doctor at this point isn't really feasible. While that might have been interesting, it's not the character we actually saw or the one we've heard from. The War Doctor is the one who used a gun to write No More on a wall (was he referring to the time war or what he had done during it?) & used The Moment to wipe out both Daleks & Time Lords. It is inferred that he committed some other terrible acts as well.
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Post by tuigirl on Oct 1, 2019 7:12:29 GMT
I do think, though, that a lot of fans are hanging onto an initial impression of the War Doctor that doesn't match anything we've seen since. In Name/Night of the Doctor, he's this bogeyman: the warrior who'll do what the Doctor won't or can't. But the man we see in Day and who we've seen in every other official story, is simply the Doctor in denial, pushed to an edge and insisting he isn't a good man, while still being the Doctor underneath it all. That's the conclusion to Day, not that he was a monster, but that he "was the Doctor all along." I think clinging to the idea that he was similar to the Valeyard or the Collings Doctor at this point isn't really feasible. While that might have been interesting, it's not the character we actually saw or the one we've heard from. The War Doctor is the one who used a gun to write No More on a wall (was he referring to the time war or what he had done during it?) & used The Moment to wipe out both Daleks & Time Lords. It is inferred that he committed some other terrible acts as well. And I think this is EXACTLY the difference between most of the writers (what nightwingfan said) and what many of us took from it (johnhurtdoctor).
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2019 9:59:16 GMT
The War Doctor is the one who used a gun to write No More on a wall (was he referring to the time war or what he had done during it?) & used The Moment to wipe out both Daleks & Time Lords. It is inferred that he committed some other terrible acts as well. And I think this is EXACTLY the difference between most of the writers (what nightwingfan said) and what many of us took from it (johnhurtdoctor). It's a bit of a patchwork, yeah. You've got five-years worth of implications from the RTD era (implied to be the Eighth, if not Ninth Doctor), the reputation of a Doctor denied in Name of the Doctor ("What I did, I did without choice. In the name of peace and sanity.") and Day's assertion that, in the end, he deserved to be forgiven and remembered. I think you can still have both. The Sixth, Seventh and Eighth Doctors all have quite distinctive character arcs. None of them are the same by the time we reach their respective curtain calls, so it's fair to assume that the War Doctor could have the same. The initial expectation of the boogeyman realised and the tired, old fellow we saw on television. Maybe his second chance comes from the fact that in the end -- unlike, say, the David Collings Doctor from Full Fathom Five -- he did have his wake-up call. The Ninth Doctor does pick up his old moniker again, after all.
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Oct 1, 2019 12:28:42 GMT
And with DOTD dont forget the War Doctor planned to end himself as well as everyone else.
So alot of the acts we didnt see him commit are/could be part of what drove him in the end to make that decision
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2019 12:57:03 GMT
"You can take the warrior out of the Doctor, but you can never take the Doctor out of the warrior..."
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Oct 1, 2019 14:06:14 GMT
I do think, though, that a lot of fans are hanging onto an initial impression of the War Doctor that doesn't match anything we've seen since. In Name/Night of the Doctor, he's this bogeyman: the warrior who'll do what the Doctor won't or can't. But the man we see in Day and who we've seen in every other official story, is simply the Doctor in denial, pushed to an edge and insisting he isn't a good man, while still being the Doctor underneath it all. That's the conclusion to Day, not that he was a monster, but that he "was the Doctor all along." I think clinging to the idea that he was similar to the Valeyard or the Collings Doctor at this point isn't really feasible. While that might have been interesting, it's not the character we actually saw or the one we've heard from. The War Doctor is the one who used a gun to write No More on a wall (was he referring to the time war or what he had done during it?) & used The Moment to wipe out both Daleks & Time Lords. It is inferred that he committed some other terrible acts as well. I often wonder what drove him to write “No More” on the wall, especially as it was a callback to what Dalek Caan said in Journey’s End as well. What could have happened that would make such an impression on the Doctor and the last surviving member of the Cult of Skaro that they could both driven to the lengths that they were?
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Oct 1, 2019 14:15:30 GMT
The War Doctor is the one who used a gun to write No More on a wall (was he referring to the time war or what he had done during it?) & used The Moment to wipe out both Daleks & Time Lords. It is inferred that he committed some other terrible acts as well. I often wonder what drove him to write “No More” on the wall, especially as it was a callback to what Dalek Caan said in Journey’s End as well. What could have happened that would make such an impression on the Doctor and the last surviving member of the Cult of Skaro that they could both driven to the lengths that they were? According to Engines of War, it was Cinder’s death.
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Post by shallacatop on Oct 1, 2019 14:41:19 GMT
Engines of War was promoted as prequel to The Day of the Doctor, but in the actual story it’s purposely left open to interpretation as to whether it leads in directly or not.
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Post by tuigirl on Oct 1, 2019 17:22:32 GMT
Engines of War was promoted as prequel to The Day of the Doctor, but in the actual story it’s purposely left open to interpretation as to whether it leads in directly or not. Yeah, I personally did not really buy that...
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Post by polly on Oct 1, 2019 23:13:44 GMT
I'd prefer a ruthless edge to the War Doctor if we simply must have him. I realize he didn't turn out to be as much of a big bad wolf as we were led to believe, even on television, but I find that rather disappointing. I think reining the character in to be closer to his other selves is a wasted opportunity to do something truly different. And due to the chaotic nature of a Time War, you can tell those stories without risk of contaminating anything else.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Oct 2, 2019 1:18:32 GMT
I'd prefer a ruthless edge to the War Doctor if we simply must have him. I realize he didn't turn out to be as much of a big bad wolf as we were led to believe, even on television, but I find that rather disappointing. I think reining the character in to be closer to his other selves is a wasted opportunity to do something truly different. And due to the chaotic nature of a Time War, you can tell those stories without risk of contaminating anything else. Do you think his other selves, his Doctor selves, were holding him back? As in he at some level wanted to be more like them, so tempered his responses, even though for so long he had to make choices they didn't? He knows they remember it, and feel it, but he's living it NOW.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2019 17:45:02 GMT
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Post by polly on Oct 2, 2019 18:12:34 GMT
I'd prefer a ruthless edge to the War Doctor if we simply must have him. I realize he didn't turn out to be as much of a big bad wolf as we were led to believe, even on television, but I find that rather disappointing. I think reining the character in to be closer to his other selves is a wasted opportunity to do something truly different. And due to the chaotic nature of a Time War, you can tell those stories without risk of contaminating anything else. Do you think his other selves, his Doctor selves, were holding him back? As in he at some level wanted to be more like them, so tempered his responses, even though for so long he had to make choices they didn't? He knows they remember it, and feel it, but he's living it NOW. Given what we ended up getting, I think that's as likely as anything. Even at his worst I'm sure he felt conflicted.
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Post by tuigirl on Oct 2, 2019 18:17:25 GMT
There is to hope... but there is an idiot born every day.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2019 18:19:31 GMT
There is to hope... but there is an idiot born every day.
I know i bought it i needed a box
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2019 18:45:48 GMT
There is to hope... but there is an idiot born every day.
They should have listed it as War Doctor & Scientist Dalek Time War AWOL Set.
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Post by barnabaslives on Oct 3, 2019 1:51:13 GMT
That gave me a very good laugh (thanks), but of course there must be someone out there with figures and no box looking to put the two together to make a complete collectible.
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