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Post by Thebogiehole on Nov 20, 2019 12:13:43 GMT
"Nicholas the Bloody" is a myth propagated by the Bolsheviks, just as most of what people think they know about Marie Antoinette is lies made up by the revolutionaries after her death.
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Post by Digi on Nov 20, 2019 13:07:26 GMT
"Nicholas the Bloody" is a myth propagated by the Bolsheviks, [snipping out the Marie Antoinette bit because it's irrelevant to this thread] I'm sorry, but -- as an historian by education/degree -- this is utter nonsense. Yes, Soviet rule was 70 years of horror to which the crimes of Nicholas don't hold a candle. But that doesn't erase the fact that as a result of both his actions and inactions, Nicholas's hands were very, very bloody indeed. He doesn't get a pass just because his successors were worse.
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Post by Thebogiehole on Nov 20, 2019 13:15:15 GMT
Lenin could have ransomed the Romanovs. You can do a lot more for yourself, your Party and your Revolution with pounds sterling than you can with corpses.
the daughters and the servants had committed no crime and the Tsarevich was a feeble and helpless hemophiliac.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2019 14:03:43 GMT
I'm not in to Lenin apologia either, but Nicholas II was no Saint! So it's swings and roundabouts. Of course, the Bolsheviks killing the Tsar, his wife and children in that basement was not a great deed and maybe not even necessary to the cause, but it did foreshadow what was to come under soviet rule. All of which is probably best debated somewhere other than a Doctor Who forum!
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Post by fingersmash on Nov 20, 2019 14:40:54 GMT
So can we all just sit down and agree that no one was right during the Russian Revolution, Lenin and Nicholas II were both really ineffective leaders that led to Stalin who is straight-up one of the worst (I don't want to say evil but if there were anyone to call evil...) men in history, and this story might be one of the most interesting historicals BF has ever produced?
But if we're on the topic of Russian rulers, I'd like a Catherine the Great historical. She's a rad lady.
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Post by Ela on Nov 20, 2019 15:49:59 GMT
I'm not nataliesalat, but I didn't read her comment as a direct response to yours, to be perfectly honest. But I guess she can let you know if it is. I apologize for my reaction if it wasn't, but I didn't see anything else she could have been responding to. Maybe she's just expressing an opinion about the subject. Not every post is a reaction to someone else's post.
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Post by J.A. Prentice on Nov 20, 2019 19:17:16 GMT
I apologize for my reaction if it wasn't, but I didn't see anything else she could have been responding to. Maybe she's just expressing an opinion about the subject. Not every post is a reaction to someone else's post. What was the "Lenin apologia" she was complaining about then? She's made two posts since, both on this subject, and hasn't said she wasn't talking to me or apologized for implying I'm a fan of dictators and child murder. I think she can speak for herself.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2019 20:48:49 GMT
Maybe she's just expressing an opinion about the subject. Not every post is a reaction to someone else's post. What was the "Lenin apologia" she was complaining about then? She's made two posts since, both on this subject, and hasn't said she wasn't talking to me or apologized for implying I'm a fan of dictators and child murder. I think she can speak for herself. Exactly. I think it is naive to suggest her comment wasn't a reaction to what you had said. & it is very telling that she hasn't attempted to clarify.
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Post by Digi on Nov 20, 2019 21:15:01 GMT
I'm just going to give a nudge here that I hope we can keep this thread mostly on-topic, without delving into the intentions--whether perceived or accurate--of other posters.
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Post by J.A. Prentice on Nov 20, 2019 22:08:49 GMT
To assist with the nudging, I wonder if the Dalek story is to smooth over Hartnell’s line in Dalek Invasion of Earth about their encounter with the Daleks on Skaro being far in their future (which didn’t make much sense even then).
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Post by constonks on Nov 20, 2019 22:33:07 GMT
To assist with the nudging, I wonder if the Dalek story is to smooth over Hartnell’s line in Dalek Invasion of Earth about their encounter with the Daleks on Skaro being far in their future (which didn’t make much sense even then). That's an interesting thought! I always assumed the Doc was just guessing - and very badly, too.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2019 2:02:36 GMT
To assist with the nudging, I wonder if the Dalek story is to smooth over Hartnell’s line in Dalek Invasion of Earth about their encounter with the Daleks on Skaro being far in their future (which didn’t make much sense even then). That's an interesting thought! I always assumed the Doc was just guessing - and very badly, too. Yeah, it struck me as an odd twist-of-the-arm to try and uncork what must've seemed a closed book at the time. I like Terrance Dicks's Occam's Razor explanation (in the novelisation) that there were other colonies on Skaro, but I really like The Power/Curse of the Daleks's implication that they fell into dormancy. On nominal life support. Davros's support chariot had backup systems to keep him suspended indefinitely, why not the Daleks? There's a terrifying thought to consider: the entire city and its inhabitants weren't destroyed -- they're just sleeping.
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Post by Thebogiehole on Dec 23, 2019 11:32:14 GMT
My last comment on the Romanov story is that I hope they don't indulge in the Hammer Horror caricature of Rasputin's life. Sometimes "X was female instead" can be a useful counterfactual - like if a fourth Grand Duchess had been born to Nicholas II and Alexandra instead of a feeble hemophiliac boy, you don't get the whole Rasputin mess, and the Revolution, and the events leading up to it, are completely changed.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2019 11:45:00 GMT
My last comment on the Romanov story is that I hope they don't indulge in the Hammer Horror caricature of Rasputin's life. Sometimes "X was female instead" can be a useful counterfactual - like if a fourth Grand Duchess had been born to Nicholas II and Alexandra instead of a feeble hemophiliac boy, you don't get the whole Rasputin mess, and the Revolution, and the events leading up to it, are completely changed. If it’s any consolation, the last time Big Finish tackled Rasputin was in a rather respectful way. As an eccentric outsider who might have the best intentions but ultimately had his flaws. I have every faith they’ll tackle the Romanovs in the same way rather than rely on caricature.
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Post by number13 on Mar 2, 2020 0:22:35 GMT
This thread now needs to be renamed 'Not ReallytheFirst Doctor Adventures Volumes 4 and 5'...
{Spoiler} Or not, not in a million years!
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
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Post by lidar2 on Mar 2, 2020 16:41:55 GMT
This thread now needs to be renamed 'Not ReallytheFirst Doctor Adventures Volumes 4 and 5'...
{Spoiler} Or not, not in a million years! That's a rather cryptic comment, I can only guess it's a spoiler for last night's episode? Hope it's not, I was trying to avoid any spoilers ...
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Post by dannybl on Mar 2, 2020 17:36:02 GMT
This thread now needs to be renamed 'Not ReallytheFirst Doctor Adventures Volumes 4 and 5'...
{Spoiler} Or not, not in a million years! At first I thought this was a pop at David Bradley being not Wiliam Hartnell lol !!
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Post by number13 on Mar 3, 2020 12:39:05 GMT
This thread now needs to be renamed 'Not ReallytheFirst Doctor Adventures Volumes 4 and 5'...
{Spoiler} Or not, not in a million years! At first I thought this was a pop at David Bradley being not Wiliam Hartnell lol !! Never from me - I think he's an excellent First Doctor! And these BF sets are a great new range.
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Post by dannybl on Mar 3, 2020 12:42:35 GMT
Oh I love them! Same with the Third Doctor with Tim Treloar and friends
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Post by number13 on Mar 3, 2020 12:48:26 GMT
Oh I love them! Same with the Third Doctor with Tim Treloar and friends Oh the 3DAs are magnificent - it's my era of Who and hearing it come back to life after so long is a treat. Especially now the Brigadier is on duty again! The mix of classic voices and new actors in classic roles is a triumph imo, I just wish we could have two sets a year. At least!
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