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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2020 15:19:34 GMT
I know this sort of thing rubs certain sections of fandom the wrong way, but I'd like to offer it all the same. As an American of Indian descent that grew up loving Doctor Who in the 80s, I'm genuinely sharing in that feeling with Sacha. My jaw hit the ground with the surprise revelation, but after the credits rolled, I sat back and reflected on the cultural significance of it. Seeing him as the character (and instantly credible!!) really meant a lot to me.
It's amazing to see the leaps and bounds that Doctor Who has made over the last several years. Sure, we can rightfully express opinions on scripts, performances, etc., but I truly appreciate the sentiment behind these creative choices and the willingness to consider and explore them.
He won me over right away. I've already rewatched it twice, and it's great to see new things in his performance as "O" - what seemed like it could be a little crush on the Doctor turned out to be just that, but in a way that reflected their long and strange history together. I can't wait to see what he does next and have high hopes that the series can continue this incredible momentum.
Like many others, I would add that I have in the past thought how Lenny Henry would make a great Doctor Who. Absolutely nothing to do with so called 'token representation' just an uncontroversial case of having in mind a good actor with talent, versatility (can do serious and light) and 'star quality' the same way Jon Pertwee brought to the role 50 years ago. He is also sorely underappreciated these days, from being something of a national treasure back in the day. Great to see Sacha Dhawan embrace the role - he is a quality actor and I would be suspicious of any fans looking to find faults with his casting.
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Post by tuigirl on Jan 4, 2020 20:11:27 GMT
Re-watching this. Now I am going to put up some predictions of my own concerning the plot... {Spoiler} First of all, having freeze-framed some of it, I am on the side of people who suspect "the aliens" are indeed the Cybermen, or at least a bastardized version of the Master's (hence they are not entirely without emotions). I further suspect that this is the first time the Master experiments with the Cybermen and that the Master we see is actually the incarnation BEFORE Missy. Just think of it- the Master teams up with the Cybermen 3 times. First, it is the Simm Master on the generation ship (series 10), where he is not really in control of them at all. Then comes the series 12 Master, getting some improvements in. And finally Missy, having "mastered" the control of the Cybermen and able to provide the Doctor with a willing army. All this in a very timey-whimey string of events. Could make sense... As for what is real or not in this episode... Am I right to suspect that
{Spoiler} the second half of the episode happened entirely inside the Master's TARDIS? I wonder where this started... because I also suspect the "alien" coming into the Doctor's TARDIS is not really real, is it? Maybe we will get a whole series playing out inside the Master's TARDIS and none of it turns out to be real? This all being inside the Master's TARDIS would also give him the power to manipulate everything and basically make everything a lie.
Well, I am really curious how they are going to resolve this. Will find out in a couple of nights time...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2020 21:56:05 GMT
Didn't I say? Didn't I say?
I think if I am proven right about this, then I should get a congratulatory Divergent Universe cake or something.
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Post by tuigirl on Jan 4, 2020 22:18:46 GMT
Didn't I say? Didn't I say?
I think if I am proven right about this, then I should get a congratulatory Divergent Universe cake or something.
We will find out tomorrow. Or in my case, Monday. I at least try and keep away from spoilers this time. Even if the suspense is killing me.
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Post by notawerewolf99 on Jan 4, 2020 22:37:15 GMT
Didn't I say? Didn't I say?
I think if I am proven right about this, then I should get a congratulatory Divergent Universe cake or something.
Chibnall's been redefining Who, though. Personally, I'm VERY confident that the entities are going to be something new and we've had nearly fifteen years of Who being self-referential ("This is Doctor Who"), regardless of the pieces on the board. It's time for new stuff. It's not as if we're going to be short of callbacks this series, either.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2020 23:04:03 GMT
Didn't I say? Didn't I say?
I think if I am proven right about this, then I should get a congratulatory Divergent Universe cake or something.
Chibnall's been redefining Who, though. Personally, I'm VERY confident that the entities are going to be something new and we've had nearly fifteen years of Who being self-referential ("This is Doctor Who"), regardless of the pieces on the board. It's time for new stuff. It's not as if we're going to be short of callbacks this series, either. I'm hoping that we're going to get a good mix of the best of both worlds (new and old), though I have higher hopes for the big bad of the series to be a classic series villain on a truly cosmic scale (I'm very much keeping my fingers crossed that Tim Shaw is still in the deep freeze). 😊
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2020 0:34:38 GMT
Chibnall's been redefining Who, though. Personally, I'm VERY confident that the entities are going to be something new and we've had nearly fifteen years of Who being self-referential ("This is Doctor Who"), regardless of the pieces on the board. It's time for new stuff. It's not as if we're going to be short of callbacks this series, either. I'm hoping that we're going to get a good mix of the best of both worlds (new and old), though I have higher hopes for the big bad of the series to be a classic series villain on a truly cosmic scale (I'm very much keeping my fingers crossed that Tim Shaw is still in the deep freeze). 😊 Yes, there is this odd thing where fans think a returning character or monster from years ago will be offputting to the newer audience when, really, it's all new to them anyway. When we met, say, the Silurians in S5 no-one was going to be lost because they weren't up to snuff on their Pertwee knowledge. It's only when a returnee relies on the audience knowing their story it becomes an issue, like Blofeld in Spectre or Khan in Star Trek Into Darkness. Who has done a generally excellent job of reintroducing the classic elements, I'd say. Of course it's exciting to get new iconic monsters that stick with us like the Weeping Angels and The Silence. Chibnall has yet to give us something like that - as you say Tim Shaw was not going to fit the bill. He was a (and Nucleus, I don't mean this disparagingly!) CBBC villain the likes of which Sarah Jane would face in her show aimed at younger kids, not a Doctor Who series big bad. We heard about the evil deeds Tim's race had done...but in person he was a somewhat silly looking character who the Doctor mocked rather than feared. Not much tension there! If The Doctor isn't breaking a sweat in the climax of the series, why should the audience be on the edge of their seats? People did sometimes grumble about the "everything but the kitchen sink" finales of RTD and Moffat but they were at least memorable. I'd argue the finale of S11, as I said last week, was the most forgettable episode of the season which is a problem! The Stenza were just...nothing. It reminded me of TNG thinking the Ferengi would be big bads, then they never caught on so they became comic foils, or Trek Voyager with The Kazon, a new race intended to be the new Klingons that fans just didn't take to. Tim Shaw was just not narratively interesting enough to bookend a series. Hopefully S12 changes that - we're off to a flyer of a cliffhanger and Matt Srevens said he'd describe the series as climactic so...hopes are high here! We've not got anyone here actively rooting for anything but top drawer Doctor Who!
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Post by notawerewolf99 on Jan 5, 2020 1:03:51 GMT
Chibnall's been redefining Who, though. Personally, I'm VERY confident that the entities are going to be something new and we've had nearly fifteen years of Who being self-referential ("This is Doctor Who"), regardless of the pieces on the board. It's time for new stuff. It's not as if we're going to be short of callbacks this series, either. I'm hoping that we're going to get a good mix of the best of both worlds (new and old), though I have higher hopes for the big bad of the series to be a classic series villain on a truly cosmic scale (I'm very much keeping my fingers crossed that Tim Shaw is still in the deep freeze). 😊 Personally, give or take, I could do without legacy elements for a little longer. The original series always pushed forward and while it's understandable that the twenty-first century series would have more comebacks - it's a completely different audience and there is far more competitive media for kid's attentions nowadays - and RTD understandably pulled on Who's unique tone to establish the show (the original series was never quite as self-conscious about itself as the new series, The Five Doctors aside and even then, it wasn't quite as pronounced), I do think the new series has rested on it's laurels somewhat, rather then doing it's own thing with the franchise. Love or leave him, for me, Chibnall was right to strip the show down to it's bare essentials and step away from the mythos. Kazo's indifference to the name Time Lord was a welcome turn for me in Rosa and the promise of antagonists beyond all that we know is an exciting (and necessary) development. On a side note, there's still plenty of potential in the Stenza and we don't know how they feature in the Chibnall master plan yet. 'Tim Shaw' served his purpose last year in being a lower class villian for Thirteen to pit her wits against. Now, she has to touch the fire again.
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Post by notawerewolf99 on Jan 5, 2020 7:16:29 GMT
I'm hoping that we're going to get a good mix of the best of both worlds (new and old), though I have higher hopes for the big bad of the series to be a classic series villain on a truly cosmic scale (I'm very much keeping my fingers crossed that Tim Shaw is still in the deep freeze). 😊 Yes, there is this odd thing where fans think a returning character or monster from years ago will be offputting to the newer audience when, really, it's all new to them anyway. When we met, say, the Silurians in S5 no-one was going to be lost because they weren't up to snuff on their Pertwee knowledge. It's only when a returnee relies on the audience knowing their story it becomes an issue, like Blofeld in Spectre or Khan in Star Trek Into Darkness. Who has done a generally excellent job of reintroducing the classic elements, I'd say. Of course it's exciting to get new iconic monsters that stick with us like the Weeping Angels and The Silence. Chibnall has yet to give us something like that - as you say Tim Shaw was not going to fit the bill. He was a (and Nucleus, I don't mean this disparagingly!) CBBC villain the likes of which Sarah Jane would face in her show aimed at younger kids, not a Doctor Who series big bad. We heard about the evil deeds Tim's race had done...but in person he was a somewhat silly looking character who the Doctor mocked rather than feared. Not much tension there! If The Doctor isn't breaking a sweat in the climax of the series, why should the audience be on the edge of their seats? People did sometimes grumble about the "everything but the kitchen sink" finales of RTD and Moffat but they were at least memorable. I'd argue the finale of S11, as I said last week, was the most forgettable episode of the season which is a problem! The Stenza were just...nothing. It reminded me of TNG thinking the Ferengi would be big bads, then they never caught on so they became comic foils, or Trek Voyager with The Kazon, a new race intended to be the new Klingons that fans just didn't take to. Tim Shaw was just not narratively interesting enough to bookend a series. Hopefully S12 changes that - we're off to a flyer of a cliffhanger and Matt Srevens said he'd describe the series as climactic so...hopes are high here! We've not got anyone here actively rooting for anything but top drawer Doctor Who! Oh, I think you would be foolish not to pull on Who's vast mythology. It's brilliant, it's a gestalt of creativity and great ideas and Who should always be accessible. But, when you don't define the show on your own terms and push forward, that's a problem. Both RTD and Moffatt were brilliant showrunners with incredible insight and creativity, who brought Who back into the mainstream and public consciousness and kept it there for thirteen years, ushering a new generation of fans. But, both, I'd argue are guilty over looking too far into the past, if not in content, then in the telling of their stories.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2020 10:47:45 GMT
Didn't I say? Didn't I say?
I think if I am proven right about this, then I should get a congratulatory Divergent Universe cake or something.
We will find out tomorrow. Or in my case, Monday. I at least try and keep away from spoilers this time. Even if the suspense is killing me.
I won't find out until Wednesday. I can't tell you how difficult it will be avoiding spoilers (not that spoilers bother me too much, if I'm honest). My main grievance is that I'll have to delay enjoying the second part of one of my favourite stories for a long time.
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Post by tuigirl on Jan 5, 2020 10:53:36 GMT
We will find out tomorrow. Or in my case, Monday. I at least try and keep away from spoilers this time. Even if the suspense is killing me.
I won't find out until Wednesday. I can't tell you how difficult it will be avoiding spoilers (not that spoilers bother me too much, if I'm honest). My main grievance is that I'll have to delay enjoying the second part of one of my favourite stories for a long time. I know the feeling. I am dependent on when iTunes provides the episodes. They mostly manage to put them up over night, but sometimes there are hiccups and it is very frustrating to be looking forward to some thing all day and then finding out you have to wait more days. A couple of days in 2018 it took full 5 days until I could watch it. Fingers crossed...
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Jan 6, 2020 16:41:53 GMT
So now I've had time to process it more, as well as see the second part. What do I think now?
I think Part One works well enough - looks terrific from a production standpoint, sets up a decent enough mystery to get the series rolling, everybody has something to do and the twist does work (unlike davy, I didn't pay much heed to 'spymaster', so either I'm just inattentive or Chib genuinely misdirected me). It is very nakedly in love with the 70s era, specifically the Pertwee-UNIT days - a rollicking thrill ride filled with duplicity, suits and chases. Also, while I get the cackling did annoy some and seemed too close to Simm, I found it more like Ainley - it's more shamelessly indulgent in his control, than maverick psychotic like Simm's would be. Dhawan's eagerness helped smooth it over, for me.
Where it comes up short is in some of its execution - I forgave Chibnall's dialogue habits last season as it did dial down as the series went on. Here, it is exposition city and it could've used some trimming. It ends up making the plot feel more bloated than it actually is, with all this chatter. Furthermore, Stone by no means does a bad job directing, and he stages the cliffhangar well, but I think he's paced the story wrong. It moves too fast and doesn't find a proper rhythmn until the casino sequence. Maybe he's trying to go for something akin to Martin Campbell, but it doesn't suit the material very well, and it hurts some genuinely strong moments like Ryan on the court or Graham having his checkup and thinkign abotu Grace.
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Post by number13 on Jan 8, 2020 23:59:25 GMT
This is well after the event but I thought I'd wait until I'd seen part 2 (last night, finally!) Apologies for repeating anyone's comments, I really am late with this.
(Comments here on Part 1 only. Part 2 on that thread.)
I loved it, a terrific slice of 'put your feet up with the last of the Christmas munchies' entertainment for New Year's Day with hardly a pause for breath in amongst all the action, locations and star guests. The 'Bond' homages were all much appreciated and I thought the filming and soundtrack were first class and the globetrotting sweep of the episode gave it a proper big-screen feel. (Toto, I don't think we're in Lime Grove any more! )
I find it difficult to pick a highlight (yes there was THAT MOMENT but I'm coming to that ) but the arrival of the 'fam' in black tie at the party and the Doctor playing snap at the Baccarat table were delights! And the music went full pseudo-Bond at that point too, so well done. All the regulars were excellent and thank goodness Yaz also got a really good storyline to play in this one. The sense of isolation in the 'otherworld' was very unsettling indeed, a good contrast with the spy action main plot.
Anything I didn't like - just odd details really. I thought the hosepipes hanging out from the bottom of the TARDIS in the car workshop was a daft idea. Yaz' senior officer might have moaned about losing her from his team again, but he couldn't have objected to orders from higher-up. And how did Yaz and Ryan not think there would be a camera watching them as they were turning over the VOR office when they'd already deactivated cameras in the corridor? The aliens were a bit nondescript but I guess the idea was to show them as intrusions into our reality, and how do you depict that?
OK it's time for THAT MOMENT. I was convinced, totally convinced that Lenny Henry was playing the Master! He had the modus operandi and the beard! and I thought the 7% alien DNA was a left-over from an imperfect use of the Arch to disguise him as human to slip under the radar of UNIT/The Doctor/whoever (and maybe to mislead his mysterious alien allies.) And then Sacha Dhawan, nice Mr. O, dropped the smile and the charm and oh Rassilon, it's HIM! Brilliant misdirection - and one heck of a cliffhanger ending to follow the reveal.
Now that's what I call a series opener!
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Post by stcoop on Jan 9, 2020 16:16:43 GMT
Not as impressive as 'Dracula' basically doubling it's viewers but the Live + 7 Days figure for Part 1 bring it up to 6.7 million, which should comfortably pass 7 million by the +28 days figure.
Obviously less than the first episode of last series but just beats the first episode of Series 10. (Which is impressive when you consider the ratings drops across TV in general in the almost 3 years since then.)
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2020 16:58:54 GMT
Not as impressive as 'Dracula' basically doubling it's viewers but the Live + 7 Days figure for Part 1 bring it up to 6.7 million, which should comfortably pass 7 million by the +28 days figure. Obviously less than the first episode of last series but just beats the first episode of Series 10. (Which is impressive when you consider the ratings drops across TV in general in the almost 3 years since then.) The people saying Dracula's numbers were incredibly low were always talking out their backsides. We saw this exact pattern with Luther last year, when people are told all over the place it's being shown over three (midweek) nights, a lot of them are just going to wait for the weekend and binge it rather than have to be in front of the TV for three nights. That some outlets don't understand that trend in 2020 makes me think they really shouldn't be commenting on media. Or depending on the origin if it's just "BBC Bad" propoganda.
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Post by mark687 on Jan 14, 2020 0:01:07 GMT
Not as impressive as 'Dracula' basically doubling it's viewers but the Live + 7 Days figure for Part 1 bring it up to 6.7 million, which should comfortably pass 7 million by the +28 days figure. Obviously less than the first episode of last series but just beats the first episode of Series 10. (Which is impressive when you consider the ratings drops across TV in general in the almost 3 years since then.) Official 7 Days Figures are DW 6.89 million Dracula 6.99 million (Every little helps ) Regards mark687
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Feb 15, 2020 14:54:15 GMT
28 days figure is 7.4 million.
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