|
Post by ollychops on Jan 1, 2020 20:58:15 GMT
Put my thoughts below but they contain numerous serious spoilers so you've been warned: {Spoiler} Honestly, I think there were a few pros in this episode and an awful lot of cons.
Let's start with the good. As always with Chibnall the emotional stuff felt excellent, Yaz's tears got me and the whole give Ryan the number thing really felt like these characters have interesting, complex and normal relationships. Which is always a plus. Most importantly for me, the emotional moments felt genuine. I got a sense last series of the emotional moments being crowbared into the story. The plot itself would just stop and you'd get your set emotional time and then it would continue, without much importance or consequence. But this episode didn't feel like that. It was integrated nicely into the plot and whilst Yaz seemed a bit shakier I'm sure the consequences of that will come in the next episode. Yaz and Ryan were both acted wonderfully this episode which is great too!
As others have mentioned, the music was pretty good and nicely referenced the 007 films.
But for me, that's where a lot of the good stuff ends. One third of the episode felt like a pointless A to B of getting the Doctor to work for MI6, all that should've been needed was a ring from UNIT, a brief exposition dump or move the attack on the Doctor in the TARDIS starting the episode off and having her go to UNIT. But because that's gone (for no good reason), that's out of the question. And instead we got a pretty boring runaround for that first third, with a pretty mediocrely acted cameo by Fry. Everything seemed to soar when the party scene started, great music, great action and theeeeeeeen, that reveal.
This portrayal of the Master as a mad lunatic is a bit boring, we've seen it with Simm and early Missy, it's done. I was doubly disappointed because if I'm honest, I thought O was not well acted at all and was waiting for him to go! So for him to become an actor of a new incarnation, well, I'll just say I hope this one becomes a one and done incarnation like Roberts. I think it's significantly worse given only 2ish years ago we had The Doctor Falls, a fantastic episode which killed off the Master in a way a lot of people seemed to love. So to bring back the Master for anything less than an excellent story with an incarnation which gave a fresh breath of life is a real shame.
I felt Jodie was also subpar, she's a great actress but there's very little interesting material here for her this episode and I think this Doctor (which needed to convince the annoying people who thought a female Doctor wouldn't work) is probably going down as a missed opportunity if things don't improve, although I think if the 7th Doctor shows anything, it's that sudden changes can happen and I'd love to see Jodie get much better material.
Bradley Walsh seemed a bit off this episode, but he's been the best thing for me about the new series so I'm looking forward to more of him.
My biggest concern is that as with series 11 you'll be able to see which episodes the budget went to. This episode felt very cinematic, but I'm worried that future episodes won't get the money they deserve. Think of Tsuranga Conundrum- the episode of corridors and an invisible prop being repeated!
As someone who's been rewatching a lot of the Pertwee years maybe these issues seemed a lot more prominent to me and a spy-esque story didn't seem too special for that reason perhaps, but all told, a bit of a let-down. Chibnall referenced early Master stories, he should know how they should be done! I have to agree with you regarding the bouncing around to get to A to B. It never really settled down until midway through the episode, they just seemed to be going from one place to another fairly quickly just to get to the point of the episode, whereas it could have been cut down and could have been far more streamlined. It does rather feel like they shot themselves in the foot by getting rid of UNIT.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2020 21:00:04 GMT
I'd like to hope there's more going on here. Just having Missy's redemption be chucked under the bus for another ranting loony mad Master would be a step backwards. When the characters last met they were on the best terms in dozens of lives for each of them. Would seem odd to just retcon that. Still, we don't know what's happening just yet - The Master leaving with the "everything you know is a lie" brings me hope there's something else under this reveal that is yet to play out. We don't even know, I suppose, this is a post-Missy Master. The reveal was so unexpected & fun for me that I didn't think about that until later. But I agree about the problem with this being a post-Missy Master. I always thought that end for her was such a perfect way to give a send off for the Master. Dying at their own hands rather than turn good. Of course Moffat did give any future showrunner some wiggle room by not showing the regeneration from Simm to Gomez. All we need is a quick throwaway line from the Master, "so you're a woman now, I must try that sometime". Yeah, I think it's entirely possible to write around it. I don't have a problem with an evil Master but if this is pre-Gomez I think it does keep the characterisation tidier and doesn't retcon her arc. There's also the chance it is post-Missy and there's something in the "everything you know is a lie" thing, and Sacha can easily play much darker and more sombre - what looked panto in 2mins could easily be just his joy at fooling The Doc, then he calms the beans. I'm on board with the casting anyway. Terrific actor and a high profile get for the show. I like that unlike the Simm reveal this didn't need to be spoiled as it's New Year's Day so ratings are gonna be fine anyway, even for the casuals, so no need to spoil anything. Depending on the "lie" that Sacha refers to, he may not even be The Master. It's all still to play for, part 1 of 2 and even then we've got 8 more to go. Could be Omega for all we know, pretending to be The Master. Roll on Sunday.
|
|
|
Post by scriptortempore on Jan 1, 2020 21:02:11 GMT
Put my thoughts below but they contain numerous serious spoilers so you've been warned: {Spoiler} Honestly, I think there were a few pros in this episode and an awful lot of cons.
Let's start with the good. As always with Chibnall the emotional stuff felt excellent, Yaz's tears got me and the whole give Ryan the number thing really felt like these characters have interesting, complex and normal relationships. Which is always a plus. Most importantly for me, the emotional moments felt genuine. I got a sense last series of the emotional moments being crowbared into the story. The plot itself would just stop and you'd get your set emotional time and then it would continue, without much importance or consequence. But this episode didn't feel like that. It was integrated nicely into the plot and whilst Yaz seemed a bit shakier I'm sure the consequences of that will come in the next episode. Yaz and Ryan were both acted wonderfully this episode which is great too!
As others have mentioned, the music was pretty good and nicely referenced the 007 films.
But for me, that's where a lot of the good stuff ends. One third of the episode felt like a pointless A to B of getting the Doctor to work for MI6, all that should've been needed was a ring from UNIT, a brief exposition dump or move the attack on the Doctor in the TARDIS starting the episode off and having her go to UNIT. But because that's gone (for no good reason), that's out of the question. And instead we got a pretty boring runaround for that first third, with a pretty mediocrely acted cameo by Fry. Everything seemed to soar when the party scene started, great music, great action and theeeeeeeen, that reveal.
This portrayal of the Master as a mad lunatic is a bit boring, we've seen it with Simm and early Missy, it's done. I was doubly disappointed because if I'm honest, I thought O was not well acted at all and was waiting for him to go! So for him to become an actor of a new incarnation, well, I'll just say I hope this one becomes a one and done incarnation like Roberts. I think it's significantly worse given only 2ish years ago we had The Doctor Falls, a fantastic episode which killed off the Master in a way a lot of people seemed to love. So to bring back the Master for anything less than an excellent story with an incarnation which gave a fresh breath of life is a real shame.
I felt Jodie was also subpar, she's a great actress but there's very little interesting material here for her this episode and I think this Doctor (which needed to convince the annoying people who thought a female Doctor wouldn't work) is probably going down as a missed opportunity if things don't improve, although I think if the 7th Doctor shows anything, it's that sudden changes can happen and I'd love to see Jodie get much better material.
Bradley Walsh seemed a bit off this episode, but he's been the best thing for me about the new series so I'm looking forward to more of him.
My biggest concern is that as with series 11 you'll be able to see which episodes the budget went to. This episode felt very cinematic, but I'm worried that future episodes won't get the money they deserve. Think of Tsuranga Conundrum- the episode of corridors and an invisible prop being repeated!
As someone who's been rewatching a lot of the Pertwee years maybe these issues seemed a lot more prominent to me and a spy-esque story didn't seem too special for that reason perhaps, but all told, a bit of a let-down. Chibnall referenced early Master stories, he should know how they should be done! I have to agree with you regarding the bouncing around to get to A to B. It never really settled down until midway through the episode, they just seemed to be going from one place to another fairly quickly just to get to the point of the episode, whereas it could have been cut down and could have been far more streamlined. It does rather feel like they shot themselves in the foot by getting rid of UNIT. Poparena did a good analysis of the consequences of getting rid of the sonic for classic who, in which the plot just can grind to a halt for the sake of the serialised format, which I'd recommend checking out [first video of his series Crossing the Wilderness]. But I don't mind that if it's earned. My favourite era is the Hartnell era so I'm not opposed to some good serialised storytelling! But this is based on a throwaway joke line in the last NY special, that's not earned imo.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2020 21:02:27 GMT
And frankly gobsmacked that no-one has mentioned Stephen Fry is reprising a character he played over 30 years ago! Control (C) and Tony were some of the best Fry And Laurie sketches.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2020 21:15:03 GMT
And with this Master having explicitly met The Doctor in a pre-Jodie incarnation.....well, when does Sacha do that BF story and what Doc was it?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2020 21:19:34 GMT
And with this Master having explicitly met The Doctor in a pre-Jodie incarnation.....well, when does Sacha do that BF story and what Doc was it? I wondered if it was a cheeky reference to Sacha playing opposite David Bradley's First Doctor in 'Adventures in Time and Space.'
|
|
|
Post by sherlock on Jan 1, 2020 21:22:17 GMT
I feel like Spyfall addressed some of my gripes with Series 11. The dialogue seemed more natural, Whittaker’s eccentricities reined in a bit, some nice touches of continuity (plus the Big Reveal) and the companions seemed to get more to do each.
The monsters were effective and the plot seems promising so far. The cinematography looked just as good as Series 11 and Akinola’s music worked well.
Series 12 has started with a bang.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2020 21:22:19 GMT
And with this Master having explicitly met The Doctor in a pre-Jodie incarnation.....well, when does Sacha do that BF story and what Doc was it? I wondered if it was a cheeky reference to Sacha playing opposite David Bradley's First Doctor in 'Adventures in Time and Space.' You're messing with canon here and the Tardis Wikia police will be along any minute!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2020 21:30:32 GMT
Put my thoughts below but they contain numerous serious spoilers so you've been warned: {Spoiler} Honestly, I think there were a few pros in this episode and an awful lot of cons.
Let's start with the good. As always with Chibnall the emotional stuff felt excellent, Yaz's tears got me and the whole give Ryan the number thing really felt like these characters have interesting, complex and normal relationships. Which is always a plus. Most importantly for me, the emotional moments felt genuine. I got a sense last series of the emotional moments being crowbared into the story. The plot itself would just stop and you'd get your set emotional time and then it would continue, without much importance or consequence. But this episode didn't feel like that. It was integrated nicely into the plot and whilst Yaz seemed a bit shakier I'm sure the consequences of that will come in the next episode. Yaz and Ryan were both acted wonderfully this episode which is great too!
As others have mentioned, the music was pretty good and nicely referenced the 007 films.
But for me, that's where a lot of the good stuff ends. One third of the episode felt like a pointless A to B of getting the Doctor to work for MI6, all that should've been needed was a ring from UNIT, a brief exposition dump or move the attack on the Doctor in the TARDIS starting the episode off and having her go to UNIT. But because that's gone (for no good reason), that's out of the question. And instead we got a pretty boring runaround for that first third, with a pretty mediocrely acted cameo by Fry. Everything seemed to soar when the party scene started, great music, great action and theeeeeeeen, that reveal.
This portrayal of the Master as a mad lunatic is a bit boring, we've seen it with Simm and early Missy, it's done. I was doubly disappointed because if I'm honest, I thought O was not well acted at all and was waiting for him to go! So for him to become an actor of a new incarnation, well, I'll just say I hope this one becomes a one and done incarnation like Roberts. I think it's significantly worse given only 2ish years ago we had The Doctor Falls, a fantastic episode which killed off the Master in a way a lot of people seemed to love. So to bring back the Master for anything less than an excellent story with an incarnation which gave a fresh breath of life is a real shame.
I felt Jodie was also subpar, she's a great actress but there's very little interesting material here for her this episode and I think this Doctor (which needed to convince the annoying people who thought a female Doctor wouldn't work) is probably going down as a missed opportunity if things don't improve, although I think if the 7th Doctor shows anything, it's that sudden changes can happen and I'd love to see Jodie get much better material.
Bradley Walsh seemed a bit off this episode, but he's been the best thing for me about the new series so I'm looking forward to more of him.
My biggest concern is that as with series 11 you'll be able to see which episodes the budget went to. This episode felt very cinematic, but I'm worried that future episodes won't get the money they deserve. Think of Tsuranga Conundrum- the episode of corridors and an invisible prop being repeated!
As someone who's been rewatching a lot of the Pertwee years maybe these issues seemed a lot more prominent to me and a spy-esque story didn't seem too special for that reason perhaps, but all told, a bit of a let-down. Chibnall referenced early Master stories, he should know how they should be done! I have to agree with you regarding the bouncing around to get to A to B. It never really settled down until midway through the episode, they just seemed to be going from one place to another fairly quickly just to get to the point of the episode, whereas it could have been cut down and could have been far more streamlined. It does rather feel like they shot themselves in the foot by getting rid of UNIT. I think the UNIT and Torchwood having gone away line was a bit odd, yeah. I mean they may have been disbanded officially but why that would mean people like Kate, Osgood, Jack and Gwen wouldn't still be working off-grid as they have done before I'm not sure. Bit clumsy to have the Government intelligence naysaying the existence of aliens in this timeline, really. Kinda feels - and this isn't neccessarily bad - that Chibnall wants to go back to a pre-RTD kinda world where the general public didn't know about aliens. Though he's quite a Pertwee fan I believe so for UNIT to be so AWOL - this is the second ep in a row their being disbanded is mentioned - is a little strange. Though it's a stroke of the pen to change that all again, I guess.
|
|
|
Post by timegirl on Jan 1, 2020 21:46:27 GMT
I have to agree with you regarding the bouncing around to get to A to B. It never really settled down until midway through the episode, they just seemed to be going from one place to another fairly quickly just to get to the point of the episode, whereas it could have been cut down and could have been far more streamlined. It does rather feel like they shot themselves in the foot by getting rid of UNIT. I think the UNIT and Torchwood having gone away line was a bit odd, yeah. I mean they may have been disbanded officially but why that would mean people like Kate, Osgood, Jack and Gwen wouldn't still be working off-grid as they have done before I'm not sure. Bit clumsy to have the Government intelligence naysaying the existence of aliens in this timeline, really. Kinda feels - and this isn't neccessarily bad - that Chibnall wants to go back to a pre-RTD kinda world where the general public didn't know about aliens. Though he's quite a Pertwee fan I believe so for UNIT to be so AWOL - this is the second ep in a row their being disbanded is mentioned - is a little strange. Though it's a stroke of the pen to change that all again, I guess. Maybe this new incarnation of the Master was the one who had UNIT and Torchwood disbanded 🤔 and there will be a plot thread of 13 and the fam having to recruit and unite both former members of both UNIT and Torchwood into some sort of new group to defend Earth 😀
|
|
|
Post by pazzer on Jan 1, 2020 21:52:38 GMT
Ok lots to unpack. Based on the trailer I expected a Pertwee era episode with bond influences. Instead it just felt like they ripped scenes from a bond movie and it went from one action scene to another. Found the whole episode confusing as there seemed to be lots going on but it never really explained and drew me in. Thought Stephen Fry was wasted. The whole Master reveal was like so what. Was more surprised when John Simm came back and that had been spoiled.
2/10
|
|
|
Post by sherlock on Jan 1, 2020 21:59:10 GMT
I think the UNIT and Torchwood having gone away line was a bit odd, yeah. I mean they may have been disbanded officially but why that would mean people like Kate, Osgood, Jack and Gwen wouldn't still be working off-grid as they have done before I'm not sure. Bit clumsy to have the Government intelligence naysaying the existence of aliens in this timeline, really. Kinda feels - and this isn't neccessarily bad - that Chibnall wants to go back to a pre-RTD kinda world where the general public didn't know about aliens. Though he's quite a Pertwee fan I believe so for UNIT to be so AWOL - this is the second ep in a row their being disbanded is mentioned - is a little strange. Though it's a stroke of the pen to change that all again, I guess. Maybe this new incarnation of the Master was the one who had UNIT and Torchwood disbanded 🤔 and there will be a plot thread of 13 and the fam having to recruit and unite both former members of both UNIT and Torchwood into some sort of new group to defend Earth 😀 We know he’s been on Earth for a while and manipulating the financial disputes to lead to shutdown of an old enemy organisation does sound like the kind of thing he’d do....
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2020 22:02:19 GMT
Maybe this new incarnation of the Master was the one who had UNIT and Torchwood disbanded 🤔 and there will be a plot thread of 13 and the fam having to recruit and unite both former members of both UNIT and Torchwood into some sort of new group to defend Earth 😀 We know he’s been on Earth for a while and manipulating the financial disputes to lead to shutdown of an old enemy organisation does sound like the kind of thing he’d do.... I love all this speculation. I have to say, I'd never thought of that, but it makes sense ...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2020 22:04:06 GMT
Maybe this new incarnation of the Master was the one who had UNIT and Torchwood disbanded 🤔 and there will be a plot thread of 13 and the fam having to recruit and unite both former members of both UNIT and Torchwood into some sort of new group to defend Earth 😀 We know he’s been on Earth for a while and manipulating the financial disputes to lead to shutdown of an old enemy organisation does sound like the kind of thing he’d do.... Missy absolutely toyed with UNIT in both Series 8 and 9 with no subterfuge required, blowing Kate out the sky, killing Osgood and stopping every plane on Earth. I think they'd be small potatoes to The Master now, honestly. I could see it...but out of boredom and spite rather than any sense of a pre-emptive attack in case they stop him.
|
|
|
Post by scriptortempore on Jan 1, 2020 22:08:03 GMT
And with this Master having explicitly met The Doctor in a pre-Jodie incarnation.....well, when does Sacha do that BF story and what Doc was it? I wondered if it was a cheeky reference to Sacha playing opposite David Bradley's First Doctor in 'Adventures in Time and Space.' Ah I knew I'd seen him on something Who related before! Thanks for pointing it out!
|
|
|
Post by Audio Watchdog on Jan 1, 2020 22:10:25 GMT
God that was terrible, badly written, poor production, looks like a cheap cbbc now........... If it’s took a year to produce this, no wonder people are turning to Netflix Everyone trying best with what they got but it looks so cheap and under funded now.........with a stupid story that’s ......well let’s be kind and say it’s written for the budget Very sad, I thought series two would come back fighting instead we got barely a whimper After a terrific run of genre shows on other channels this was well below par i turned it of 10 mins before end, so if that was fantastic production I might have got it wrong See that is just nuts. If Chibnall has done anything for Doctor Who, he has ensured that it looks & sounds fantastic. There is nothing cheap looking about the series under CC.
|
|
|
Post by scriptortempore on Jan 1, 2020 22:11:47 GMT
Quite interested to know what people think might come of the Master playing on the fam's lack of knowledge about the Doctor? Might be starting to cause distrust in the team. But that was done with Clara so I'm not sure it'll be some conscious plan by the Master as it was then.
|
|
|
Post by timegirl on Jan 1, 2020 22:19:23 GMT
Quite interested to know what people think might come of the Master playing on the fam's lack of knowledge about the Doctor? Might be starting to cause distrust in the team. But that was done with Clara so I'm not sure it'll be some conscious plan by the Master as it was then. What if part of the fam gets tempted to join the Master as his companion🤔
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2020 22:24:47 GMT
Well, if we're doing our own fantasy what-ifs.. When we left Missy she would have no reason to want to hate The Doctor as s/he did before, regen or not, so I'd really like the "everything is lies" thing to flip it with a bigger reveal. Who has The Doctor actually left that hateful and with the power to pull off a big deal plan and knowledge of other worlds and Universes? Well....he did depose and throw Rassilon into exile! Maybe Rassilon is using exactly who The Doctor and the audience would expect to see as the MASTERmind against her? That's my fanjodrell for this ep.
|
|
|
Post by nucleusofswarm on Jan 1, 2020 22:26:44 GMT
God that was terrible, badly written, poor production, looks like a cheap cbbc now........... If it’s took a year to produce this, no wonder people are turning to Netflix Everyone trying best with what they got but it looks so cheap and under funded now.........with a stupid story that’s ......well let’s be kind and say it’s written for the budget Very sad, I thought series two would come back fighting instead we got barely a whimper After a terrific run of genre shows on other channels this was well below par i turned it of 10 mins before end, so if that was fantastic production I might have got it wrong Can you send the names of the CBBC shows with productions, locations and sets like that to me in a PM please? Would love to see them! Obviously mucky's entitled to his opinion, but as someone who works in kids media, I'm not cool with the implication that CBBC shows are inherently shoddy or low quality. Has anyone watched Hetty Feather, Worst Witch, Dumping Ground or even the new Demon Headmaster (written by our own Emma Reeves and Joe Lidster?) - for the budget and time they have to make them, they look very slick and extremely professional. And are legitmately well-written.
Feel free to call Chibnall's stories the biggest P.O.Ss ever, but can we stop using 'cbbc/kids show' as code for 'really sucks'? It's innaccurate and disingenious.
|
|