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Post by J.A. Prentice on Jan 6, 2020 7:41:38 GMT
So the whole thing with Gallifrey being destroyed twice in the EDAs and the Time War seems a lot less ridiculous now. It also accidentally matches quite well with my "the Time War/Gallifrey's destruction is inevitable and every time one version is averted another takes it place." I'm hoping this destruction is less total. More "Gallifrey is gone, but there are still Time Lords out there" and less "Last of Her Kind." Mostly because I'd quite like to see the Monk or Romana back.
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Post by notawerewolf99 on Jan 6, 2020 8:41:13 GMT
So the whole thing with Gallifrey being destroyed twice in the EDAs and the Time War seems a lot less ridiculous now. It also accidentally matches quite well with my "the Time War/Gallifrey's destruction is inevitable and every time one version is averted another takes it place." I'm hoping this destruction is less total. More "Gallifrey is gone, but there are still Time Lords out there" and less "Last of Her Kind." Mostly because I'd quite like to see the Monk or Romana back. I very much doubt all the Time Lords are gone. How they react being forced to interact with the wider universe without their godly powers that hates and fears them and how it ties into the wider arc is going to be VERY interesting. Might we see a certain Meddling Monk in the near future?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2020 8:45:22 GMT
So the whole thing with Gallifrey being destroyed twice in the EDAs and the Time War seems a lot less ridiculous now. It also accidentally matches quite well with my "the Time War/Gallifrey's destruction is inevitable and every time one version is averted another takes it place." I'm hoping this destruction is less total. More "Gallifrey is gone, but there are still Time Lords out there" and less "Last of Her Kind." Mostly because I'd quite like to see the Monk or Romana back. Thinking about it now, it also fits pretty well with the longstanding rules surrounding history and fixed points in time. Significant events can be repressed, delayed or altered on a minute level, but they always find ways to re-emerge. The (un)death of Amy Johnson being one of the more recent examples I can think of. The Doctor and Clara cheat fate and save her from dying on Earth, relying on the (very human) idea that because she's no longer a part of Earth's timeline she's safe. However, sadly she's still very much part of wider history as a whole and it won't give her up. The circumstances of her death are quite different, but the end result is the same. Time likes having its own way (and quite frequently does). Begs the question, though... What's supposed to come after Gallifrey?
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Post by Timelord007 on Jan 6, 2020 9:39:47 GMT
Loved it, intriguing story that delivered great dramatic moments, Sacha is fantastic as The Master there's a burning darkness & look of heartbreak within him which links to his discovery about Gallifrey & why he destroyed it & i for one am very excited to see were this goes.
Jodie was brilliant & her scenes with Sacha were great they paired these incarnations up well & created a new Doctor/Master dynamic.
Bit miffed Barton escaped but no doubt i expect he'll turn up again in the series finale as will i expect The Master.
The Timeless Child, who could it be? Is it linked to The Doctor leaving Gallifrey with Susan, is Susan the Timeless Child but doesn't know she is? Ohhhh there's plenty to debate here.
I'd love see The Doctor take Ryan, Yaz, Graham to Gallifrey & explore the ravaged wasteland looking for clues that be a great episode to deliver character drama & intrigue.
Overall a excellent 2 parter & a strong start to season 12.
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Jan 6, 2020 9:50:56 GMT
I can't help but wonder if we're heading towards a Mindwarp scenario for the finale, with The Master somehow messing with The Doctor's mind to 'save' her and bring her closer to him, with some VERY harsh truths being revealed to the Fam? I think we might get some Time War references. Maybe a formerly timelocked battlefield where War did some terrible things and the Fam has to face up to the things that the Doctor has already faced and grown from.
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Post by notawerewolf99 on Jan 6, 2020 9:57:19 GMT
So the whole thing with Gallifrey being destroyed twice in the EDAs and the Time War seems a lot less ridiculous now. It also accidentally matches quite well with my "the Time War/Gallifrey's destruction is inevitable and every time one version is averted another takes it place." I'm hoping this destruction is less total. More "Gallifrey is gone, but there are still Time Lords out there" and less "Last of Her Kind." Mostly because I'd quite like to see the Monk or Romana back. Thinking about it now, it also fits pretty well with the longstanding rules surrounding history and fixed points in time. Significant events can be repressed, delayed or altered on a minute level, but they always find ways to re-emerge. The (un)death of Amy Johnson being one of the more recent examples I can think of. The Doctor and Clara cheat fate and save her from dying on Earth, relying on the (very human) idea that because she's no longer a part of Earth's timeline she's safe. However, sadly she's still very much part of wider history as a whole and it won't give her up. The circumstances of her death are quite different, but the end result is the same. Time likes having its own way (and quite frequently does). Begs the question, though... What's supposed to come after Gallifrey? Something better, maybe? Given how radically Chibnall is redefining the show, it wouldn't surprise me.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2020 10:02:02 GMT
Thinking about it now, it also fits pretty well with the longstanding rules surrounding history and fixed points in time. Significant events can be repressed, delayed or altered on a minute level, but they always find ways to re-emerge. The (un)death of Amy Johnson being one of the more recent examples I can think of. The Doctor and Clara cheat fate and save her from dying on Earth, relying on the (very human) idea that because she's no longer a part of Earth's timeline she's safe. However, sadly she's still very much part of wider history as a whole and it won't give her up. The circumstances of her death are quite different, but the end result is the same. Time likes having its own way (and quite frequently does). Begs the question, though... What's supposed to come after Gallifrey? Something better, maybe? Given how radically Chibnall is redefining the show, it wouldn't surprise me. Nor me. I wonder... I wonder if we're on the road to a new Time Lord society founded by the renegades they originally exiled?
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Post by agentten on Jan 6, 2020 10:06:23 GMT
Another strong episode and I'm happy with where the season is sitting so far. The O Master is a major feather in the show's cap already. Dhawan imbues him with such an exciting unpredictability. It's a lot of fun to watch and old tricks, such as the shrink ray, have become frightening again. The strongest part of the episode, though, was Whittaker's performance in the coda. Her reactions manifested a lot of the undercurrent of the Doctor's complicated relationship with Gallifrey. I was not opposed to Moffat restoring Gallifrey, but I found the "last of the Time Lords" Doctor of the RTD era extremely interesting and have found that I prefer that take on the subject of where The Doctor comes from so I'm not opposed to a little revision. I understand why some see it as repetitive, though what keeps it interesting for me from a character perspective is The Master being the one to do it. The narrative questions that raises are really exciting to me.
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Post by notawerewolf99 on Jan 6, 2020 10:28:42 GMT
Something better, maybe? Given how radically Chibnall is redefining the show, it wouldn't surprise me. Nor me. I wonder... I wonder if we're on the road to a new Time Lord society founded by the renegades they originally exiled? I think it's time to push further then that and aim for the next fifty years. I'm thinking more along the lines of another race who take up the Time Lords mantle sans pomposity, with actual benevolent intent who are more in touch with the universe and do a better job of managing temporal affairs then the Time Lords. Does Doctor Who have to be about Time Lords?
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Post by aussiedoctorwhofan on Jan 6, 2020 11:49:24 GMT
When I heard the line about "77 years" from the Master and what he escaped from etc.. I immediately thought of "Big Finish boxset time exploring that part of his timeline"
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2020 11:53:49 GMT
4.60 million overnight viewers for this last night, for those who give a monkey's!
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Post by notawerewolf99 on Jan 6, 2020 11:59:06 GMT
When I heard the line about "77 years" from the Master and what he escaped from etc.. I immediately thought of "Big Finish boxset time exploring that part of his timeline" I don't know if we really need it. I imagine he didn't really do anything on a macro scale, lest he undo his timeline. At best, I imagine he posed as one of the Delgado Master's flunkies to get back to his roots in the course of a Third Doctor adventure and probably meanced Jo or The Brigader.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2020 12:41:59 GMT
So the whole thing with Gallifrey being destroyed twice in the EDAs and the Time War seems a lot less ridiculous now. It also accidentally matches quite well with my "the Time War/Gallifrey's destruction is inevitable and every time one version is averted another takes it place." I'm hoping this destruction is less total. More "Gallifrey is gone, but there are still Time Lords out there" and less "Last of Her Kind." Mostly because I'd quite like to see the Monk or Romana back. I very much doubt all the Time Lords are gone. How they react being forced to interact with the wider universe without their godly powers that hates and fears them and how it ties into the wider arc is going to be VERY interesting. Might we see a certain Meddling Monk in the near future?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2020 12:57:11 GMT
4.60 million overnight viewers for this last night, for those who give a monkey's! You and I were talking the other day about how people are using the massive S11 premiere numbers to beat S12 over the head a bit unfairly given that *everyone* wanted to see this controversial new Doctor, and implying maybe some are actively wanting the show to fail. To be fair I checked *the other place* for the ratings this afternoon and there's Tom Spilsbury, long term Doctor Who Magazine editor till 2 years ago and some who obviously wants the show to do wel, doing just that and calling the figures "slightly disappointing" for the first 2 eps given they're lower than any in S11 and January tends to be the highest rated month for shows overall. So if even he's online using phrases like that, maybe it isn't too surprising some fans panic a bit - especially the ones who still check under their bed for Grade and Powell. He gives no mention to +7s, or the fact that the shows who "beat" Who last night (like Dancing On Ice with Barrowman) won't when the catchup figures come in. If people see reasonably high profile folk in fandom like Tom saying they're disappointing ratings...I can see why now the worry does seem to catch on with fans.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2020 13:10:34 GMT
4.60 million overnight viewers for this last night, for those who give a monkey's! You and I were talking the other day about how people are using the massive S11 premiere numbers to beat S12 over the head a bit unfairly given that *everyone* wanted to see this controversial new Doctor, and implying maybe some are actively wanting the show to fail. To be fair I checked *the other place* for the ratings this afternoon and there's Tom Spilsbury, long term Doctor Who Magazine editor till 2 years ago and some who obviously wants the show to do wel, doing just that and calling the figures "slightly disappointing" for the first 2 eps given they're lower than any in S11 and January tends to be the highest rated month for shows overall. So if even he's online using phrases like that, maybe it isn't too surprising some fans panic a bit - especially the ones who still check under their bed for Grade and Powell. He gives no mention to +7s, or the fact that the shows who "beat" Who last night (like Dancing On Ice with Barrowman) won't when the catchup figures come in. If people see reasonably high profile folk in fandom like Tom saying they're disappointing ratings...I can see why now the worry does seem to catch on with fans. The 'problem' is, certainly regarding the overnights, this series seems to be continuing the gentley slide in viewers that afflicted Series 11. It would be nice to see the figures rise. Strange that last series's critical reception was decidedly mixed with higher ratings, and this year (well, so far), the opposite seems to be true.
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Jan 6, 2020 13:18:36 GMT
I honestly felt that for the most part the episode dropped the ball imo. Sure there were some good sequences and Sacha's Master was brilliant. A good mix of Delgado and Ainsley i thought.
Just wish we could have had more with Ada and Nona.
and I was actually really annoyed with the Destruction of Gallifrey. But after reading alot of the comments, i realised i could go back to an old story idea. But it felt like a retcon of a retcon and it didnt sit right.
also Gallifrey wasnt in a pocket dimension in Hell Bent. It was moved to near the End of Time (not the episode lol), so they could continue hiding
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2020 13:35:52 GMT
You and I were talking the other day about how people are using the massive S11 premiere numbers to beat S12 over the head a bit unfairly given that *everyone* wanted to see this controversial new Doctor, and implying maybe some are actively wanting the show to fail. To be fair I checked *the other place* for the ratings this afternoon and there's Tom Spilsbury, long term Doctor Who Magazine editor till 2 years ago and some who obviously wants the show to do wel, doing just that and calling the figures "slightly disappointing" for the first 2 eps given they're lower than any in S11 and January tends to be the highest rated month for shows overall. So if even he's online using phrases like that, maybe it isn't too surprising some fans panic a bit - especially the ones who still check under their bed for Grade and Powell. He gives no mention to +7s, or the fact that the shows who "beat" Who last night (like Dancing On Ice with Barrowman) won't when the catchup figures come in. If people see reasonably high profile folk in fandom like Tom saying they're disappointing ratings...I can see why now the worry does seem to catch on with fans. The 'problem' is, certainly regarding the overnights, this series seems to be continuing the gentley slide in viewers that afflicted Series 11. It would be nice to see the figures rise. Strange that last series's critical reception was decidedly mixed with higher ratings, and this year (well, so far), the opposite seems to be true. We were always going to see a more accurate picture now that the curious who only wanted to see the controversy have checked back out but even with ratings lower than S11, it seems certain enough we'll get them a good bit higher than S10...and that season still got the show a 2-season renewal. The Beeb seem happy with their Sunday block now.I think Nucleus said elsewhere, the worry isn't 5mill overnight ratings, its when those 5mill were including the catchup figures as it meant fans rather than say "I'll get it later" just didn't bother catching it at all. We've got another 8 eps to see if there is indeed a slide this year that's concerning, or if 6.5-7 is the general level Jodie's era will get outside of the aberration of the first year. If it's the latter there's nothing to worry about, if it's the former...it depends on the gradient of the slide I guess!
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Post by mark687 on Jan 6, 2020 13:42:53 GMT
You and I were talking the other day about how people are using the massive S11 premiere numbers to beat S12 over the head a bit unfairly given that *everyone* wanted to see this controversial new Doctor, and implying maybe some are actively wanting the show to fail. To be fair I checked *the other place* for the ratings this afternoon and there's Tom Spilsbury, long term Doctor Who Magazine editor till 2 years ago and some who obviously wants the show to do wel, doing just that and calling the figures "slightly disappointing" for the first 2 eps given they're lower than any in S11 and January tends to be the highest rated month for shows overall. So if even he's online using phrases like that, maybe it isn't too surprising some fans panic a bit - especially the ones who still check under their bed for Grade and Powell. He gives no mention to +7s, or the fact that the shows who "beat" Who last night (like Dancing On Ice with Barrowman) won't when the catchup figures come in. If people see reasonably high profile folk in fandom like Tom saying they're disappointing ratings...I can see why now the worry does seem to catch on with fans. The 'problem' is, certainly regarding the overnights, this series seems to be continuing the gentley slide in viewers that afflicted Series 11. It would be nice to see the figures rise. Strange that last series's critical reception was decidedly mixed with higher ratings, and this year (well, so far), the opposite seems to Tbe true. I'm really surprised that there's still not serious discussion for pulling "A Killing Eve Boxset" move yet cause everyone knows you'll never best "Celebrities do something different shows" or "slightly unPC Comedy" in a "live viewing" head to head. They should stick all series 12 on I-player in one go, then after a couple of months, then stick it on TV for late nights. Regards mark687
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2020 14:08:23 GMT
The 'problem' is, certainly regarding the overnights, this series seems to be continuing the gentley slide in viewers that afflicted Series 11. It would be nice to see the figures rise. Strange that last series's critical reception was decidedly mixed with higher ratings, and this year (well, so far), the opposite seems to Tbe true. I'm really surprised that there's still not serious discussion for pulling "A Killing Eve Boxset" move yet cause everyone knows you'll never best "Celebrities do something different shows" or "slightly unPC Comedy" in a "live viewing" head to head. They should stick all series 12 on I-player in one go, then after a couple of months, then stick it on TV for late nights. Regards mark687 I'd honestly hate that. I like having a week between eps to digest, enjoy and discuss it. Having it all drop at once would mean you would have to binge it as there's no way you could avoid spoilers in Who fandom online - #TheMaster was trending within 10 mins of Spyfall ep 1. I think they may have given more serious thought to things being shaken up if ratings didn't pick up after S10's ratings. About 3million people did the boxset of Killing Eve S2, with the broadcast numbers getting 3.5mill overnights so we're not talking radically different from Who numbers anyway. Bodyguard got the biggest drama overnights in a decade in 2018 (and that was the traditional death slot, the summer months) so there is still room for dramas that are event TV that do get bums on couches Day 1. While last weeks Gavin & Stacey got an INSANE 16 mill which shows there is indeed still room for big popular family shows to get the old school Fools And Horses numbers that were assumed to be things of the past in 2019/20. Just over a decade ago it was Who winning that Christmas slot with Voyage Of The Damned. It does feel like the Chibnall era is doing it's best to evoke that RTD one but we're nowhere near the ratings of peak Tennant. Whether that's just because he was just THAT popular, or that it's hard for a show that's been back since 2005 to really keep up momentum who knows? I didn't actually watch Gavin &Stacey's reunion, anyone know if it was any good? I liked it fine in the 2000s but I didn't realise it was quite so beloved.
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Jan 6, 2020 14:58:50 GMT
Random Theory. What if The Master is The Hybrid lol. Since he conquered Gallifrey and Stood in its Ruins
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