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Post by sherlock on Jan 6, 2020 15:03:02 GMT
Random Theory. What if The Master is The Hybrid lol. Since he conquered Gallifrey and Stood in its Ruins Given all the things he’s used over the years to prolong his life (Trakenite body, Tzun nano-bots, Deathworm Morphant and a variety of human hosts) he probably could meet the absurdly loose criteria of a hybrid that Series 9 claimed...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2020 16:15:24 GMT
Random Theory. What if The Master is The Hybrid lol. Since he conquered Gallifrey and Stood in its Ruins Please can we just forget that Hybrid stuff ever happened.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Jan 6, 2020 16:33:01 GMT
The 'problem' is, certainly regarding the overnights, this series seems to be continuing the gentley slide in viewers that afflicted Series 11. It would be nice to see the figures rise. Strange that last series's critical reception was decidedly mixed with higher ratings, and this year (well, so far), the opposite seems to be true. We were always going to see a more accurate picture now that the curious who only wanted to see the controversy have checked back out but even with ratings lower than S11, it seems certain enough we'll get them a good bit higher than S10...and that season still got the show a 2-season renewal. The Beeb seem happy with their Sunday block now.I think Nucleus said elsewhere, the worry isn't 5mill overnight ratings, its when those 5mill were including the catchup figures as it meant fans rather than say "I'll get it later" just didn't bother catching it at all. We've got another 8 eps to see if there is indeed a slide this year that's concerning, or if 6.5-7 is the general level Jodie's era will get outside of the aberration of the first year. If it's the latter there's nothing to worry about, if it's the former...it depends on the gradient of the slide I guess! So I'll do my own thoughts on Spyfall in a mo, but figured I'd drop in here. By and large, I won't talk ratings much this year - S13 is coming, no matter what and as davy's pointed out, I've discussed what the main concerns are. After 28 days, we'll be more than fine - both Spyfalls should clear 7 fine, if we go by last year's trends of 1.5-2+m, plus .9 to .6 is easily the smallest drop we've had for an opener in some time, and hopefully that tightness carries over. Orphan 55 will likely be like It Takes You Away - a story that's hard to market and will see weaker figures for it, even with the good word-of-mouth for Spyfall, and will have to do most of its business post-broadcast. The Tesla episode may turn that around and plug the flow, being an easier sell with a historical figure the internet drools over as a bonus, but we'll just have to see.
Really, I'm less worried for S12 and more beyond that - NuWho's run for nearly 20 years now and so much of the media landscape has changed that it does leave wondering about the show's place in it all, regardless of Chibb's writing quality. Couple with that with the Beeb's oft-discussed poor handling of youth-geared scripted content, and the last spate of genre stuff that the Beeb's done like WarWorlds and HDM all suffering consistent declines, and I do wonder a little.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2020 16:41:35 GMT
Random Theory. What if The Master is The Hybrid lol. Since he conquered Gallifrey and Stood in its Ruins Interesting idea, but on the other hand there is nothing to say that the legend of the Hybrid was referring to just one incarnation of a Timelord or that events happened all at once. Technically the Twelfth did conquer Gallifrey when he defeated Rassilon and the High Council and the Thirteenth has just stood in it's ruins..
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Jan 6, 2020 16:52:52 GMT
I think Part 2 does step it up a few gears and find its feet much quicker than last time. Haven Jones 'gets' the material better as director than Stone, I think, and finds the right kind of 'fast pace' for it. This is definitely more 'Dinosaurs on A Spaceship'-unabashed fanboy Chibbs on display and, like that story, it does add a certain charm to it all. You get the sense he just sat down at the keyboard and said, 'It's Doctor Who - why not do a time-travelling spy thriller where Ada Lovelace and Noor Khan tag along, and the Doctor and the Master show down on the Eifel Tower, and then the fam go all The Fugitive and have to outrun Orwellian-Mark Zuckerberg?'
Granted, it does also come with some of those weakness - the resolution is definitely wonky, the companions B-Plot doesn't amount to much and Ada and Khan, while cool, don't contribute as much as they could've. With so many moving parts (anyone who felt Chibbs was too lean last year can't complain about this aspect now), something was going to get lost in the shuffle. Style and enthusiasm are very much meant to compensate for narrative shortcomings, though I think Spyfall gets away with it because of how earnestly gleeful it is.
But, conversely, Dhawan gets a lot more meat here (in fact, I'd argue he settles much sooner into the role than Gomez did in Death in Heaven) and makes a great impression as the Master - he's trying to hold it together much more than his two prior/future selves, and he has more of the Delgado/Beevers cold calculation to him that makes him much scarier. This is a guy who not only wants to control, but wants very much to believe he is IN control. Indeed, there are several instances where he doesn't talk or even monologue - it's carried just with Dhawan's face and eyes. It's very effective, as are his scenes with Jodie - you can just feel the strange love-hate between them, and Jodie relishes it as much as he does. Also, surprised no one's really discussed it much - Graham's really funny here. He's like a big kid with the laser shoes and Bradley hits the right note to sell it, as he does with calling Ryan and Yaz 'donuts' while on the run.
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Post by nottenst on Jan 6, 2020 16:55:02 GMT
A question about the Timeless Child scenes. I recognized one of the scenes as from The Ghost Monument last season, but I didn't recognize the second scene. Did anyone recognize it from another episode?
Regarding The Master passing time in the 20th century until now relatively quietly - he didn't want to attract The Doctor's attention while waiting to get back to his "current" plans. During the time when his earlier self was with MI6, he didn't want two Os to complicate matters as well. That could have jeopardized what he was doing with MI6.
One question about the plane - wouldn't it have just been easier for The Doctor to just appear in the TARDIS to rescue them instead of being involved in the building of the plane? Or was there some complication preventing that? I guess that might have been a first attempt that occurred off-screen. Of course, their reminding her to go back and be involved in the building of the plane is a bit timey wimey. [Or did I misunderstand that scene?]
Also, where did The Doctor leave The Master's TARDIS after doing all her travels in it?
Regarding the destruction of Gallifrey - did anyone escape? There is a whole bunch of stuff underground. Was that affected? Just "when" did The Doctor arrive at Gallifrey? Isn't it a bit ambiguous? It seems a bit beyond The Master's capabilities to do so much. And did they try to contact The Doctor for help? Lots of questions about what happened. I hope we find out more before the end of the season.
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Post by randomcomments on Jan 6, 2020 18:04:39 GMT
A question about the Timeless Child scenes. I recognized one of the scenes as from The Ghost Monument last season, but I didn't recognize the second scene. Did anyone recognize it from another episode? Regarding The Master passing time in the 20th century until now relatively quietly - he didn't want to attract The Doctor's attention while waiting to get back to his "current" plans. During the time when his earlier self was with MI6, he didn't want two Os to complicate matters as well. That could have jeopardized what he was doing with MI6. One question about the plane - wouldn't it have just been easier for The Doctor to just appear in the TARDIS to rescue them instead of being involved in the building of the plane? Or was there some complication preventing that? I guess that might have been a first attempt that occurred off-screen. Of course, their reminding her to go back and be involved in the building of the plane is a bit timey wimey. [Or did I misunderstand that scene?] Also, where did The Doctor leave The Master's TARDIS after doing all her travels in it? Regarding the destruction of Gallifrey - did anyone escape? There is a whole bunch of stuff underground. Was that affected? Just "when" did The Doctor arrive at Gallifrey? Isn't it a bit ambiguous? It seems a bit beyond The Master's capabilities to do so much. And did they try to contact The Doctor for help? Lots of questions about what happened. I hope we find out more before the end of the season. That second shot is new.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Jan 6, 2020 18:17:43 GMT
Watching the two-parter together, if this Master is a post-Missy regeneration, I don't think his madness/evil ways in any way undermines Missy's redemption arc. Much like the War Doctor was an anomaly in the Doctor's timeline, there is no reason to look at Missy learning how to be good any differently to the Master's respective timeline. If anything, to me at least, it makes Missy's attempts at being better even more tragic.
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Post by timegirl on Jan 6, 2020 18:50:07 GMT
Hi watched Spyfall Part 2, I am very curious where we are going with the Timeless Child story arch😃🤔I think there is definitely more to this new incarnation of the Master than we think 🤔 Also 13 is feeling more and more like a modern era 7, think about it both are seemingly short silly, jokey and cheerful Doctors, that are masking dark, mysterious and manipulative tendencies. 13 hiding her past from her companions, the chess master like moves with the instructions for her companions on the plane, tricking the Master on the Eiffel Tower and the way she mind wiped Noor and Ada without a second thought!
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Post by constonks on Jan 6, 2020 18:59:13 GMT
Watching the two-parter together, if this Master is a post-Missy regeneration, I don't think his madness/evil ways in any way undermines Missy's redemption arc. Much like the War Doctor was an anomaly in the Doctor's timeline, there is no reason to look at Missy learning how to be good any differently to the Master's respective timeline. If anything, to me at least, it makes Missy's attempts at being better even more tragic. Look at the Eleven - his eighth incarnation recognized the error of his ways and his ninth incarnation reveled in it.
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Post by Tim Bradley on Jan 6, 2020 19:23:31 GMT
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Post by tuigirl on Jan 6, 2020 21:20:59 GMT
Just finished watching it. In my opinion, this second part was not as good as part 1. But after that build-up- what could have really done it justice?
However, the new Master is fantastic. For me, he is easily the best thing in this episode. He is utterly ruthless and dangerous and quite dark, not the Simm like caricature that I feared. I still think that this Master is pre-Missy.
As for the alien threat- the word "conversion" was just used a bit too often for me- it could still be the Cybermen (albeit from a different dimension), maybe it ties in with the on-going arc?
Gallifrey destroyed. For real this time? I still have a slightly nagging suspicion that from the second half of the first episode on, all the plot is playing out inside the Master's TARDIS and he is just messing with the Doctor's mind.
On the other hand- maybe it is a good idea to have Gallifrey wiped out. I never liked the stories set on Gallifrey (well, apart from the War Games) and if this new retcon somehow makes the plot of Hell Bent go away, yes please. The Time Lords and their home world should remain mysterious and degrading them to caricatures did not sit well with me. Showing Gallifrey somehow has never done justice to what I had imagined, it is destined to fall short. I am with RTD on this.
So on the plus side- we get a great basis for some shock and character development for the Doctor and this might allow for her to go into a darker direction. We also seem to get a deep and ancient mystery plot, and I have always loved those.
On the meh side- the destruction of Gallifrey does feel a bit... copy/ paste.
Now for what I did not like about the episode. The companions. Or better, their half of the story.
Especially all that comic relief with the spy toys. Seriously? I actually liked all that plot with the Master, the historical figures, the travel through the past much, MUCH better. Every time we switched back to the present day and the "fam", I was like "meh". I actually willed these bits to go away faster so I could go back to the real dark meat of the story.
The Doctor's part of the story was just sooo much more interesting and I would not have minded it it had been expanded and we had lost at least the "laser shoes".
So what do I hope for the rest of the series? Some more deeper exploration of the Doctor's character, the revealing of dark secrets, the Master as the overall villain for the whole arc. I like the direction this is taking- into darkness!- but I just hope we get a bit less of the "laser shoes" and a bit more of the hiding under floor boards and playing with the TCE.
Edit- and I really wonder if "This is all a lie" just means all this is playing out inside the Master's TARDIS?
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Post by mark687 on Jan 6, 2020 22:50:10 GMT
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Post by chopper on Jan 7, 2020 0:26:51 GMT
Just finished watching it. In my opinion, this second part was not as good as part 1. But after that build-up- what could have really done it justice?
However, the new Master is fantastic. For me, he is easily the best thing in this episode. He is utterly ruthless and dangerous and quite dark, not the Simm like caricature that I feared. I still think that this Master is pre-Missy.
Gallifrey destroyed. For real this time? I still have a slightly nagging suspicion that from the second half of the first episode on, all the plot is playing out inside the Master's TARDIS and he is just messing with the Doctor's mind.
On the other hand- maybe it is a good idea to have Gallifrey wiped out. I never liked the stories set on Gallifrey (well, apart from the War Games) and if this new retcon somehow makes the plot of Hell Bent go away, yes please. The Time Lords and their home world should remain mysterious and degrading them to caricatures did not sit well with me. Showing Gallifrey somehow has never done justice to what I had imagined, it is destined to fall short. I am with RTD on this.
So on the plus side- we get a great basis for some shock and character development for the Doctor and this might allow for her to go into a darker direction. We also seem to get a deep and ancient mystery plot, and I have always loved those.
On the meh side- the destruction of Gallifrey does feel a bit... copy/ paste.
Now for what I did not like about the episode. The companions. Or better, their half of the story.
Especially all that comic relief with the spy toys. Seriously? I actually liked all that plot with the Master, the historical figures, the travel through the past much, MUCH better. Every time we switched back to the present day and the "fam", I was like "meh". I actually willed these bits to go away faster so I could go back to the real dark meat of the story.
The Doctor's part of the story was just sooo much more interesting and I would not have minded it it had been expanded and we had lost at least the "laser shoes".
So what do I hope for the rest of the series? Some more deeper exploration of the Doctor's character, the revealing of dark secrets, the Master as the overall villain for the whole arc. I like the direction this is taking- into darkness!- but I just hope we get a bit less of the "laser shoes" and a bit more of the hiding under floor boards and playing with the TCE.
Edit- and I really wonder if "This is all a lie" just means all this is playing out inside the Master's TARDIS?
I agree with most of this. I wonder if the Doc is as opposed to laser shoes as she is with guns. I didnt much like ep 1 but ep 2 was much more interesting. So Lenny Henry turned his mum into a hard drive? So the body remains the same, even though the DNA is being rewritten? Or have i missed something as usual. With regards the 'how did the master escape Missy's unregenerationable death?' Well i suppose that Simm then regenerated into Missy and then Missy sees her body lying there and thinks 'not on your nelly' and shoves it in a zero chamber. Or something.
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Post by tuigirl on Jan 7, 2020 7:13:44 GMT
I agree with most of this. I wonder if the Doc is as opposed to laser shoes as she is with guns. I didnt much like ep 1 but ep 2 was much more interesting. So Lenny Henry turned his mum into a hard drive? So the body remains the same, even though the DNA is being rewritten? Or have i missed something as usual. With regards the 'how did the master escape Missy's unregenerationable death?' Well i suppose that Simm then regenerated into Missy and then Missy sees her body lying there and thinks 'not on your nelly' and shoves it in a zero chamber. Or something. Interesting question. In my book, laser shoes should count as "guns".
Well, this might be a simple case of "This is NOT how DNA works", Who has never been particularly close to any of the science it portrays. Do not start thinking about it, otherwise you will be scratching your head non-stop. Wonder who does the scientific adviser for the show at the moment or if they have abandoned the idea?
As regards to the Master and Missy... anything is possible. As I said, I still suspect that this new Master is before Missy... and that the experiences he gets now helps with Missy's change in character.
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Post by barnabaslives on Jan 7, 2020 9:12:51 GMT
I totally enjoyed that, it seemed exceptionally well-balanced even for how much was going on. I'm liking the companion scenes this season like never before, not sure what happened but things seem more balanced there, too - I'm not feeling like Yaz is being overlooked this time around - and looking back they've been well developed enough as group that some the light-hearted stuff can center around them without making them feel like mere comic relief.
I think Satcha makes a fantastic Master, individual but very much The Master and I'm quite impressed with how fast I've totally bought into it.
Poor Gallifrey - but it was nice for the story to go there, it's always nice to see The Doctor get a homecoming, and interesting to where Chibnall might go with it. Somewhere vaguely upbeat might be nice I think, Gallifrey looks like it could use some good news. :-)
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Post by project37 on Jan 7, 2020 11:45:10 GMT
When I heard the line about "77 years" from the Master and what he escaped from etc.. I immediately thought of "Big Finish boxset time exploring that part of his timeline" I don't know if we really need it. That made me smile. This is the company that put out boxsets about Winston Churchill and Lady Christina.
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Post by project37 on Jan 7, 2020 11:51:07 GMT
A question about the Timeless Child scenes. I recognized one of the scenes as from The Ghost Monument last season, but I didn't recognize the second scene. Did anyone recognize it from another episode? It seems to be new, and... {Spoiler} ...it seems to be a little girl. Is she on Gallifrey? Wherever she is, something major is happening right above her!
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Jan 7, 2020 12:30:39 GMT
Has anyone noticed the minor controversies brewing on social media about the Doctor handing the Master over to the Nazis? It is baffling to me: I mean, I can see the point, vaguely, of a POC being handed over to the Nazis... but... but... it’s The Master. I’m all for proper representation and being responsible and all that in your storytelling... but IT’S THE MASTER! He’s just killed three people with the tissue compression eliminator in 1834, killed the real O for his job, tried to kill the Doctor and her companions with a plane, ordered some Nazis to riddle the floor of a flat with bullets to try and kill the Doctor and Ada (btw, how is Noor going to explain that to her landlord?) and is colluding with an alien race to take over the world and turn us all into USBs. How is him being turned over to the Nazis a bad thing?
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Post by mark687 on Jan 7, 2020 12:47:13 GMT
Has anyone noticed the minor controversies brewing on social media about the Doctor handing the Master over to the Nazis? It is baffling to me: I mean, I can see the point, vaguely, of a POC being handed over to the Nazis... but... but... it’s The Master. I’m all for proper representation and being responsible and all that in your storytelling... but IT’S THE MASTER! He’s just killed three people with the tissue compression eliminator in 1834, killed the real O for his job, tried to kill the Doctor and her companions with a plane, ordered some Nazis to riddle the floor of a flat with bullets to try and kill the Doctor and Ada (btw, how is Noor going to explain that to her landlord?) and is colluding with an alien race to take over the world and turn us all into USBs. How is him being turned over to the Nazis a bad thing? Yes its trying its trying to make both points equally valid "The Master's Evil but stranded without Perception Filter looking as he does now, he'll be the target of the worst of Human Society is that right?", and because of those earlier scenes it doesn't land right. Regards mark687
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