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Post by whiskeybrewer on Jan 7, 2020 13:09:53 GMT
A question about the Timeless Child scenes. I recognized one of the scenes as from The Ghost Monument last season, but I didn't recognize the second scene. Did anyone recognize it from another episode? Regarding The Master passing time in the 20th century until now relatively quietly - he didn't want to attract The Doctor's attention while waiting to get back to his "current" plans. During the time when his earlier self was with MI6, he didn't want two Os to complicate matters as well. That could have jeopardized what he was doing with MI6. One question about the plane - wouldn't it have just been easier for The Doctor to just appear in the TARDIS to rescue them instead of being involved in the building of the plane? Or was there some complication preventing that? I guess that might have been a first attempt that occurred off-screen. Of course, their reminding her to go back and be involved in the building of the plane is a bit timey wimey. [Or did I misunderstand that scene?] Also, where did The Doctor leave The Master's TARDIS after doing all her travels in it? Regarding the destruction of Gallifrey - did anyone escape? There is a whole bunch of stuff underground. Was that affected? Just "when" did The Doctor arrive at Gallifrey? Isn't it a bit ambiguous? It seems a bit beyond The Master's capabilities to do so much. And did they try to contact The Doctor for help? Lots of questions about what happened. I hope we find out more before the end of the season. That second shot is new. I wondered if it was the Building from the Next Time bit
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Post by tuigirl on Jan 7, 2020 17:49:46 GMT
Has anyone noticed the minor controversies brewing on social media about the Doctor handing the Master over to the Nazis? It is baffling to me: I mean, I can see the point, vaguely, of a POC being handed over to the Nazis... but... but... it’s The Master. I’m all for proper representation and being responsible and all that in your storytelling... but IT’S THE MASTER! He’s just killed three people with the tissue compression eliminator in 1834, killed the real O for his job, tried to kill the Doctor and her companions with a plane, ordered some Nazis to riddle the floor of a flat with bullets to try and kill the Doctor and Ada (btw, how is Noor going to explain that to her landlord?) and is colluding with an alien race to take over the world and turn us all into USBs. How is him being turned over to the Nazis a bad thing? Yeah, I agree with you there.
I think we already had a similar debate about Liv playing with that gun towards both the Eleven and the Master in Ravenous 4. And honestly, (Ravenous 4 minor spoiler)
{Spoiler} she using the gun and shooting the Master (NOT to kill, mind you!) felt soooo satisfying.
The Master had it coming, it is totally justified, and even without his perception filter, he is still THE MASTER. He can be marooned on Skaro (well, Missy at least) and still get out, and honestly, I think Nazis are amateurs compared to the Daleks.
The Doctor knows that abandoning the Master with the Nazis, even if they throw him into a concentration camp, it will only be a minor inconvenience.
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Post by mrperson on Jan 7, 2020 19:07:48 GMT
- I'd prefer new showrunners to stop overriding the point of what previous showrunners did. Consider the absurdity: Gallifrey destroyed in the Time War, Gallifrey saved by 11 but frozen, Gallifrey magically back, Gallifrey still standing when 12 visits Me in the farthest-flung future, Gallifrey destroyed all over again (presumably earlier in its timeline than when 12 stood in intact-but-dead Gallifrey with Me. More on that problem to follow).
- Relatedly, is there not now a rather large temporal problem (if the show follows its own general rules)? Everything about the above could be explained away within-universe. But now the Doctor has stood in a wrecked Gallifrey's ruins, which have got to be earlier in Gallifrey's timeline than when 12 stood with Me in an unwrecked Gallifrey. So if the Doctor does nothing, she's effectively interfered in her own timeline - she can't have stood with Me in later-Gallifrey if earlier-Gallifrey was wrecked. And if the Doctor does something, she again interferes with her own timeline because if Gallifrey wasn't wrecked she couldn't have stood there looking at it burn. (I suppose the one out is to find a way to remove the Timelords before it is wrecked (running the risk changing the Master's timeline a bit, creating a danger of changing the events of the episode we just watched, seeing as those events followed the Master's off-screen 'destruction' of Gallifrey - this would again be an effective interference in her own timeline. Actually, EDIT: no, removing the timelords wouldn't get away around the problem: the Doctor first stood in unwrecked end-of-time Gallifrey with Me, and has now stood in earlier-Gallifrey wrecked. I suppose the full way around would be removing Timelords before it is wrecked, and then they go back to rebuild it after Doctor stands in wrecked version).
- The other plot arc. "Timeless child" reminds me of "Hybrid". I do hope Chibnall handles arcs a lot better than Moffat if we are to have arcs. I generally don't want, like, or need them. S11 gave me hope we were done with that business for a while. I guess they're back. So I have to hope Chibnall can stick a landing where Moffat regularly failed. I'll be quite let down if they just sort of forget about the "timeless child" business and in two seasons, look Gallifrey's back but don't ask how.
- Thus far, I'm not a fan of this master. Too close to Simm. And for me, underlying 'darkness' does not make up for the surface behavior. I want to see 'bad man laughing at believed success' go away entirely. I never want to hear from it again. It is stupid. Real bad people do not behave that way. I know it's a trope but the show can change, right?
I don't want to sound too negative because I really did enjoy the episodes overall. I suppose that apart from my reaction to the new Master, this is more about worries that elements I didn't like before and that I thought were gone now appear to have returned.
Oh right: PLEASE can we get rid of the trope that "dimension" means "an entire separate reality." A dimension is a direction in which existence can happen. Height is a direction, not a place. Length is a direction, not a place. Width is a direction, not a place. Time is a direction (albeit of a different variety, it would appear), not a place.
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Post by pazzer on Jan 7, 2020 19:44:23 GMT
Enjoyed it more than last weeks episode and it looked and felt epic. But the plot just didn't click for me. Everything with Barton and the aliens didn't amount to anything and was waved away in last 5 minutes. Loved the scenes with the Master and the Doctor and hoping he pops up again this season.
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Post by number13 on Jan 8, 2020 13:00:07 GMT
Has anyone noticed the minor controversies brewing on social media about the Doctor handing the Master over to the Nazis? The Master had it coming, it is totally justified, and even without his perception filter, he is still THE MASTER. Agree, handing the Master over was just one more move in their endless game. The Doctor can get out of anywhere, anytime and she knows that whatever she can do, the Master can do. But with evil intent.
I thought leaving him in Paris 1943 with only human opponents was very dangerous, given the one 'Master' thing he didn't do in this story. Wasn't the Doctor running the risk of him deciding 'well, if I'm stuck here on Earth I'll just take my rightful place in this society' and manoeuvering his way up to the dark heart of Berlin? If he'd wanted to bother, one day he might have stood in the Bunker, whispering ' I am the Master and you will obey me. ' ? And then what?
Fortunately he was so obsessed with his original plan and being revenged on the Doctor, again, that gaining such minor power (by his standards) must have been a distraction he chose to ignore.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2020 13:02:45 GMT
Seen it at last!
If I have any problem with Spyfall Part Two, it is that there were too many ideas in it, and some of them weren't given enough screen time. The Doctor's two iconic historical helpers Ada Lovelace and Noor Inayat Khan really deserved more. Interesting characters, played by two terrific actresses, and I'd love to have seen more from them.
Secondly, and I realise this is probably a personal bugbear of mine, but Yaz's conversation with her family. "Where are you, idiot?" and "Shut up," - these are two lines the like of which I would like to have seen the back of with the departure of Pond and to a certain extent Clara. The Doctor's current 'fam' are far more likeable than those kind of glib put-downs.
Alright, with that out of the way - this was great, great fun, and built very well on the pace and scale of the preceding episode. I loved the aliens - still not convinced they're not Voord (joking - possibly), and I'm sure we'll see more of Lenny Henry's character. He can't just be allowed to walk away. The fact that he killed his own mother makes him ripe for a comeback, I'd say, just so he can get his comeuppance.
The Doctor is so good here, having been faced at last with a real and ongoing dilemma. Jodie rises to this, delivering some great moments of tension, and that the 'fam' (still not taken with that term, but whatever) are beginning to ask questions of her is a good development - for The Doctor and for them.
Sacha Dhawan is just brilliant as The Master. I don't think I've ever been so completely sold on an interpretation of the character, and I am still a huge fan of Missy. But Sacha's is a truly nasty, unstable, power-mad incarnation and he plays it perfectly. I've read a few reviews, mainly positive, I'm pleased to say - and not one of them does anything other than praise him. Quite right too. Can't wait to see what else this new version gets up to.
I succumbed to a spoiler before seeing this. When I read Gallifrey was about to pop off again, I really did feel this was a case of needless repetition, especially as it concerned an element of the show that I've never been a fan of. The Doctor left Gallifrey because he was bored and frustrated with the place. Having seen various stories set on that planet, I can only sympathise. The only relevance it has, in my view, is that it is The Doctor's home. Other than that, it should have stayed dead when RTD apparently killed it off. But that way this new demise has been handled is wonderful, I think, and The Master's ominous words about 'lies' actually generates interest in the concept again. To destroy the place is one thing, but when it is clearly part of an ongoing situation, or arc - and especially when it is one as good as this - then I'm convinced Chris Chibnall has something very interesting up his sleeve again. So far, he's got rid of Torchwood, UNIT and now Gallifrey. I just home he doesn't take a dislike to the TARDIS, because I love that old crate!
Wonderful stuff. This series is so much more vital and immediate than what we had last year (which I also enjoyed).
Oh - and she loves a laminater!
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Post by tuigirl on Jan 8, 2020 19:11:09 GMT
I succumbed to a spoiler before seeing this. When I read Gallifrey was about to pop off again, I really did feel this was a case of needless repetition, especially as it concerned an element of the show that I've never been a fan of. The Doctor left Gallifrey because he was bored and frustrated with the place. Having seen various stories set on that planet, I can only sympathise. The only relevance it has, in my view, is that it is The Doctor's home. Other than that, it should have stayed dead when RTD apparently killed it off. But that way this new demise has been handled is wonderful, I think, and The Master's ominous words about 'lies' actually generates interest in the concept again. To destroy the place is one thing, but when it is clearly part of an ongoing situation, or arc - and especially when it is one as good as this - then I'm convinced Chris Chibnall has something very interesting up his sleeve again. So far, he's got rid of Torchwood, UNIT and now Gallifrey. I just home he doesn't take a dislike to the TARDIS, because I love that old crate!
Wonderful stuff. This series is so much more vital and immediate than what we had last year (which I also enjoyed).
Oh - and she loves a laminater!
Totally agree with you on the TV version of Gallifrey. Only good representation we got was in the War Games.
As for getting rid of the TARDIS- even for a few episodes, it would really change the pace and shake things up a bit. But please, this time make it the future? Not like present day in Stranded (although, I think if the BBC approved Stranded, they won't have the same thing planned for the TV series). I would really like to see the Doctor and the gang doing some cosmic hitchhiking.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2020 19:48:22 GMT
I succumbed to a spoiler before seeing this. When I read Gallifrey was about to pop off again, I really did feel this was a case of needless repetition, especially as it concerned an element of the show that I've never been a fan of. The Doctor left Gallifrey because he was bored and frustrated with the place. Having seen various stories set on that planet, I can only sympathise. The only relevance it has, in my view, is that it is The Doctor's home. Other than that, it should have stayed dead when RTD apparently killed it off. But that way this new demise has been handled is wonderful, I think, and The Master's ominous words about 'lies' actually generates interest in the concept again. To destroy the place is one thing, but when it is clearly part of an ongoing situation, or arc - and especially when it is one as good as this - then I'm convinced Chris Chibnall has something very interesting up his sleeve again. So far, he's got rid of Torchwood, UNIT and now Gallifrey. I just home he doesn't take a dislike to the TARDIS, because I love that old crate!
Wonderful stuff. This series is so much more vital and immediate than what we had last year (which I also enjoyed).
Oh - and she loves a laminater!
Totally agree with you on the TV version of Gallifrey. Only good representation we got was in the War Games.
As for getting rid of the TARDIS- even for a few episodes, it would really change the pace and shake things up a bit. But please, this time make it the future? Not like present day in Stranded (although, I think if the BBC approved Stranded, they won't have the same thing planned for the TV series). I would really like to see the Doctor and the gang doing some cosmic hitchhiking.
It's always good to speculate. One of the many things I loved about Spyfall is the breadth of locations, and how great they all looked. If the Doctor didn't have her TARDIS, we wouldn't have so much of opportunity for episodes on this scale (although, ironically, the Doctor was without the TARDIS for a fair portion of Spyfall). I'm a big fan of the kind of intimate adventures we'd get if the 'fam' were stranded (Midnight remains a favourite) in one place, but I wouldn't like it to last more than a trilogy, perhaps (a few episodes, as you suggest).
I'm getting the impression Chris Chibnall is far more open to shaking things up now, than Series 11 would suggest (perhaps he felt the first female Doctor was enough to be going on with) and its great not knowing what's going to happen (having said that, from what I've seen of Orphan 55, it looks to be an absolutely smasher).
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2020 23:30:35 GMT
Using a football analogy (just to be different), I thought Spyfall was a game of two halves. For me 'Part One' was like our home team leading 3-0 at half time with a brilliant performance, so a very enjoyable half to watch. Whereas 'Part Two' had the away team coming back, scoring twice, and our home team held on to scrape a 3-2 victory. So a bit of an iffy second half and a bit muddled in places, but we went home happy with the win so it all turned out okay.
I liked the new Master. BIG TIME! I'm not too bothered if he's pre or post Missy as redemption is overrated. I just want the Master to be cunning and evil, it's why the character exists.
The James Bond stuff was good, more so in part one ... but laser shoes are cool.
Lenny Henry was wasted in part two, but Barton provided a good social comment on the world we live in.
The aliens (Kasaavin) were a bit lame, once again.
Gallifrey destroyed. [Sigh]
It's hard to comment too much as we don't know where all the threads are going to lead, but overall Spyfall was an enjoyable start to the new season. I thought the second episode was a bit of a let down following the excellent first episode but it was a great surprise to have The Master back so I can overlook the mediocre bits of the second part.
I do think S12 is going to be a fun ride though!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2020 4:28:41 GMT
Thought I'd share these lovely faux Target covers from Andrew-Mark Thompson: Random thought: We've had a Gallifrey in devastation before... Have we ever had a circumstance where Gallifrey itself is intact, but the Time Lords are gone? I think that could make for a pretty strong arc. All their technology, all the wisdom in their libraries and archives is intact. The planet is as it ever was, but the people themselves have vanished.
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Post by number13 on Jan 9, 2020 10:14:08 GMT
Thought I'd share these lovely faux Target covers from Andrew-Mark Thompson: Random thought: We've had a Gallifrey in devastation before... Have we ever had a circumstance where Gallifrey itself is intact, but the Time Lords are gone? I think that could make for a pretty strong arc. All their technology, all the wisdom in their libraries and archives is intact. The planet is as it ever was, but the people themselves have vanished. Those are great covers!
An empty Gallifrey? Just imagine... one of the Doctor's tirades about Time Lord society finally convinces the Time Lords that they really are boring, stuffy, remote and out-of-touch. The idea spreads like lightning through the Capitol (all those connectable minds and the Matrix) and en masse, they take to their TARDISes and go off to see the Universe, to get involved, to change things just like the Doctor has always told them... What could possibly go wrong?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2020 11:56:15 GMT
Thought I'd share these lovely faux Target covers from Andrew-Mark Thompson: Random thought: We've had a Gallifrey in devastation before... Have we ever had a circumstance where Gallifrey itself is intact, but the Time Lords are gone? I think that could make for a pretty strong arc. All their technology, all the wisdom in their libraries and archives is intact. The planet is as it ever was, but the people themselves have vanished. Those are great covers!
An empty Gallifrey? Just imagine... one of the Doctor's tirades about Time Lord society finally convinces the Time Lords that they really are boring, stuffy, remote and out-of-touch. The idea spreads like lightning through the Capitol (all those connectable minds and the Matrix) and en masse, they take to their TARDISes and go off to see the Universe, to get involved, to change things just like the Doctor has always told them... What could possibly go wrong? Oh, god, could you imagine the bickering that would go on? Multiple TARDISes with differing Time Lords, all doing what they consider to be good and right for whatever time-and-space they ended up in? All treading on each other's toes wherever they arrived simultaneously. A tug-of-war over the historical landscape.
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Post by number13 on Jan 9, 2020 12:21:31 GMT
Those are great covers!
An empty Gallifrey? Just imagine... one of the Doctor's tirades about Time Lord society finally convinces the Time Lords that they really are boring, stuffy, remote and out-of-touch. The idea spreads like lightning through the Capitol (all those connectable minds and the Matrix) and en masse, they take to their TARDISes and go off to see the Universe, to get involved, to change things just like the Doctor has always told them... What could possibly go wrong? Oh, god, could you imagine the bickering that would go on? Multiple TARDISes with differing Time Lords, all doing what they consider to be good and right for whatever time-and-space they ended up in? All treading on each other's toes wherever they arrived simultaneously. A tug-of-war over the historical landscape. lol! That's more or less how I imagine 'The Three Monks' (if they could find someone to do justice to the wonderful Peter Butterworth original - maybe Jon Culshaw?)
The Doctors can co-operate, even the Masters can when it's important enough. But the Monks meddle by instinct and habit (EDIT yes of course that's a pun - even if I didn't intend it as one! ) and I think each one would try to overturn each of the others' 'fix' to any timeline, sure that his was best. Three episodes of increasing chaos and a finale with all three Monks at loggerheads and one of the Doctors (Eight probably) stepping in just in time to stop everything, Monks included, vanishing into a swirl of paradox. Lots of fun and lots of mind-spinning timey-wimeyness.
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Post by doctorkernow on Jan 9, 2020 16:04:27 GMT
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Post by mark687 on Jan 9, 2020 16:17:57 GMT
Again (seemingly by choice) DW becomes the lightening rod programme for the debate plus its getting attacked from both sides. Regards mark687
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2020 17:15:39 GMT
I think The Guardian article is full of incredibly skewed ways of looking at events. Saying "but they're killing more black characters so it's not representative" - citing Grace and Lenny Henry's mum - isn't "fridging", it's Doctor Who. People in guest roles smaller parts are often doomed, going back to the Hartnell era. Nothing to do with race. The cast, overall, is more diverse so - guess what - more diverse people are going to be put in danger! If Lenny and Bradley Walsh switched gigs, it'd be an old white dear in the chair instead. I think that article's general tone is all wrong. No-one should be safe in Who. As for The Doctor's actions in WW2. Well, I thought turning The Master over to The Nazis was a bit cruel for Jodie's Doctor, given her general niceties so far but if she's got one enemy she knew would get out of that (and who she has left in worse situations!) it's him. Honestly I don't think the script even treated it as "drama" so much as comedy, given him then storming into the room 77 years later a la Curse Of The Fatal Death. Maybe turning him over to the French Resistance would have been less cruel but hey...Chibnall knew the character would be back literally seconds later. If that's where The Doctor left him at the END of an ep, I'd agree it would be uncomfortable but knowing he wouldn't be shown to suffer and would be back in mere moments gives that a pass for me, ethically. Still some clunky stuff along the way but hey. As to the second article, I won't give them the click, sorry! Though looking at the headline on the link, well Jodie's acting (and hand-in-hand, what she's been given to act with by Chibnall and co as a well rounded character and with " Doctor-ish moments") has been one of the things I've not loved about the era frankly but not knowing what they're really saying about it, I can't comment more.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2020 17:17:28 GMT
These articles really make my blood boil. 'Offensive' to whom, exactly? Those who are told to be offended?
At least these people are talking about it, I suppose.
And when has a show like Doctor Who ever not been 'beaten' in the *overnight* ratings by crap like Dancing on Ice?
Willfully inaccurate reporting, as usual. It'll be back to Harry and Meghan tomorrow!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2020 17:44:43 GMT
Clickbait. Both of them. Enough said?
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Post by tuigirl on Jan 9, 2020 18:12:53 GMT
These articles really make my blood boil. 'Offensive' to whom, exactly? Those who are told to be offended?
At least these people are talking about it, I suppose.
And when has a show like Doctor Who ever not been 'beaten' in the *overnight* ratings by crap like Dancing on Ice?
Willfully inaccurate reporting, as usual. It'll be back to Harry and Meghan tomorrow!
Honestly, I could not care less. And I am not offended, neither by the episodes nor the reporting.
You guys are so lucky you have Harry and Meghan and the other royals, or, let me rephrase that, Europe is lucky to have them, because otherwise the tabloids, and what formerly has been labelled as "women magazines" (I have never voluntarily even touched one of those), would have nothing to write about. Even in Germany they have no other topic.
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Post by doctorkernow on Jan 9, 2020 18:16:36 GMT
Hello again.
Thanks all. I just think it is interesting to see how Who is perceived generally. Having said that, I do think Doctor Who does tend to attract these sorts of headlines. It is almost like the programme is seen as an easy target to project any manner of criticism at.
No artistic endeavour should be immune to constructive analysis. However, it does seem to be open season on Who again. I do hope Who can weather these turbulent times. At the moment, the language people use in giving their opinions is what is offensive. Apart from on here where generally it is possible to disagree without getting personal or aggressive.
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