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Post by sherlock on Jan 6, 2020 17:27:27 GMT
Very intrigued as to where this arc is going. Last time the series played around with Gallifreyan lore I wasn’t thrilled with the payoff (glares at Hell Bent), but I’m hopeful so far this is going somewhere better.
There’s some speculation about the Time Lords maybe stealing their power/regeneration from a Child but why would the Master take issue with that? Hmmm...
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Post by Digi on Jan 6, 2020 17:27:30 GMT
I know that the stuff in Part One, particularly Stephen Fry's bit, are a bit of a loving nod to the James Bond franchise, but I can't help but feel like all these letter and letter acronyms have some significance we haven't figured out yet. C - Stephen Fry O - the Master VOR - Daniel Barton's company ...or I could be grasping at straws. Worth noting, ‘C’ is actually a real term for the Chief of MI6, not just a James Bond reference. Legit did not know that, a lifetime of watching 007 films had me convinced it was “M”  |
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Post by fitzoliverj on Jan 6, 2020 17:31:39 GMT
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Jan 7, 2020 13:11:57 GMT
Its the Main Antagonist from Time's Crucible, one of the VNA's. Based on the concept of The Timeless Child, he's the first character i thought of lol |
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Jan 7, 2020 13:19:24 GMT
Also I think some Time Lords and Gallifreyans survived and this could all lead to a Trial of The Master story.
With The Doctor forced to defend him after discovering the Truth of The Timeless Child
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Post by Star Platinum on Jan 7, 2020 18:23:10 GMT
I know that the stuff in Part One, particularly Stephen Fry's bit, are a bit of a loving nod to the James Bond franchise, but I can't help but feel like all these letter and letter acronyms have some significance we haven't figured out yet. C - Stephen Fry O - the Master VOR - Daniel Barton's company ...or I could be grasping at straws. Worth noting, ‘C’ is actually a real term for the Chief of MI6, not just a James Bond reference. Here I was thinking it was a nod to the control sketches from fry and laurie. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2020 8:25:04 GMT
Very intrigued as to where this arc is going. Last time the series played around with Gallifreyan lore I wasn’t thrilled with the payoff (glares at Hell Bent), but I’m hopeful so far this is going somewhere better. There’s some speculation about the Time Lords maybe stealing their power/regeneration from a Child but why would the Master take issue with that? Hmmm... They had to murder the child to do it? I imagine it's going to be something really dark. The name Timeless Child does imply that it's something to do with regeneration. |
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Post by chrism1999 on Jan 8, 2020 11:51:59 GMT
Worth noting, ‘C’ is actually a real term for the Chief of MI6, not just a James Bond reference. Legit did not know that, a lifetime of watching 007 films had me convinced it was “M” It's what the Chief of the SIS traditionally signs things as, rather than using their own name, and always in green ink. |
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Post by Digi on Jan 8, 2020 12:44:57 GMT
Legit did not know that, a lifetime of watching 007 films had me convinced it was “M” It's what the Chief of the SIS traditionally signs things as, rather than using their own name, and always in green ink. Yep, was pointed out to me above. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2020 9:25:58 GMT
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Post by mrperson on Jan 12, 2020 20:37:44 GMT
Since this a mystery that will no doubt play out until the end of the series I was wondering what people's thoughts of what it will turn out to be (beyond slightly disappointing) are.
I'd tie together those oddities about the 13th Doctor that in reality are just bad writing, as actually being part of a master-plan or rather a Master plan, and reveal that the person we've been watching for the past two series is not actually the Doctor but an imperfect clone. The Master having snatched up the real one mid-fall before dropping the fake through the train roof so she only actually falls a couple of feet. Because even with post-regeneration healing powers she should have died. It would explain things like why she lets murderers like Art Malik and Mr Big get away with it, why she doesn't seem to know things that other Doctor's did and often seems like just a bystander to events. And also why she seems to be keeping her past secret from her friends, because she can't properly remember it.
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Post by mrperson on Jan 12, 2020 21:50:36 GMT
This post is more stream of consciousness than anything...
I may have to re-watch, but my impression after the first pass was that discovering the truth had to do with why the Master destroyed Gallifrey. So if that theory is correct, my reaction would be "huh? Sounds like something the Master would be pleased about, not angry about."
What would he care if he got to regenerate because some other creature was pent up? He'd probably want to just take the thing for himself to obtain infinite regeneration. And maybe that is the idea. Wipe out the planet, take the thing that gave them regeneration for himself.
Separately, there are a few ways to read this:
“They lied to us – the founding fathers of Gallifrey. Everything they told us was a lie. We’re not who we think, you or I, the whole existence of our species built on the lie of the Timeless Child.”
"the lie of" as possessive, that is, there was/is a "Timeless Child" and it told a lie. The Timelord's existence is built on/using whatever it said.
"the Timeless Child" is a lie told by the founding father's of Gallifrey, and the basis of founding was something worse.
The founding father's of Gallifrey lied about the founding, and as the article speculates, that lie had something to do with a real thing called a "Timeless Child" that they did something to.
Either way, I hope Chibs sticks the landing. I'm having a hard time dreaming up something that feels significant. Whatever it is, it needs to be consistent with the show going forward. So it can't be [Doctor finds out creature is imprisoned leading to regeneration, so Doctor sets it free and.......can't regenerate]. But if it's [actually, the Vampires won and there are no Timelords. We're both vampires!] because what do you do then? What does that change about future episodes? A person's character is in their actions, not birthright.
We shall see....
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2020 22:06:15 GMT
This post is more stream of consciousness than anything...
I may have to re-watch, but my impression after the first pass was that discovering the truth had to do with why the Master destroyed Gallifrey. So if that theory is correct, my reaction would be "huh? Sounds like something the Master would be pleased about, not angry about."
What would he care if he got to regenerate because some other creature was pent up? He'd probably want to just take the thing for himself to obtain infinite regeneration. And maybe that is the idea. Wipe out the planet, take the thing that gave them regeneration for himself.
Probably because it highlights the hypocrisy at the heart of Gallifrey. He (The Master) has been vilified by the Time Lords but they are just as evil as he is. |
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Post by mrperson on Jan 12, 2020 23:18:21 GMT
This post is more stream of consciousness than anything...
I may have to re-watch, but my impression after the first pass was that discovering the truth had to do with why the Master destroyed Gallifrey. So if that theory is correct, my reaction would be "huh? Sounds like something the Master would be pleased about, not angry about."
What would he care if he got to regenerate because some other creature was pent up? He'd probably want to just take the thing for himself to obtain infinite regeneration. And maybe that is the idea. Wipe out the planet, take the thing that gave them regeneration for himself.
Probably because it highlights the hypocrisy at the heart of Gallifrey. He (The Master) has been vilified by the Time Lords but they are just as evil as he is. [Edit: nevermind. Somehow I managed to misread that a bit. The erased bit was generally about how we saw a lot of "they're just as evil" in the Time War. Not as detailed on TV, but implied enough via Ten's comments, and then there's 8 specifically invoking BF companions in "Night of the Doctor"]
Perhaps, yes, he did it out of anger (IF he actually did do it himself) at something like that, but if that article is on the right track, also took whatever it was for himself.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Jan 16, 2020 11:03:58 GMT
Random thought that I had during the night (as you do). What if "everything you think you know is a lie" wasn't the Master's way of getting one over the Doctor, but his way of warning her? What if both of them, the companions, Barton, the mystery aliens, everyone on the planet.. were all pawns in a game? A game orchestrated by someone or something with the powers to dampen the Doctor's natural abilities (might explain how she didn't sense the presence of another Timelord while actually in his presence), suppress the knowledge of extra terrestrial life from the humans (because surely MI6 would have been just the teeny weeniest bit keen to spy on both UNIT and Torchwood during the time both were active to find out what they were up to and build up their own database of knowledge on ETs, rather than casually drop ' O' and his files like a hot potato and dismiss the existence of aliens altogether?) and with just enough of a grudge against the Doctor that they could manipulate events on a massive scale to attempt to bring about her downfall? Granted it is still very early days, but I'm hoping the 'big bad' will turn out to be the Celestial Toymaker or the Black Guardian or the Eternals. Though with my own natural ability to go so far over the top and halfway down the other side when guessing these things it might well turn out to be Tim Shaw or a Pting...😊 Given there was that one scene from the Cardiff shoot with two white and black eccentrically-garbed beings who make references to existing in a more unique state... well, it's not exactly out of the Black Guardian's power to conjure up a fake reality to torment the Doctor. Whether Bald-&-Leathers is him or not, we'll have to wait and see. For anyone who didn't see that a few months back and doesn't know what I'm refering to:
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2020 11:14:00 GMT
Given there was that one scene from the Cardiff shoot with two white and black eccentrically-garbed beings who make references to existing in a more unique state... well, it's not exactly out of the Black Guardian's power to conjure up a fake reality to torment the Doctor. Whether Bald-&-Leathers is him or not, we'll have to wait and see. For anyone who didn't see that a few months back and doesn't know what I'm refering to:
I hadn't seen that! Oh now that is interesting....🤔 Thanks for sharing. |
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Post by iainmclaughlin on Jan 16, 2020 20:27:34 GMT
Omega.
That's my guess for the big bad. Omega. Back to the early days of Gallifrey and Time Lord history not being as everyone thought it was... Kasaavin beasties from another dimension (perhaps an anti-matter univers... are these the replacements for the Gell guards? There's the attempt at a Pertwee vibe going on, the Master being played (Omega has a thing for playing Time Lords... ask Hedin) and then 'Contact' as used in The Three Doctors... I'm still working on 'The Timeless Child'... unless Omega was the child of Gallifrey, cut off from time by his exile? Or... he tried to be reborn on Gallifrey but arrived as a hybrid of matter and anti-matter which the time Lords kept as an infant and used to power their advances, leaving Omega still trapped in the anti-matter realm with a hate of the Time Lords. Okay, ignore that last bit about being reborn. I was letting the imagination run a bit there, but I think the rest might fit.
I anticipate being completely and utterly wrong about absolutely everything.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2020 20:58:33 GMT
I think the lie will indeed be the origin of either time travel or regeneration, that the Time Lords convinced themselves and others that they used technology or metaphysics to achieve this through Omega etc, but they actually stole it from this Timeless Child nefariously. Perhaps the Time Lords had time travel but not regeneration and she, somehow, did and they stole it from her to use to prolong their own lives. They maybe sacrificed this Timeless Child to gain their own sort of immortality. I wouldn't rule out The Doctor being this child, or a reincarnation of them, as when the show has a mystery box...it's usually The Doctor in it.  I think that would also give The Master an incentive as The Doctor being "special" from the dawn of their civilisation would be all he needs to go off the deep end. That's my "don't mention it when I'm wrong but love me when I'm right" guess! I'm actually not a big fan of Gallifrey lore - every time we go there it tends to be full plummy RADA luvvies being terribly confused about the scripts but buggering on regardless. Maybe Chibnall can buck the trend. I thought RTD had the right idea, using it just briefly at the end of the 4 year arc. Moffat too used it sparingly - the 50th was a given - but I think the last time we went there was a bit...hmm. More questions than answers. It'd be nice if this time they stay dead but it's Doctor Who so they won't. Eventually everything comes back. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2020 21:06:35 GMT
I think the lie will indeed be the origin of either time travel or regeneration, that the Time Lords convinced themselves and others that they used technology or metaphysics to achieve this through Omega etc, but they actually stole it from this Timeless Child nefariously. Perhaps the Time Lords had time travel but not regeneration and she, somehow, did and they stole it from her to use to prolong their own lives. They maybe sacrificed this Timeless Child to gain their own sort of immortality. I wouldn't rule out The Doctor being this child, or a reincarnation of them, as when the show has a mystery box...it's usually The Doctor in it. I think that would also give The Master an incentive as The Doctor being "special" from the dawn of their civilisation would be all he needs to go off the deep end. That's my "don't mention it when I'm wrong but love me when I'm right" guess! Definitely think its something to do with regeneration. Hope its nothing to do with The Doctor. Always hated the idea of Doctor Who being something more than just a normal timelord. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2020 21:10:16 GMT
I think the lie will indeed be the origin of either time travel or regeneration, that the Time Lords convinced themselves and others that they used technology or metaphysics to achieve this through Omega etc, but they actually stole it from this Timeless Child nefariously. Perhaps the Time Lords had time travel but not regeneration and she, somehow, did and they stole it from her to use to prolong their own lives. They maybe sacrificed this Timeless Child to gain their own sort of immortality. I wouldn't rule out The Doctor being this child, or a reincarnation of them, as when the show has a mystery box...it's usually The Doctor in it. I think that would also give The Master an incentive as The Doctor being "special" from the dawn of their civilisation would be all he needs to go off the deep end. That's my "don't mention it when I'm wrong but love me when I'm right" guess! Definitely think its something to do with regeneration. Hope its nothing to do with The Doctor. Always hated the idea of Doctor Who being something more than just a normal timelord. Yes - me too. But that's what I'd guess will be case rather than what I'd personally like to be the case. I prefer the wanderer who just got bored observing the Universe and stole a TARDIS myself and really dislike the "Other" stuff and all that "Much more than just another Timelord..." jazz. But showrunners do love it.... |
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I think that would also give The Master an incentive as The Doctor being "special" from the dawn of their civilisation would be all he needs to go off the deep end.