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Post by scriptortempore on Jan 19, 2020 23:36:43 GMT
It really matters when the show is marketing itself with "space for all" etc type branding. That's meant to be more inclusive and part of that should mean tackling aspects of historical figures which aren't spoken about much but really matter, especially when Tesla's justification for eugenics relied on notions of the survival of race and civilisation! Also, the show is meant to be pivoting more towards educational episodes again and well, as DS pointed out he's a much more complex person than just a wonderful visionary of the future, so they're failing in that aspect. I personally didn't expect them to talk about eugenics or other bad things tesla supported/ did but if they were going to leave it out, I'd rather they toned down the hero worship of him. I don't think that has much to do with inclusion so much as an issue of honesty - Who has a spotty track record when it comes to optics on historical figures: being family-friendly has tied their hands often, not helped by having a lot of figures who's myths have overtaken the facts. The real Churchill was very much not Ian McNiece, and let's not get started on Nero in The Romans. Rosa definitely opened the gates for much less-rosy looks into the past, and there's certainly a story there on Tesla's beliefs.
I guess it didn't irk me because I took the story on its own terms and it hooked me in - it's a pulp-throwback and felt it justified itself with strong enough execution. If you feel you can't, I can't blame you for that, nor do I think it's an invalid take, but I can only speak for me. Plus, if kids get hooked into learning more about Tesla, that's not a bad thing and they'll come across this eventually - just like with any part of history they learn, there's light and dark.
Well, I do think it's an issue of inclusion when the show has marketed itself like that. I do of course agree with you that it is an issue of honesty (I study history so it irks me a LOT haha). But if a show is going to market itself as inclusive, then it should be properly inclusive. In fact the failures of Chibnall's era to be inclusive has been one of my main gripes with his run (Obviously that's a side issue but I think if you're interested in that argument I'd particularly recommend woke Doctor Who's episode on Rosa where two American women of colour discuss failures in that episode). I'm not sure the show is tied by being family friendly? Classic Who certainly was able to tackle myths and racist caricatures in stories like the Crusade without resorting to anything which would be deemed non family friendly. I'm not really sure exactly how discussing that would make it non family friendly, at least in a way that a show which has nazi robots as its main villain and has for a very long time focused on the Doctor committing genocide should have a problem with. Whilst I do understand your argument about taking the episode on its own terms I've got a few issues with it. Firstly, I don't think it really negates the fact that the series as a whole is meant to have this inclusive vision so I see no reason to give a single episode an exception? I also did not like the episode at all, aside from the eugenics issues, so I couldn't as easily put those issues to the back of mind. Ultimately though, there are times when you can't take an episode solely on its own terms, because pulpy or not that erasure a lot of fans of a certain background face when watching sci-fi seemed really on show here. Like with Talons, maybe it was unconscious but it doesn't stop people feeling alienated from their favourite show. And as someone who would be affected by Tesla's eugenics ideas, I got reminded of the failures of Who to include people like me and that simply isn't good enough. And that is, again, in a series which is marketing itself as inclusive! The idea of an episode about Tesla's beliefs could really work btw! I mean he wasn't a fan of criminals and well, this is a show all about a criminal who didn't fit into their society! It really matters when the show is marketing itself with "space for all" etc type branding. That's meant to be more inclusive and part of that should mean tackling aspects of historical figures which aren't spoken about much but really matter, especially when Tesla's justification for eugenics relied on notions of the survival of race and civilisation! Also, the show is meant to be pivoting more towards educational episodes again and well, as DS pointed out he's a much more complex person than just a wonderful visionary of the future, so they're failing in that aspect. I personally didn't expect them to talk about eugenics or other bad things tesla supported/ did but if they were going to leave it out, I'd rather they toned down the hero worship of him. But what do you really do? Where do you fit your condemnation of Tesla's support of eugenics among the scorpion scavenger aliens, the Doctor saving the day and Edison being horrible? Yes Tesla was a complicated person with some horrible beliefs but he was also the guy who in large part imagined the 20th & 21st centuries. I think if someone is interested enough in Tesla after this episode, then they can do their own research and find out things for themselves. As an episode, I thought this was light as a feather and a lot of fun. Glennister's American dialect wasn't the worst I've heard. I read that they filmed this in Bulgaria. Which, if you don't know, is a really popular filming destination. The show looks great. I still don't know that I will ever look at Whittaker's Doctor as being anything other than a female counterpart to Tennant's Doctor. Anyway. I'm just happy the show is 4-0.
As I said, I think they could've at least toned the hero worship down a bit. But if some rewrites were absolutely necessary to make the show more educational and inclusive, so be it. Not everyone will be interested enough in Tesla, and for those who aren't, the episode will only have helped perpetuate this idea of him as this perfect man. I agree with nucleusofswarm in thinking that kids getting hooked on Tesla is pretty cool, but I don't think that requires losing a critical perspective on historical figures. Even more so if the goal was to promote interest in science and inventions which I think can be easily achieved without hero worshipping Tesla given the fact that the Doctor is clearly meant to be an advocate for those things. Well Digital Spy is a pretty shoddy website but I wonder if they made similar comments every time Winston Churchill featured in an episode? Hope so, not a fan of how Winston was portrayed during the Moffat years.
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Post by scriptortempore on Jan 19, 2020 23:46:01 GMT
Teslas, and for that matter, Wells thoughts on Eugenics were pretty much a product of there time. And predicting it, is a tad different to supporting it. Reading Tesla's writings there is clearly a normative element to his prediction. Arguing that sterilisation of criminals and the insane is "not sufficient" and referring to the ideas of a "desirable parent" along with preserving race and civilisation is pretty clearly to me a normative idea, which whilst of its time, is still repugnant. Going out and writing and articulating these arguments and encouraging them is much more than passive unquestioning of societal values. Most of all, his argument that "Certainly no one who is not a desirable parent should be permitted to produce progeny" is key here because of the use of the word should. Should is not the word you use when you're making a prediction you're not supportive of. You'd say something like "in the future people won't be able to do XYZ".
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2020 23:51:35 GMT
Hope so, not a fan of how Winston was portrayed during the Moffat years. What a surprise...Zzzzz
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2020 0:00:55 GMT
Hope so, not a fan of how Winston was portrayed during the Moffat years. What a surprise...Zzzzz You know...you are allowed to just not post instead of having to dismiss someones opinions out of hand with a narky comment. Or heaven forbid make a reasoned response instead of a pithy one word or single line comment.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2020 0:03:12 GMT
You know...you are allowed to just not post instead of having to dismiss someones opinions out of hand with a narky comment. Or heaven forbid make a reasoned response instead of a pithy one word or single line comment. I know.
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Post by pazzer on Jan 20, 2020 0:07:18 GMT
First 5 mins were great until the Doctor showed up and things started getting confusing. No explanation for where Tardis is though it just shows up later. Not really sure why Edison's workers were killed but Dorothy was held as a hostage. Curious how Skithra got there, do they posess time travel and why didn't the Doctor erase Edison's and Tesla's memories. Would have prefered a pure historical but still the best episode of the season so far.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Jan 20, 2020 0:27:05 GMT
Hope so, not a fan of how Winston was portrayed during the Moffat years. What a surprise...Zzzzz That is rude.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Jan 20, 2020 1:03:12 GMT
Now, script and I don't see eye to eye on the subject of Tesla's depiction in this episode, but we are both agreed in the need, and importance, of better optics and more conciousness in depiction of problematic people and periods in Who. I agree that the show has a duty to call out and highlight the errors of the past and make us more critical of even 'great' people. It makes for richer drama and challenges writers more, as well as allow stories to speak to and reflect the issues that face the more vunerable in our community. I'm heavily involved with a media franchise about children with autism - it should go without saying where I stand on eugenics (spoilers: I abhor and despise it.)
For some, this episode will be a bridge too far and that history will be a barrier to entry, like with sci-fi elements in Rosa. I don't think it makes anyone wrong or disingenuous if they feel that way. It didn't bother me, insofar as this story goes because I had made my particular peace with that, but I don't think it's fair to dismiss the complaint either. Tolerance matters.
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Jan 20, 2020 1:15:42 GMT
Did anyone else get the idea of the Skithra being a scavenger race living off the work of others being a bit of snark thrown at Edison, who did a much more polite version of the same thing?
I really enjoyed that. The story felt like it was allowed to breathe a little more through the virtue of starting somewhere close to the beginning. Performances were pretty solid: Graham was back to his usual self; Ryan had little to do but what he did do was important; and Yaz had more screen time than usual but didn’t seem to do much. The Doctor was great: the whole thing with her geeking out over Tesla and MacGyvering gear into something she could use was terrific. I did enjoy the brief return to “plugging stuff into the console” which doesn’t happen enough in the revived show. The guest cast were terrific as well, with the possible exception of Dorothy who seemed to only function as Tesla’s fangirl. The Skithra looked great but the queen felt a little cliched. Like many I got a huge Racnoss Queen vibe off her, even down to the way she spoke and moved her head.
It looked great, though, paced itself nicely and was a pretty solid episode of some traditional Who.
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Post by nottenst on Jan 20, 2020 3:50:29 GMT
First 5 mins were great until the Doctor showed up and things started getting confusing. No explanation for where Tardis is though it just shows up later. Not really sure why Edison's workers were killed but Dorothy was held as a hostage. Curious how Skithra got there, do they posess time travel and why didn't the Doctor erase Edison's and Tesla's memories. Would have prefered a pure historical but still the best episode of the season so far. I also wondered about no memory wipe this episode and no alternate explanation of the death of Edison's workers. Anyone know if there actually was an Edison factory disaster at the time which killed a load of workers? Interesting episode. It joined in on the current theme of the season when the Queen of the Skithra threatened to make Earth a dead planet.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2020 4:12:32 GMT
Now, script and I don't see eye to eye on the subject of Tesla's depiction in this episode, but we are both agreed in the need, and importance, of better optics and more conciousness in depiction of problematic people and periods in Who. I agree that the show has a duty to call out and highlight the errors of the past and make us more critical of even 'great' people. It makes for richer drama and challenges writers more, as well as allow stories to speak to and reflect the issues that face the more vunerable in our community. I'm heavily involved with a media franchise about children with autism - it should go without saying where I stand on eugenics (spoilers: I abhor and despise it.) For some, this episode will be a bridge too far and that history will be a barrier to entry, like with sci-fi elements in Rosa. I don't think it makes anyone wrong or disingenuous if they feel that way. It didn't bother me, insofar as this story goes because I had made my particular peace with that, but I don't think it's fair to dismiss the complaint either. Tolerance matters. Tesla's views on eugenics are actually a pretty good jumping-off point for how widely spread it was in the early twentieth-century. People forget that in the 1920s, American universities widely accepted the concept as a "genuine" field of study. A woman called Carrie Buck became the centre of a legal case that authorised forced sterilisation for... I can't even say it. The Supreme Court case passed it with 8-1. It's a discussion that embodies something very dark and terrible at the heart of the United States (and the West) at the time. *pinches bridge of nose* Because it was only an idea. A far-off notion that existed conceptually. You didn't have the photographs, the testimonials, the sheer... horror, of such a notion yet. Not on the scale that it would become. These things don't happen in a vacuum, you'd have to talk about the societal pressures as well.
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Post by Timelord007 on Jan 20, 2020 8:23:40 GMT
Loved it, this episode had me gripped from start to finish, good story, paced & directed well unlike last weeks Michael Bay frenzied nauseating rapid fire editng, nice see Robert Glenister back in Doctor Who but Goran Visinjic was outstanding as Tesla & i could even see Goran in the role of a future Doctor as he brought all those amazing qualities the Doctor has although that's highly unlikely.
As many of you know i been going through the mill recently but this episode for 50 minutes made me forget my worries & gave me a insight into Tesla who i knew nothing about, as in life it's the one's you don't hear much about who are the real geniuses.
5/5.
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Jan 20, 2020 13:02:15 GMT
A Huge step up from last weeks episode.
Goran was a fantastic Tesla for this story
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2020 13:05:27 GMT
4.04 million viewers for this last night.
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Post by barnabaslives on Jan 20, 2020 14:15:53 GMT
That was amazing. That's quite likely my favorite Thirteen Doctor episode to date (with the possible exception of Rosa). No complaints about them not digging deeper into Tesla's life or persona with roughly only 45 minutes to work with. In fact, it was lovely to see such a flattering comparison of Tesla's good points with The Doctor's. That "childlike gleam" came across so well - and bravo, Mr. Goran - and Tesla's rivalry with Edison made for plenty for human interest.
I have to compliment this episode on the visuals, too - I mean, they've generally been very good these past two seasons, but that was eye candy even on a four by three inch display.
Very well done all around!
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Post by fingersmash on Jan 20, 2020 15:13:15 GMT
This was such a wonderful episode. It felt like a throwback to the really good RTD Celebrity Historicals. If Ryan, Graham, and Yaz were replaced with Donna, this could have slotted into Series 4 perfectly.
All in all, Thirteen continues to shine in history and weird and boh got shown off here.
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Post by timegirl on Jan 20, 2020 16:57:19 GMT
That was really good 😊and I love the dynamic between 13 and Tesla ( BF please give us a 13 and Tesla box set one day!) I love the parallels of how they both see the world different from everyone else and how they are both constantly inventing things😊Tesla even has his own companion!😀 I also liked the parallels between Edison and the big bad ( sorry I can’t remember the species name) and how they both steal and take credit for others work and have superiority complexes. I also agree it did feel very RTD historical, there are a lot of things about this series that feel very RTD Spyfall for instance was very reminiscent of series 3 finale🤔 The companions didn’t always have enough to ( except for Graham 😉) 🤔 The episode overall was brilliant though and a highlight this season!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2020 17:12:18 GMT
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Post by ollychops on Jan 20, 2020 17:18:09 GMT
Okay, so time for more expanded thoughts. This definitely felt like an RTD-era episode to me, and whilst I was positive about the episode in my previous post (because it is a step up from Orphan 55!), if this had been from the RTD era, it would have been one of the decent-but-forgettable stories, so the fact that it's one of Jodie's better stories says how low the bar is at the moment...
But yes, it was a good story. I don't really have many qualms with it. The main issue I had (which is only a very minor quibble at best) was the weird editing of Thirteen, Tesla and Dorothy going from the lab to the train - it was quite jarring.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2020 17:22:59 GMT
Has anyone seen last years film The Current War? Set a few decades before this but Edison and Tesla are both in it (portrayed by Benedict Cumberbatch and Nicholas Hoult respectively) while George Westinhouse, Edison's big rival in the earlier years is played by the great Michael Shannon. Quite an interesting cast - I've not seen it myself but it's on YT streaming for a few quid so I think I'll check it out.
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