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Post by Tim Bradley on Jan 20, 2020 18:01:33 GMT
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Post by shallacatop on Jan 20, 2020 20:37:51 GMT
Thought that was a great piece of Doctor Who. A welcome return of the celebrity historical, a lovely performance from Goran Visnjic and a lot of fun. It balances the rivalry between Edison & Tesla, the educational aspect and the threat well. I loved the soundtrack and the TARDIS console room looks better in blue and white than it does orange.
I think it could’ve been something a little more unique and standout if it’d gone more in-depth into Tesla’s life and the rivalry, rather than a Wikipedia checklist, but that’s less a criticism and more a general comment. The story doesn’t go for that and that’s fine.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2020 20:43:31 GMT
Been quite a while since a guest star got so much praise across the board. I wonder if Goran knows how well he's gone down in the Who world.
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Post by tuigirl on Jan 20, 2020 21:18:02 GMT
Well, this was more like it! It was great. I agree with all of you, Tesla was definitely the highlight of the episode. Yes, of course he also had his dark sides, but I just loved that childlike wonder he shared with the Doctor. For some reason, the episode reminded me a bit of the one with van Gogh. It certainly was in a very similar vein. And I also agree that this felt very much in the style of RTD, including the Racnoss stand-ins. So yes, I really liked this.
I hope the coming episodes continue this trend.
One thing I was wondering though- what happened to these laser shoes? After they were (annoyingly) left, right and centre in Skyfall, now they have been forgotten again? Don't tell me they ran out of juice and they could not recharge them with all that wireless power floating about?
EDIT- another thing. Did anyone else think that 13 was channeling her inner 10th Doctor? All this talk about "you had your one chance" and her being pretty ruthless... still the "no guns" rule, but at the same time building a HUGE electric cannon.
All this moral dissonance reminded me a lot of the 10th Doctor. So we are definitely keeping the dark side of 13 in the background of this series...
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Jan 21, 2020 0:43:50 GMT
Well, this was more like it! It was great. I agree with all of you, Tesla was definitely the highlight of the episode. Yes, of course he also had his dark sides, but I just loved that childlike wonder he shared with the Doctor. For some reason, the episode reminded me a bit of the one with van Gogh. It certainly was in a very similar vein. And I also agree that this felt very much in the style of RTD, including the Racnoss stand-ins. So yes, I really liked this.
I hope the coming episodes continue this trend.
One thing I was wondering though- what happened to these laser shoes? After they were (annoyingly) left, right and centre in Skyfall, now they have been forgotten again? Don't tell me they ran out of juice and they could not recharge them with all that wireless power floating about?
EDIT- another thing. Did anyone else think that 13 was channeling her inner 10th Doctor? All this talk about "you had your one chance" and her being pretty ruthless... still the "no guns" rule, but at the same time building a HUGE electric cannon.
All this moral dissonance reminded me a lot of the 10th Doctor. So we are definitely keeping the dark side of 13 in the background of this series...
Graham probably didn’t pack them: didn’t they say they were visiting Niagara when they intercepted a signal? Also, I agree with you on the moral dissonance: every Doctor has objected to guns (some more vocally than others), but they’ll use a weapon if they have to. It’s like they want to try everything else first but usually have to do something violent.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2020 1:20:41 GMT
Been quite a while since a guest star got so much praise across the board. I wonder if Goran knows how well he's gone down in the Who world. I hope so. It'd be great to have him back in one capacity or another, he has a terrific presence. Well, this was more like it! It was great. I agree with all of you, Tesla was definitely the highlight of the episode. Yes, of course he also had his dark sides, but I just loved that childlike wonder he shared with the Doctor. For some reason, the episode reminded me a bit of the one with van Gogh. It certainly was in a very similar vein. And I also agree that this felt very much in the style of RTD, including the Racnoss stand-ins. So yes, I really liked this.
I hope the coming episodes continue this trend. One thing I was wondering though- what happened to these laser shoes? After they were (annoyingly) left, right and centre in Skyfall, now they have been forgotten again? Don't tell me they ran out of juice and they could not recharge them with all that wireless power floating about? EDIT- another thing. Did anyone else think that 13 was channeling her inner 10th Doctor? All this talk about "you had your one chance" and her being pretty ruthless... still the "no guns" rule, but at the same time building a HUGE electric cannon.
All this moral dissonance reminded me a lot of the 10th Doctor. So we are definitely keeping the dark side of 13 in the background of this series...
Graham probably didn’t pack them: didn’t they say they were visiting Niagara when they intercepted a signal? Also, I agree with you on the moral dissonance: every Doctor has objected to guns (some more vocally than others), but they’ll use a weapon if they have to. It’s like they want to try everything else first but usually have to do something violent. It looked like they were freight-hopping, so they might've only packed what fit a set of backpacks. Incidentally, whichever season it may be, I love these little implications at the beginning of stories that they're having a quiet day doing something else when the episode happens. There's something really nice about dropping in on the Doctor while they're fishing for gumblejack, having tea in a Singapore cafe or hiking up in Scandinavia. Oh, even the Doctor's aware of it. I think every incarnation is anti-killing, but whether or not they'll use subduing violence (with a chance of killing) varies from persona to persona. Thirteen's Venusian aikido has popped up quite a bit in the EU, but not so much in the television series proper. She seems to be developing much more in the vein of setting Troughton-style traps for her enemies. The not-quite-perfect plan reminded me a bit of The Krotons or The Seeds of Death.
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Post by chopper on Jan 21, 2020 10:29:00 GMT
Well laser shoes are essentially laser guns, so the doc has probably chucked and chided.
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Post by sherlock on Jan 21, 2020 11:08:36 GMT
Well, this was more like it! It was great. I agree with all of you, Tesla was definitely the highlight of the episode. Yes, of course he also had his dark sides, but I just loved that childlike wonder he shared with the Doctor. For some reason, the episode reminded me a bit of the one with van Gogh. It certainly was in a very similar vein. And I also agree that this felt very much in the style of RTD, including the Racnoss stand-ins. So yes, I really liked this.
I hope the coming episodes continue this trend.
One thing I was wondering though- what happened to these laser shoes? After they were (annoyingly) left, right and centre in Skyfall, now they have been forgotten again? Don't tell me they ran out of juice and they could not recharge them with all that wireless power floating about?
EDIT- another thing. Did anyone else think that 13 was channeling her inner 10th Doctor? All this talk about "you had your one chance" and her being pretty ruthless... still the "no guns" rule, but at the same time building a HUGE electric cannon.
All this moral dissonance reminded me a lot of the 10th Doctor. So we are definitely keeping the dark side of 13 in the background of this series...
As Graham couldn’t even aim the shoes, I suspect the Doctor confiscated them the first chance she got.
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Post by number13 on Jan 22, 2020 0:06:10 GMT
Well, this was more like it! It was great. I agree with all of you, Tesla was definitely the highlight of the episode. Yes, of course he also had his dark sides, but I just loved that childlike wonder he shared with the Doctor. For some reason, the episode reminded me a bit of the one with van Gogh. It certainly was in a very similar vein. And I also agree that this felt very much in the style of RTD, including the Racnoss stand-ins. So yes, I really liked this.
I hope the coming episodes continue this trend.
One thing I was wondering though- what happened to these laser shoes? After they were (annoyingly) left, right and centre in Skyfall, now they have been forgotten again? Don't tell me they ran out of juice and they could not recharge them with all that wireless power floating about?
EDIT- another thing. Did anyone else think that 13 was channeling her inner 10th Doctor? All this talk about "you had your one chance" and her being pretty ruthless... still the "no guns" rule, but at the same time building a HUGE electric cannon.
All this moral dissonance reminded me a lot of the 10th Doctor. So we are definitely keeping the dark side of 13 in the background of this series...
As Graham couldn’t even aim the shoes, I suspect the Doctor confiscated them the first chance she got. Or (imagined deleted scene) Graham scrapped them after he shot himself in the foot. With the other foot.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2020 0:16:03 GMT
As Graham couldn’t even aim the shoes, I suspect the Doctor confiscated them the first chance she got. Or (imagined deleted scene) Graham scrapped them after he shot himself in the foot. With the other foot. Ah, the classic one-two shuffle.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Jan 22, 2020 9:37:29 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2020 19:43:06 GMT
That was so, so, so good. This series is on a such a roll for me. It has taken all the good things from Series 11 and built on them. The regulars are great - it's true that I still want to know more about Yaz and Ryan, but they are very likeable and never irritating, which I can't say for some previous companions. It's great to see Robert Glenister in Doctor Who again, and this time he even gets to go inside the TARDIS. I loved the Arachnoss-like queen and her beautifully realised, red-eyed scorpion creatures. The scenes with them crashing through the market square were electrifying. Just great fun, terrifically well made, in a series that, for me, is going from strength to strength. Segun's music continues to impress - I hope there'll be a series 12 soundtrack release - and Jodie gets better all the time. Top marks for this.
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Post by mrperson on Jan 23, 2020 0:06:57 GMT
Eh, it wasn't bad but I wasn't as impressed as many here. Seemed pretty standard alien invasion fare. Aliens looked like racnoss in scorpion form, even sounded similar (though I admit it's been a while). I wasn't really a fan of the tone-down palpatine running around hand-zapping people.
Seemed pretty standard.
I was rather hoping the ship would explode, not just run away...
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Post by number13 on Jan 23, 2020 0:13:54 GMT
Eh, it wasn't bad but I wasn't as impressed as many here. Seemed pretty standard alien invasion fare. Aliens looked like racnoss in scorpion form, even sounded similar (though I admit it's been a while). I wasn't really a fan of the tone-down palpatine running around hand-zapping people. Seemed pretty standard. I was rather hoping the ship would explode, not just run away... You're thinking in the wrong era... I was too! Ah for the days when one of Matt Irvine's great models would have appeared on screen for a fraction of a second and then been blown into eternity!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2020 0:36:59 GMT
Eh, it wasn't bad but I wasn't as impressed as many here. Seemed pretty standard alien invasion fare. Aliens looked like racnoss in scorpion form, even sounded similar (though I admit it's been a while). I wasn't really a fan of the tone-down palpatine running around hand-zapping people. Seemed pretty standard. I was rather hoping the ship would explode, not just run away... You're thinking in the wrong era... I was too! Ah for the days when one of Mat Irvine's great models would have appeared on screen for a fraction of a second and then been blown into eternity! *scratches chin* What's been the series best, do you reckon? I've money on Terror of the Zygons.
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Post by mrperson on Jan 23, 2020 0:51:29 GMT
You're thinking in the wrong era... I was too! Ah for the days when one of Mat Irvine's great models would have appeared on screen for a fraction of a second and then been blown into eternity! *scratches chin* What's been the series best, do you reckon? I've money on Terror of the Zygons.
Much better than "I can destroy you with one word" or whatever it was. Nu Who doc is a little too peaceful. (I say that, but there's incongruence: he burned his planet before he undid it, but he couldn't have known he could ever undo it. I suppose that is one explanation for uber-pacifism in post-time-war doc....but still. Double genocide because it was a lesser of two evils)
He wasn't a pacifist. He was violence last, yes, but violence when truly necessary. As realistic as it could be for some hyper-intelligent being who usually could find another way. But sometimes you really can't. Sometimes violence IS the answer, like it or not.
The problem is simply that people are lazy, and too often violence is a quicker route to a result.
If I was the baddies and this super-pacifist made me run away, I'd probably make a note to try again later, perhaps when that other person isn't looking.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2020 1:35:09 GMT
*scratches chin* What's been the series best, do you reckon? I've money on Terror of the Zygons.
Much better than "I can destroy you with one word" or whatever it was. Nu Who doc is a little too peaceful. (I say that, but there's incongruence: he burned his planet before he undid it, but he couldn't have known he could ever undo it. I suppose that is one explanation for uber-pacifism in post-time-war doc....but still. Double genocide because it was a lesser of two evils)
He wasn't a pacifist. He was violence last, yes, but violence when truly necessary. As realistic as it could be for some hyper-intelligent being who usually could find another way. But sometimes you really can't. Sometimes violence IS the answer, like it or not.
The problem is simply that people are lazy, and too often violence is a quicker route to a result.
If I was the baddies and this super-pacifist made me run away, I'd probably make a note to try again later, perhaps when that other person isn't looking.
Well, going back to The Seeds of Death: Earth isn't even the Doctor's world at this point, really. I think that whole complex debate about violence is at the heart of Doctor Who. That's its lifeblood. No better exemplified by the Thals in the original Dalek story where Ian's trying to convince them to fight back. Not for vengeance or anything as purile as that, but to survive. To prevent the extermination of their culture. It's about knowing when to pick up the sword and when to lay it down again. And that's not always clear. The lesson taught (and the lesson to be repeatedly learned) is that to turn to any form of violence is not a light thing. It's a heavy, difficult decision and should always be so. And it is always, ultimately, a failure. Violence as an immediate form of action is a failure perpetrated by those who believe they can take advantage of others. Through force of arms, through brute strength and the application of fear. It's why the ability to sit down and talk is treated with such reverence and respect. It's no small feat. Cooperation in opposition to the arrogance of war. But, to quote another Ice Warrior story, one where they renounced their role as warriors:
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Post by mrperson on Jan 23, 2020 2:05:57 GMT
Much better than "I can destroy you with one word" or whatever it was. Nu Who doc is a little too peaceful. (I say that, but there's incongruence: he burned his planet before he undid it, but he couldn't have known he could ever undo it. I suppose that is one explanation for uber-pacifism in post-time-war doc....but still. Double genocide because it was a lesser of two evils)
He wasn't a pacifist. He was violence last, yes, but violence when truly necessary. As realistic as it could be for some hyper-intelligent being who usually could find another way. But sometimes you really can't. Sometimes violence IS the answer, like it or not.
The problem is simply that people are lazy, and too often violence is a quicker route to a result.
If I was the baddies and this super-pacifist made me run away, I'd probably make a note to try again later, perhaps when that other person isn't looking.
Well, going back to The Seeds of Death: Earth isn't even the Doctor's world at this point, really. I think that whole complex debate about violence is at the heart of Doctor Who. That's its lifeblood. No better exemplified by the Thals in the original Dalek story where Ian's trying to convince them to fight back. Not for vengeance or anything as purile as that, but to survive. To prevent the extermination of their culture. It's about knowing when to pick up the sword and when to lay it down again. And that's not always clear. The lesson taught (and the lesson to be repeatedly learned) is that to turn to any form of violence is not a light thing. It's a heavy, difficult decision and should always be so. And it is always, ultimately, a failure. Violence as an immediate form of action is a failure perpetrated by those who believe they can take advantage of others. Through force of arms, through brute strength and the application of fear. It's why the ability to sit down and talk is treated with such reverence and respect. It's no small feat. Cooperation in opposition to the arrogance of war. But, to quote another Ice Warrior story, one where they renounced their role as warriors: I suppose, to turn it back to this episode, the question may become: is violence only justified by necessity of one's own survival, or another's?
I'd say the destruction of Gallifrey #1 points to the latter, but counting in the other direction is the fact that it was Daleks+Timelords, or everyone else. Not just one other race.
Perhaps the simplest answer is that the Doctor could not tell, did not have the means to tell, whether the weapon cooked up here would destroy the ship or do something less. It was done in a hurry, was necessary, and was the only answer. So it was done, results to be what they would be.
If a more minimal option is justified, perhaps that. But on that point, query: what if the minimal solution leaves less blood on the Doctor's hands, but results in the target destroying another race? What if these scorpion-people buggered off only to do worse to another race? What if destruction should have been the point despite it not being necessary for the victims-at-hand?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2020 4:06:39 GMT
Well, going back to The Seeds of Death: Earth isn't even the Doctor's world at this point, really. I think that whole complex debate about violence is at the heart of Doctor Who. That's its lifeblood. No better exemplified by the Thals in the original Dalek story where Ian's trying to convince them to fight back. Not for vengeance or anything as purile as that, but to survive. To prevent the extermination of their culture. It's about knowing when to pick up the sword and when to lay it down again. And that's not always clear. The lesson taught (and the lesson to be repeatedly learned) is that to turn to any form of violence is not a light thing. It's a heavy, difficult decision and should always be so. And it is always, ultimately, a failure. Violence as an immediate form of action is a failure perpetrated by those who believe they can take advantage of others. Through force of arms, through brute strength and the application of fear. It's why the ability to sit down and talk is treated with such reverence and respect. It's no small feat. Cooperation in opposition to the arrogance of war. But, to quote another Ice Warrior story, one where they renounced their role as warriors: I suppose, to turn it back to this episode, the question may become: is violence only justified by necessity of one's own survival, or another's?
I'd say the destruction of Gallifrey #1 points to the latter, but counting in the other direction is the fact that it was Daleks+Timelords, or everyone else. Not just one other race.
Perhaps the simplest answer is that the Doctor could not tell, did not have the means to tell, whether the weapon cooked up here would destroy the ship or do something less. It was done in a hurry, was necessary, and was the only answer. So it was done, results to be what they would be.
If a more minimal option is justified, perhaps that. But on that point, query: what if the minimal solution leaves less blood on the Doctor's hands, but results in the target destroying another race? What if these scorpion-people buggered off only to do worse to another race? What if destruction should have been the point despite it not being necessary for the victims-at-hand?
Really pertinent questions. Not easy ones either. If we look at the Cybermen for comparison, they're interested in survival by any means necessary. Compliance isn't a factor. "You will become like us," isn't a request, nor an offer, but a statement. The Doctor, conversely, often gives their enemies a choice. By word or by action. Walk away or have violence be met with violence. Regardless of the incarnation, I feel the Doctor's often willing to accept the toll exacted by such a refusal, if it means saving others. May not always be prepared for it, but they can handle it. They have practice, unfortunately. Judging from the Doctor's reactions in the episode, I think the trap was made with the intention of destroying the ship. It just didn't turn out that way. Another enemy may've tried again with crippled resources, but given the Skithra's scavenging MO, it made sense that they chose just to leave. Mind you, they can't have been in a good state when they did... I doubt they truly understood the full mechanics of their vessel in the same way as the Zygons would.
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Post by tuigirl on Jan 23, 2020 9:08:41 GMT
Concerning the discussion about Doctor Who an violence.
I am really not very happy with the hypocritical approach to the Doctor's approach to weapons, as demonstrated in this episode. I agree that there always has been violence, and some serials, like Resurrection of the Daleks I found pretty hard to watch. I think back at the day, it had more deaths than movies like Rambo?
I think I prefer Sixie's approach to violence and weapons. He is not shy of picking up a weapon (or a jar of poison) and doing the deed himself to protect himself, his companions and whoever it is he is protecting that episode. This is honest and relatable and makes sense.
In this Tesla episode, however, small hand guns are forbidden, while a huge electrical cannon is build which may or may not destroy a whole ship full of sentient creatures. I just cannot grasp the reasoning behind this. For me, this is a real dissonance and at the worst very hypocritical.
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