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Post by tuigirl on Jan 22, 2020 21:11:26 GMT
Yes I don’t know what the solution is? But what maybe a blah kind of story to many may be the one that entices someone to buy their first Bf. Stop writing Universe destroying scenarios...Gallifrey did it Romana-The Destroyer of Worlds bloody hell come on just a good woman fighting bad odds works for me lolIts interesting as I was just reflecting on the recent River release that she really doesn’t need those kind of stories and neither does The Doctor(well not always 😎🤪😉) It would be nice to see some small scale stories for a change I do agree. You could do an entire story for example featuring the Doctor and the Master/Rani/Monk/Eleven stuck in a room and just talking. It would take a particularly daring and talented writer to pull it off but it could truly be something special. Think ‘Masterplan’ from one of the Dark Eyes boxset as an example but just the two of them. I am still up for a small scale story of the Doctor and his companions cleaning and exploring the TARDIS and engaging in a lot of heart warming banter. No monster needed.
I really hope the new series of 8th Doctor adventures goes back to some small scale stuff and we get at least one episode of the cast just chilling in their new flat. They have the fun new character Andy along, he might bounce of Liv VERY well. I know the authors said it is no sitcom, but they could at least take one page out of a sitcom book. I am not saying they should copy the Big Bang Theory. However, surprise, most of the time nobody threatened the universe in the Big Bang Theory, but it still ran for a looong time. So it is possible to tell stories like that.
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Post by frisby78 on Jan 22, 2020 21:55:21 GMT
It would be nice to see some small scale stories for a change I do agree. You could do an entire story for example featuring the Doctor and the Master/Rani/Monk/Eleven stuck in a room and just talking. It would take a particularly daring and talented writer to pull it off but it could truly be something special. Think ‘Masterplan’ from one of the Dark Eyes boxset as an example but just the two of them. I am still up for a small scale story of the Doctor and his companions cleaning and exploring the TARDIS and engaging in a lot of heart warming banter. No monster needed.
I really hope the new series of 8th Doctor adventures goes back to some small scale stuff and we get at least one episode of the cast just chilling in their new flat. They have the fun new character Andy along, he might bounce of Liv VERY well. I know the authors said it is no sitcom, but they could at least take one page out of a sitcom book. I am not saying they should copy the Big Bang Theory. However, surprise, most of the time nobody threatened the universe in the Big Bang Theory, but it still ran for a looong time. So it is possible to tell stories like that. I think the problem is that now 4 box run seems to be the thing for 8 they almost seem obliged to build it up to an earth shattering conclusion. Maybe just doing some standalone sets telling small scale stories would be an idea.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2020 22:14:37 GMT
I am still up for a small scale story of the Doctor and his companions cleaning and exploring the TARDIS and engaging in a lot of heart warming banter. No monster needed.
I really hope the new series of 8th Doctor adventures goes back to some small scale stuff and we get at least one episode of the cast just chilling in their new flat. They have the fun new character Andy along, he might bounce of Liv VERY well. I know the authors said it is no sitcom, but they could at least take one page out of a sitcom book. I am not saying they should copy the Big Bang Theory. However, surprise, most of the time nobody threatened the universe in the Big Bang Theory, but it still ran for a looong time. So it is possible to tell stories like that. I think the problem is that now 4 box run seems to be the thing for 8 they almost seem obliged to build it up to an earth shattering conclusion. Maybe just doing some standalone sets telling small scale stories would be an idea. I wish. I long for a return to just fun adventures for 8 rather than every single time some villain is going to destroy time/the universe/etc. It's boring. When the whole of the universe is at risk the threat feels less somehow. No interest in buying 8 Doctor stuff anymore sadly.
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Post by barnabaslives on Jan 22, 2020 22:53:59 GMT
I actually liked this quite a bit. I think it maybe seemed a bit short on whiz-bang because the end of the universe / doomsday thingie stuff almost seemed less the focus rather than being the gimmick-in-your-face. The story just seemed a bit subtle and pensive rather than uneventful really. To me that seemed like probably a refreshing change of pace as end of the universe stories go.
Certainly not the Seventh Doctor version of Sixie's Last Adventure I daydreamed about (of course not, that would have been a box set with Mel and Roz and Chris and Hex too), but it did scratch that itch, and it was good to see a noteworthy Big Finish innovation like The Eleven hit the monthly range and nice to see him in a context other than a four box set series.
Here I was focused less on "can they keep him interesting for the whole series" and more on what a terrific job Mark Bonnar does with this character. That's really one of the enduring things about The Eleven.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2020 9:13:56 GMT
I finished this off yesterday and it's been interesting reading everyone's thoughts on it.
It's certainly a mixed bag. Mark Bonnar remains excellent and clearly relishes the role (I thought it was lovely to hear in the interviews that he likes doing extra takes whenever possible, and Sophie Aldred mentioning him being a very physical performer and leaping around in the recording booth made me grin!)
I liked the concept of the Dark Universe a lot and thought it was very sinister, especially with the reveal. From the blurb I expected a much darker story going in and was surprised how whimsical a lot of parts were. The closing scene where a subdued Seventh Doctor acknowledges to the Dark Universe inhabitant that he will soon meet his end was a lovely subtle scene from Sylvester, although I didn't fully believe Ace's rage at him as they seemed to be getting along pretty well all things considered!
Overall it was a solid and entertaining story, but I'm not sure it would have held together so well if it had been any other villain, as Bonnar gives the story a shot in the arm every scene he appears in. Like others have said it all felt a bit of a traditional "end of the universe" with a lot of well-trodden ideas brought out to play again. A fun but far from essential release.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2020 10:38:51 GMT
I finished this off yesterday and it's been interesting reading everyone's thoughts on it. It's certainly a mixed bag. Mark Bonnar remains excellent and clearly relishes the role (I thought it was lovely to hear in the interviews that he likes doing extra takes whenever possible, and Sophie Aldred mentioning him being a very physical performer and leaping around in the recording booth made me grin!) I liked the concept of the Dark Universe a lot and thought it was very sinister, especially with the reveal. From the blurb I expected a much darker story going in and was surprised how whimsical a lot of parts were. The closing scene where a subdued Seventh Doctor acknowledges to the Dark Universe inhabitant that he will soon meet his end was a lovely subtle scene from Sylvester, although I didn't fully believe Ace's rage at him as they seemed to be getting along pretty well all things considered! Overall it was a solid and entertaining story, but I'm not sure it would have held together so well if it had been any other villain, as Bonnar gives the story a shot in the arm every scene he appears in. Like others have said it all felt a bit of a traditional "end of the universe" with a lot of well-trodden ideas brought out to play again. A fun but far from essential release. It can wait lol I want to save some money at moment so bought 4DA - BOX SET instead I stopped preordering as much now
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2020 10:41:59 GMT
It can wait lol I want to save some money at moment so bought 4DA - BOX SET instead I stopped preordering as much now Was very tempted by the new 4DA myself... and still am! :-) New Tom is always a good thing. Hope you enjoy.
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Post by vivdunstan on Jan 23, 2020 14:49:10 GMT
Count me as another listener who's somewhat disappointed by this release. I think I'm going to have to draw up my personal list of positives and negatives to try to make proper sense of my views. And before I can rate it in any poll. Hopefully more on that later.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Jan 23, 2020 15:19:19 GMT
This is an odd one. I was ready to chuck the whole thing after the first two episodes but instead plowed on and felt that the second half of the story picked up dramatically. Strangely the weakest thing is the Ace/7 relationship. 7 returning for a last set of adventures with an older, bitter Ace should have been a trilogy and not one serial. There is a lot of material to work with that doesn’t get explored in depth which instead gets rushed through and ends up ringing pretty false. This one is a mixed bag.
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Post by vivdunstan on Jan 23, 2020 18:01:08 GMT
Thinking more about how I feel about this audio I started making lists of pros and cons, but quickly found that they tended to pair up. Eg I’d give a pro, and then say but ... So I’m going to present them that way here. I don’t think they are significantly spoilery, so am not popping them all in spoiler tags. Hope that’s ok. First I liked the concept of an older Seventh Doctor meeting an older Ace. It also sounded great in the trailer. But that isn’t exactly what we got in the audio. There was so much potential for conflict and storytelling and resolution between the two characters. But instead so much focus was on the Eleven, and too little on the Doc and Ace. I’m not sure we needed a full trilogy for them, as some have suggested. But I wanted more. The framing structure of the Doctor telling a story was great (oh and was the baby Ace? ). Sylvester delivers these sections well. But the Doctor wasn’t in the audio enough for me. Yes I know that he was manipulating things behind the scenes, in his typical style. But I wanted more Doc! I like the Eleven and Mark Bonnar performs the role(s) superbly. But starting the story as they did here, in media res, with Eleven and Ace was potentially confusing / alienating for listeners new to the Eleven. Not all monthly Main Range subscribers have heard Doom Coalition etc. As well as wanting more 7 & Ace interaction I felt that the Dark Universe concept was underdeveloped. It was almost a blink and you miss it thing. Maybe that might have benefited from a trilogy to build it up better. And re the ending, and I’d better invoke spoiler tags again, I liked that it led into Doom Coalition and the TV Movie. But I hated how 7 and Ace parted. Yes I’m soppy and wanted a happier ending. But I also didn’t find this her reaction as presented credible. Again it was another blink and you miss it development. So overall I’m disappointed, and it didn’t live up to my hopes after hearing the trailer. To be fair it’s closer to the blurb as advertised. But it’s nowhere near what I hoped for, or I think the setup merited.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Jan 23, 2020 19:05:48 GMT
Oh and knowing that McCoy played the Fool to Ian McKellen's King Lear onstage, it was fun hearing that get a serious callback.
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Post by elkawho on Jan 24, 2020 3:17:27 GMT
I think I must have been the only person to have absolutely no expectations upon listening to this one. I mean, yeah, I knew it was older Ace and it had The Eleven, but I didn't read anything else or listen to any of the previews. I think because of that I may have enjoyed it more than most of you. I thought it was very well done and Mark Bonnar was excellent. It did have me confused a bit in the second half, but I got over that. Nice to have a pre-Time War Ollistra and the lead up to Doom Coalition.
I do wish The Doctor and Ace's relationship was more of the core of this story. That would have been fascinating. There is a ton of baggage there, but I find that Big Finish doesn't like to dig into characters' baggage very much. I mean, I'm still waiting for Eight and The Monk to resolve the end of To The Death! So I'm not all that surprised that it wasn't tackled here. But for what it did do it was well done, for the most part. An engaging adventure with interesting characters (for the most part), cliffhangers that worked (for the most part) and a scenario that made you wonder how the Doctor was going to out of THIS one. Was is the best of the Main Range? No, but I did enjoy this one a lot. Definitely worth the time and money. I plan on another listen sometime soon. I think it might be one of those that I like more with subsequent listening.
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Post by selimpensfiction on Jan 24, 2020 17:14:16 GMT
I must say I quite enjoyed this release. But did I understand it? Well, that's going to take another listen or two. At times the story seemed quite dreamlike, and brought to mind Zagreus. I'm also quite confused about Ace's timeline. I mean, at some point she ends up on Gallifrey to stay, right? Good thing there's a Doctor Who wiki out there. I'll be looking up what it has to say about Ace. And, another listen to this is a must. I must ask though, if the Doctor was so keen to stop the Eleven, then why not do so before he/they make their way to the Dark Universe gateway...?
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Jan 25, 2020 2:09:14 GMT
I must say I quite enjoyed this release. But did I understand it? Well, that's going to take another listen or two. At times the story seemed quite dreamlike, and brought to mind Zagreus. I'm also quite confused about Ace's timeline. I mean, at some point she ends up on Gallifrey to stay, right? Good thing there's a Doctor Who wiki out there. I'll be looking up what it has to say about Ace. And, another listen to this is a must. I must ask though, if the Doctor was so keen to stop the Eleven, then why not do so before he/they make their way to the Dark Universe gateway...? Dark Universe is set after her time on Gallifrey. She’s already experienced the Time War and been left on Earth by Braxiatel by this point.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2020 2:21:21 GMT
Rather than add this to the backlog, I figured since it seems to be getting quite a lot of strong reactions (being kind) that I'd let it jump the queue.
It's not the disaster I was expecting from some reviews but it's far, far too much character and event for one standard MR release. Ace and The Doctor reuniting, the 11's takeover of..well, everything, The Doctor stopping that, Ace having it out with him once and for all...no. This is a boxset here not a standalone release for me - it felt like events that should be happening over an hour were happening in minutes or even sentences. BF are often accused these days of stretching things out and making almost anything into a boxset. I think this is a rare occasion where it really needed that treatment. It's too big a story both event wise but most importantly character wise for 1h47m.
Everyone involved does their best work (still not sold on the young Ollistra as any kind of authority figure though) but McCoy gets when to play the fool (literally and figuratively) and when to go more malevolent with it. Sophie meanwhile would be the first to say she's not the most versatile but she's always been very relatably human as Ace even in 2020 and she does really sell that last "J'accuse" scene with The Doctor. Mark Bonnar, meanwhile, does most of the heavy lifting in the set and is a real treasure as The Eleven, even if this is nothing from the character we haven't seen play out in larger more explored scale with Doom Coalition and Ravenous.
So I won't call this a bad story it just feels like I've watched the World Cup Final....in highlights. I'd like to have seen the whole match, please.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Jan 25, 2020 3:05:54 GMT
Rather than add this to the backlog, I figured since it seems to be getting quite a lot of strong reactions (being kind) that I'd let it jump the queue. It's not the disaster I was expecting from some reviews but it's far, far too much character and event for one standard MR release. Ace and The Doctor reuniting, the 11's takeover of..well, everything, The Doctor stopping that, Ace having it out with him once and for all...no. This is a boxset here not a standalone release for me - it felt like events that should be happening over an hour were happening in minutes or even sentences. BF are often accused these days of stretching things out and making almost anything into a boxset. I think this is a rare occasion where it really needed that treatment. It's too big a story both event wise but most importantly character wise for 1h47m. Everyone involved does their best work (still not sold on the young Ollistra as any kind of authority figure though) but McCoy gets when to play the fool (literally and figuratively) and when to go more malevolent with it. Sophie meanwhile would be the first to say she's not the most versatile but she's always been very relatably human as Ace even in 2020 and she does really sell that last "J'accuse" scene with The Doctor. Mark Bonnar, meanwhile, does most of the heavy lifting in the set and is a real treasure as The Eleven, even if this is nothing from the character we haven't seen play out in larger more explored scale with Doom Coalition and Ravenous. So I won't call this a bad story it just feels like I've watched the World Cup Final....in highlights. I'd like to have seen the whole match, please. Didn’t we talk about exactly that a couple of days ago? Hard agree.
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Post by elkawho on Jan 25, 2020 3:36:13 GMT
Rather than add this to the backlog, I figured since it seems to be getting quite a lot of strong reactions (being kind) that I'd let it jump the queue. It's not the disaster I was expecting from some reviews but it's far, far too much character and event for one standard MR release. Ace and The Doctor reuniting, the 11's takeover of..well, everything, The Doctor stopping that, Ace having it out with him once and for all...no. This is a boxset here not a standalone release for me - it felt like events that should be happening over an hour were happening in minutes or even sentences. BF are often accused these days of stretching things out and making almost anything into a boxset. I think this is a rare occasion where it really needed that treatment. It's too big a story both event wise but most importantly character wise for 1h47m. Everyone involved does their best work (still not sold on the young Ollistra as any kind of authority figure though) but McCoy gets when to play the fool (literally and figuratively) and when to go more malevolent with it. Sophie meanwhile would be the first to say she's not the most versatile but she's always been very relatably human as Ace even in 2020 and she does really sell that last "J'accuse" scene with The Doctor. Mark Bonnar, meanwhile, does most of the heavy lifting in the set and is a real treasure as The Eleven, even if this is nothing from the character we haven't seen play out in larger more explored scale with Doom Coalition and Ravenous. So I won't call this a bad story it just feels like I've watched the World Cup Final....in highlights. I'd like to have seen the whole match, please. Excellent review here. I think you've hit the nail on the head.
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ljwilson
Chancellery Guard
It's tangerine....not orange
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Post by ljwilson on Jan 25, 2020 8:04:39 GMT
Rather than add this to the backlog, I figured since it seems to be getting quite a lot of strong reactions (being kind) that I'd let it jump the queue. It's not the disaster I was expecting from some reviews but it's far, far too much character and event for one standard MR release. Ace and The Doctor reuniting, the 11's takeover of..well, everything, The Doctor stopping that, Ace having it out with him once and for all...no. This is a boxset here not a standalone release for me - it felt like events that should be happening over an hour were happening in minutes or even sentences. BF are often accused these days of stretching things out and making almost anything into a boxset. I think this is a rare occasion where it really needed that treatment. It's too big a story both event wise but most importantly character wise for 1h47m. Everyone involved does their best work (still not sold on the young Ollistra as any kind of authority figure though) but McCoy gets when to play the fool (literally and figuratively) and when to go more malevolent with it. Sophie meanwhile would be the first to say she's not the most versatile but she's always been very relatably human as Ace even in 2020 and she does really sell that last "J'accuse" scene with The Doctor. Mark Bonnar, meanwhile, does most of the heavy lifting in the set and is a real treasure as The Eleven, even if this is nothing from the character we haven't seen play out in larger more explored scale with Doom Coalition and Ravenous. So I won't call this a bad story it just feels like I've watched the World Cup Final....in highlights. I'd like to have seen the whole match, please. Unless it was the 1994 World Cup Final of course.
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Post by number13 on Jan 25, 2020 12:53:20 GMT
The quick review: I did enjoy 'Dark Universe', very much! Very nearly 5* from me, another in this excellent run of MR stories.
Now, if you've got a few minutes to spare... It really was 'crossover central' wasn't it? Or a nexus point, as I think the Doctor might say. Links to Gallifrey, Doom Coalition (a treat I have in store but I did realise this was the prequel), the Time War, the War Master, other MR stories and even the First Doctor CCs with the mention of the Player! (Guy Adams got in mentions of at least four of his other stories and why not indeed?! ) It probably helped enjoy this that I had heard most of those other stories and it certainly helped that I was familiar with the Eleven from 'Ravenous' because this is his story in many ways, with the Doctor standing in the wings - until the time is right... Fabulous performance from Mark Bonnar again, I'm in awe of his vocal creation of 11 in 1 and although the dialogue helpfully named most of the other incarnations as they spoke, really after 'Ravenous' I knew who was who because all his numerical horrors (and nice Eight) are so distinct. Sylvester McCoy was also superb, one of his best imo - and hearing him playing the Fool, literally, was as mentioned above a lovely nod to his famous performance in 'King Lear', with many Shakespearean references and quotes. It is a small cast and for much of the time just a few of them in each scene, but I thought that worked really well. Yes, it's a vast, universe-destroying story but it's told through the interplay between the few characters who hold the key to events - between Doctor/Ace, Doctor/Eleven and between the two Time Lords and the ghostly, chilling Citizen of the Dark Universe. The first half drew me in completely, the Doctor and Ace seen in London in flashback (I'm sure we all guessed they were in it together long before the 'reveal', but that wasn't really a secret was it - we know them), the storytelling Doctor and the 'Indiana Jones' journey of Ace and the Eleven deep into the rainforest and the other world beneath the Tree. I thought it all built very well to reaching the Gate - and he had to open it didn't he? (Or what would be the point of the story? ) And what would become of the Doctor's plan?
And then the huge jump to eps 3/4 and this is where I can see what several other posters have been mentioning - the scale of the story being crammed into a four-parter. The two CDs were separated by such a gap of time, setting, style and situation that it felt almost as if I'd heard the first and last episodes of a box set (or even a range) but missed out all the middle! However, once I got my head round the 'leap' I enjoyed the second half just as much as the first - gone was the 'Indiana Jones' style quest and in its place the finale of an epic of Time Lords and universal destruction!
I'll jump ahead too, to to the very end and that terrific scene between Ace and the Doctor (Sophie Aldred really made that an electrifying encounter) and the sheer scale of what the Doctor just did. Yes, it was partly about stopping the Eleven and yes the very end does presage The Movie but look what the Doctor did! He knowingly 'played' Ace and the Eleven to open the Gate and was willing to risk (and actually lose) swathes of the universe and countless lives to the darkness, just to get the Dark Universe on his side.
How? A 'deal with the devil' of some sort and although the Seventh incarnation will be over soon after this story, the Doctor will go on and so will that deal - whatever it was... 'We will hold you to your word... we will remember...' What did the Doctor offer to get the Dark Citizens to stay on their side of the Gate, why was it so important to have them on his side that he would allow untold billions of deaths (because that's what he presumably did in effect if whole galaxies were lost) - and when and from which incarnation will they require 'payment'? Do I detect an Eighth Doctor story waiting to happen...?
I enjoyed 'Dark Universe' very much, the ambitious scale and epic sweep for a four-parter, the really excellent performances and the swirl of cross-overs and tie-ins and the promise of something yet to come. For me, it worked and worked well.
EDIT: Much too long a post really but I too had a lot to fit into the space available...
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Post by slithe on Jan 26, 2020 10:40:02 GMT
I came to this 'cold' - not having listened to any of the linking/related material, I was unaware of any of the history/wider narratives raised by the story. Hence, it might explain some of the gaps.
I didn't think this was a bad release. It certainly felt like one of the more interesting McCoy releases for a while and followed a style/approach that I think works best for this incarnation. I also thought that the decision to pitch this towards the end of the Doctor's 7th incarnation was a good one. It adds to the weight of the Doctor perhaps being 'too scheming and devious' with the listener knowing that soon his 'luck' will eventually run out. Certainly, the end is quite effective - the 'deal' that the Doctor has made is yet to be resolved and that the Doctor is quite arrogant at the warning of his 'death' possibly shows how unDoctor like this incarnation has become. The anger of Ace is good and you can feel the rage of all the years of being manipulated and treated poorly coming out in the end.
This probably needed to be longer - there is too much to unpack here for 4 episodes. This could have come at the end of a trilogy or been a series of two stories. I do think this reflected the limitations of the MR and perhaps BF being a little bit too ambitious was this. The hype about the story probably didn't help, leading again to the inevitable disappointment that has been expressed here.
Ending was a bit poor - another deus ex machina to resolve it. That needed to be re-thought and was a weak conclusion to a good story.
The extended theme opening is nice and the title music does sound a little bit more jazzy than previously?
Not a bad opener to 2020. Definitely better than Devil in the Mist and a solid McCoy story.
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