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Post by elkawho on Dec 1, 2015 18:21:15 GMT
I've been thinking a lot about how the writers of Doctor Who can sometimes take enormous risks with their stories. Early on in the Main Range we used to get a fair amount of experimental stories. Some are seen as great ( Chimes of Midnight, Jubilee, Creatures of Beauty, The Natural History Of Fear) and others received more mixed reviews (Live 34, Flip Flop), but I always appreciated the effort. After the New Series started, there seemed to be a stop to the experimental stuff in favor of more reliable stories. Now, no one can say that Heaven Sent was a typical DW episode, and I'm hoping that with Cardiff willing to take these risks we may see BF allowed to resume their riskier story-telling as well.
What do you all think?
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Post by jasonward on Dec 1, 2015 18:29:40 GMT
Could it be that the difference between now and then is not so much the TV show, but Gary Russell and Nick Briggs? It would be a surprise if you could not tell at least some differences between their era's.
For me, Gary's era was far more hit and miss, the stories I like the most and the stories I dislike the most are basically all from his era, Nick era has hardly put a foot wrong, but on the days when I'm looking for something to listen again to, it's nearly always from Gary's era.
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Post by ollychops on Dec 1, 2015 18:59:10 GMT
The experimental stories are part of the reason why I love the early BF stories, because even if the stories weren't executed as well as they could've been, they still had interesting premises. The MR is still good, but I feel like a lot of the stories are just run-of-the-mill Doctor Who, and there's not much about them that really stands out.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Dec 1, 2015 19:09:51 GMT
Well, since the impact of the New Series BF has been far more scrutinised than it was in the Wilderness era, so everything goes through the Cardiff office rather than the general licence office of the BBC, and we don't know how many "Russell Era" type scripts get sent in and rejected, and eventually if this happens enough self censorship occurs where it doesn't even get to the Beeb.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2015 3:48:22 GMT
Oh, that's a particularly rubbish consequence I hadn't even considered. I've always thought that Nick Briggs's run as producer has heralded what someone called a "meat and potatoes" approach wherein you get lots of very sound, very appeasable stories that rarely if ever push the boundary beyond what can be considered safely comfortable. Now this is not necessarily a bad thing, formulas exist for a reason after all and two of the authors that I occasionally keep an eye out for are Steve Cole and Justin Richards because both rarely if ever stumble with telling a solid story. The problem is that it never challenges the listener or their expectations, so I would be all for an occassional return to more experimental stories in between stories like The Rani Elite or Return of the Krotons.
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Post by elkawho on Dec 2, 2015 4:05:44 GMT
Oh, I'm not begrudging Nick Briggs. I think there have been some terrific stories under his reign, many he has written himself. But I really do miss those stories that were different and surprising, whatever the reason.
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Post by omega on Dec 2, 2015 4:10:05 GMT
Yeah, the Main Range doesn't experiment as much anymore. It felt like there was more bolder approached in other ranges, like the Eighth Doctor and Lucie stories and the Companion Chronicles. Those Eighth Doctor stories trialed the 45 minute/1 hour length stories in full cast, while the Companion Chronicles in general allowed Big Finish to write new stories with Doctors and companions who weren't available (either due to being deceased or simply not wanting to work with BF at the time). Even within the CC's there was experimentation. Home Truths took a person whose status of companion was ambiguous, confirming Sara Kingdom as a companion in her own right. The Company arc put Zoe in a harsh and bleak situation. The Scorchies was Doctor Who meets The Muppets. Nigel Fairs tried to be clever with Leela's future, ending up being too clever for his own good. Simon Guerrier gave the First Doctor and Steven a new companion. Marc Platt wrote what is probably the closest thing we have to a definitive departure from Gallifrey for the the First Doctor and Susan.
It's not just those two ranges. The Lost Stories adapted some of the more infamous unmade scripts, Mission to Magnus and Prison in Space (the latter with spanking scene fully intact). Even the less controversial would have been a gamble, simply due to the fact many scripts and story ideas were discarded before making it to TV. The whole range of the Lost Stories was at heart experimental.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2015 6:43:18 GMT
As in the above post I think the main difference is that there are so many other ranges now. There is a real danger that the main range loses its appeal because all the risk taking is happening elsewhere so it seems dull by comparison.
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Post by omega on Dec 2, 2015 6:47:01 GMT
As in the above post I think the main difference is that there are so many other ranges now. There is a real danger that the main range loses its appeal because all the risk taking is happening elsewhere so it seems dull by comparison. So the Main Range is the meat and potatoes stories, dependably reliable while the risks are taken with the other ranges because there's more option? |
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Post by david on Dec 2, 2015 10:40:49 GMT
JHE has noted that the kind of things they'd get away with pre-Nu-Who wouldn't be possible now. I wonder if this is still the case because the show on tv is tonally more mature and experimental now than it was, say, in the RTD era. Perhaps BF are still playing by rules they don't have to?
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Post by elkawho on Dec 2, 2015 12:48:39 GMT
JHE has noted that the kind of things they'd get away with pre-Nu-Who wouldn't be possible now. I wonder if this is still the case because the show on tv is tonally more mature and experimental now than it was, say, in the RTD era. Perhaps BF are still playing by rules they don't have to? That's basically what I've been thinking since Sat, and a much more succinct way to say it than my original post.  |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2015 13:05:33 GMT
JHE has noted that the kind of things they'd get away with pre-Nu-Who wouldn't be possible now. I wonder if this is still the case because the show on tv is tonally more mature and experimental now than it was, say, in the RTD era. Perhaps BF are still playing by rules they don't have to? Excellently put, but a second option presents itself as well. Given the more experimental nature of recent NuWho stories, perhaps the current production team behind Big Finish feel obligated (or perhaps duty-bound) to carry the torch of what quintessential Doctor Who is as a constant reminder of the show's core aspects? |
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Dec 2, 2015 15:46:59 GMT
JHE has noted that the kind of things they'd get away with pre-Nu-Who wouldn't be possible now. I wonder if this is still the case because the show on tv is tonally more mature and experimental now than it was, say, in the RTD era. Perhaps BF are still playing by rules they don't have to? That was kind of my self censoring point. |
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Post by kastoniago on Dec 3, 2015 0:15:34 GMT
Although I accept that Heaven Sent was a more experimental story then those that have been on TV Who for while, I think most of the stories on TV are far more formulaic or 'meat and potatoes' than Big Finish do with the Main Range. In fact, the TV stories I think are rather repetitive, with very similar stories being used on a regular basis, while the Main Range does have a wider diversity of stories for the most part.
I do agree that the most experimental time for Big Finish was during Gary Russell's era, and most of my favourite Big Finish stories (or most regarded as classic Big Finish audios) are during this period, and I do think the stories were more ambitious and helped break the usual Doctor Who format. But I do think that the main differences between these era's stories are a combination of the BBC's input into the storylines, and how both writers approach running Doctor Who at Big Finish. As has been discussed, the BBC has taken more of an interest in the actual stories produced by Big Finish, as Doctor Who has become a precious commodity to them since the show has come back.
I think that Gary Russell was keen to get as many different types of Doctor Who stories produced as possible, employing as many different writers as possible, so that we can purchase a more diverse range of stories. That is probably because Big Finish was a developing company back in the first few year, and the original format of releasing audios in a random order was much better for Gary's approach to make as many different stories as possible. Whereas Nick Briggs has said that his approach to running Doctor Who for Big Finish was more akin to RTD's approach to running the TV Series, with him overseeing the ongoing storylines and writing the big, event stories in the ongoing arcs. At the same time, having a core group of writers contributing stories on a regular basis (Jonathan Morris, John Dorney, Matt Fitton, etc). This is probably why the trilogy format was started by Briggs, to have a more focused way of realising the various storylines by having them released in batches. This was also likely used by Briggs as Big Finish had become a well-established company by the time he took over, so it probably needed to become a more focused production for it to continue releasing and expanding on their output further than those early years.
It has proven successful, with Big Finish's popularity and physical output increasing three-fold since his taking over. Something I'm not sure Gary Russell would have been able to achieve if he continued producing using the methods he employed during those initial couple of years. So Gary's methods naturally lent itself to a more experimental form of telling stories, while Briggs' requires a more formulaic format in order for it to accommodate the expansion of Big Finish and its Doctor Who output altogether. |
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Post by kimalysong on Dec 3, 2015 0:23:18 GMT
Went to a panel where Gary Russel talked about the early years of Big Finish and he himself said he liked to experiment. Not just with story format but with trying out new authors. He said himself sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn't.
I think the main range was definitely stronger under Gary's run. Nick seems to have put his efforts elsewhere such as the many wonderful boxsets.
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Post by constonks on Dec 3, 2015 16:10:50 GMT
The problem with experimentation disappearing from the MR (which I don't think it has completely, mind you) is that there's no better place for it to happen now that the CCs are gone. The MR is the only remaining Doctor Who range that can support a cool one-off story these days.
I can't imagine Scherzo as a one-hour story, kicking off a "The Divergence 1" boxset. Although I guess Jago and Litefoot manage some experimental stories in their four-at-a-time release pattern so I don't know.
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Post by elkawho on Dec 3, 2015 18:03:51 GMT
The problem with experimentation disappearing from the MR (which I don't think it has completely, mind you) is that there's no better place for it to happen now that the CCs are gone. The MR is the only remaining Doctor Who range that can support a cool one-off story these days. I can't imagine Scherzo as a one-hour story, kicking off a "The Divergence 1" boxset. Although I guess Jago and Litefoot manage some experimental stories in their four-at-a-time release pattern so I don't know. I completely agree with you. |
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Post by seeley on Dec 3, 2015 21:54:44 GMT
The problem with experimentation disappearing from the MR (which I don't think it has completely, mind you) is that there's no better place for it to happen now that the CCs are gone. The MR is the only remaining Doctor Who range that can support a cool one-off story these days. I can't imagine Scherzo as a one-hour story, kicking off a "The Divergence 1" boxset. Although I guess Jago and Litefoot manage some experimental stories in their four-at-a-time release pattern so I don't know. Of course, J&L don't have to worry about customers' preconceptions. No one is going to listen to Theatre of Dreams and say "That's not the Jago and Litefoot I remember!" |
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Post by randomjc on Dec 3, 2015 21:58:55 GMT
The problem with experimentation disappearing from the MR (which I don't think it has completely, mind you) is that there's no better place for it to happen now that the CCs are gone. The MR is the only remaining Doctor Who range that can support a cool one-off story these days. I can't imagine Scherzo as a one-hour story, kicking off a "The Divergence 1" boxset. Although I guess Jago and Litefoot manage some experimental stories in their four-at-a-time release pattern so I don't know. Of course, J&L don't have to worry about customers' preconceptions. No one is going to listen to Theatre of Dreams and say "That's not the Jago and Litefoot I remember!" That shows an amazing faith in people not to complain about things. |
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Post by seeley on Dec 3, 2015 22:15:01 GMT
Of course, J&L don't have to worry about customers' preconceptions. No one is going to listen to Theatre of Dreams and say "That's not the Jago and Litefoot I remember!" That shows an amazing faith in people not to complain about things. I didn't say that no one is going to complain, simply that nostalgia isn't going to cloud anyone's judgement. That is to say, if you're stuck in Crook Marsham on Christmas Eve, 1968, you're more likely to see the 4th Doctor, before you die, than Ellie the barmaid. |
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