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Post by fingersmash on Oct 4, 2016 18:05:09 GMT
Both of which were not launched by the Doctor but the companion. I'm fine with the companion being in love with the Doctor as long as it is only the companion in love. See Charley. What about the dialogue in Deep Breath Doctor: Clara I'm not your boyfriend Clara: I never thought you were Doctor: It's not your mistake I'm talking about. Or words to that effect. Clear implication that 11 thought of Clara as his girlfriend. Well I'm pinned against a wall here but until then, it was really up to interpretation. And that was the thing. When romance takes precedence over fun and adventure, it's not Doctor Who. It's yet another sci-fi show in a pop culture full of them. When the magic of the universe is cockblocked by romance, I tune out and leave. And there are exceptions. I'm fine with River because it feels far more like a very deep and fond friendship, like if the Master hadn't gone bad. Amy and Rory was a beautiful if uneven love story where the romance didn't block the magic but was a natural part of it. Two people being taken by their best friend on the honeymoon of a lifetime. But when you shove the Doctor into an obvious love story, it's practically impossible to make that a realistically healthy and worthwhile relationship and it just makes me tune out.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2016 18:42:24 GMT
What about the dialogue in Deep Breath Doctor: Clara I'm not your boyfriend Clara: I never thought you were Doctor: It's not your mistake I'm talking about. Or words to that effect. Clear implication that 11 thought of Clara as his girlfriend. Well I'm pinned against a wall here but until then, it was really up to interpretation. And that was the thing. When romance takes precedence over fun and adventure, it's not Doctor Who. It's yet another sci-fi show in a pop culture full of them. When the magic of the universe is cockblocked by romance, I tune out and leave. And there are exceptions. I'm fine with River because it feels far more like a very deep and fond friendship, like if the Master hadn't gone bad. Amy and Rory was a beautiful if uneven love story where the romance didn't block the magic but was a natural part of it. Two people being taken by their best friend on the honeymoon of a lifetime. But when you shove the Doctor into an obvious love story, it's practically impossible to make that a realistically healthy and worthwhile relationship and it just makes me tune out. Oh I agree. I just wanted to show that while with Amy the romance was companion initiated, with Clara the Doctor got involved, like with Rose. The Amy situation doesn't bother me; the other two do.
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Post by mrperson on Oct 4, 2016 19:20:27 GMT
Which discussion brings up something I would change: none of this romance crap in Who.
The concept of "love" between a human and someone 100 times (or more) their age, which someone also happens to be incomparably more intelligent than any human, is just weird. Plus, it's distracting and takes up valuable story-telling time.
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Post by fingersmash on Oct 4, 2016 19:28:52 GMT
Well I'm pinned against a wall here but until then, it was really up to interpretation. And that was the thing. When romance takes precedence over fun and adventure, it's not Doctor Who. It's yet another sci-fi show in a pop culture full of them. When the magic of the universe is cockblocked by romance, I tune out and leave. And there are exceptions. I'm fine with River because it feels far more like a very deep and fond friendship, like if the Master hadn't gone bad. Amy and Rory was a beautiful if uneven love story where the romance didn't block the magic but was a natural part of it. Two people being taken by their best friend on the honeymoon of a lifetime. But when you shove the Doctor into an obvious love story, it's practically impossible to make that a realistically healthy and worthwhile relationship and it just makes me tune out. Oh I agree. I just wanted to show that while with Amy the romance was companion initiated, with Clara the Doctor got involved, like with Rose. The Amy situation doesn't bother me; the other two do. I'm honestly not bothered by Clara because while I'm against this whole Whofle/Whofaldi nonsense it's not distracting from the magic of the Whoniverse and it's easily ignored, while RTD's era had nary an episode go by without ROES and twu wuv. In fact, thinking about it Moffat's Who is the better Who because it puts romance and soap elements on the back burner and tries (and some would say fails) to tell a good story. Doctor Who is fundamentally about the fact that magic lives in the universe and that it should be explored and I don't think RTD ever understood that with a good majority of his episodes taking place on Earth/in the orbit of Earth/New Earth and depicting the Doctor as almost human. I don't know I just think the era is the most overrated era of Doctor Who and that it was so stuck in trying to be a modern show that it forgets just how boundless the format of Doctor Who is.
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Post by mark687 on Oct 4, 2016 19:34:39 GMT
The Doctor shouldn't've been a third wheel in a marriage and no dropping back home / picking up of the same companions.
Regards
mark687
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Post by fingersmash on Oct 4, 2016 20:31:38 GMT
Both of which were not launched by the Doctor but the companion. I'm fine with the companion being in love with the Doctor as long as it is only the companion in love. See Charley. Errrm... not sure what you heard mate, but... Scherzo, where Charley very clearly says 'I love you' and the Doctor tells her that it is an impossible arrangement.
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Oct 4, 2016 22:38:45 GMT
quote author=" fingersmash" source="/post/54235/thread" timestamp="1475609332"] Oh I agree. I just wanted to show that while with Amy the romance was companion initiated, with Clara the Doctor got involved, like with Rose. The Amy situation doesn't bother me; the other two do. I'm honestly not bothered by Clara because while I'm against this whole Whofle/Whofaldi nonsense it's not distracting from the magic of the Whoniverse and it's easily ignored, while RTD's era had nary an episode go by without ROES and twu wuv. In fact, thinking about it Moffat's Who is the better Who because it puts romance and soap elements on the back burner and tries (and some would say fails) to tell a good story. Doctor Who is fundamentally about the fact that magic lives in the universe and that it should be explored and I don't think RTD ever understood that with a good majority of his episodes taking place on Earth/in the orbit of Earth/New Earth and depicting the Doctor as almost human. I don't know I just think the era is the most overrated era of Doctor Who and that it was so stuck in trying to be a modern show that it forgets just how boundless the format of Doctor Who is. [/quote] Okay, lets have a look at what you have written - "Moffat puts romance and soap elements on the back burner" If you look at EastEnders (a soap), it involves work, romance and family. All those have appeared in Moffats DW. What about Clara and Danny? Claras work as a School teacher? Christmas dinner with the family? Most definitely not "on the back burner". You can't get more soapy than Moffats DW! Its also worth noting that 8 episodes from series 9 took place on Earth, and 2 others had scenes set on Earth.
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Post by fingersmash on Oct 5, 2016 0:49:26 GMT
Scherzo, where Charley very clearly says 'I love you' and the Doctor tells her that it is an impossible arrangement. Ah, I see what you're on about. So you're fine with romance, even if the Doctor is (for lack of a better phrase) "in love", as long as he doesn't act on it, and indeed, says that he can't? Basically. The Doctor should firmly be in the area of 'I can't fall in love because that doesn't work with how I live and if I do fall in love it only creates problems for both of us.'
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Post by fingersmash on Oct 5, 2016 0:59:57 GMT
quote author=" fingersmash " source="/post/54235/thread" timestamp="1475609332"] Oh I agree. I just wanted to show that while with Amy the romance was companion initiated, with Clara the Doctor got involved, like with Rose. The Amy situation doesn't bother me; the other two do. I'm honestly not bothered by Clara because while I'm against this whole Whofle/Whofaldi nonsense it's not distracting from the magic of the Whoniverse and it's easily ignored, while RTD's era had nary an episode go by without ROES and twu wuv. In fact, thinking about it Moffat's Who is the better Who because it puts romance and soap elements on the back burner and tries (and some would say fails) to tell a good story. Doctor Who is fundamentally about the fact that magic lives in the universe and that it should be explored and I don't think RTD ever understood that with a good majority of his episodes taking place on Earth/in the orbit of Earth/New Earth and depicting the Doctor as almost human. I don't know I just think the era is the most overrated era of Doctor Who and that it was so stuck in trying to be a modern show that it forgets just how boundless the format of Doctor Who is. Okay, lets have a look at what you have written - "Moffat puts romance and soap elements on the back burner" If you look at EastEnders (a soap), it involves work, romance and family. All those have appeared in Moffats DW. What about Clara and Danny? Claras work as a School teacher? Christmas dinner with the family? Most definitely not "on the back burner". You can't get more soapy than Moffats DW! Its also worth noting that 8 episodes from series 9 took place on Earth, and 2 others had scenes set on Earth.[/quote] Fair. But all of that provided character development. I think Clara's character development was really fascinating because it was primarily negative development. She didn't end up a better person with the Doctor, she ended up worse and I think that it was fascinating to see that unfold because we finally got to see a long-overdue possible consequence of traveling with the Doctor. It makes for a very sobering experience while still keeping the fantasy of the show.
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Post by elkawho on Oct 5, 2016 2:35:16 GMT
I never thought about it like that. I really hated Clara by the end, but I see what you mean. Interesting.
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Oct 5, 2016 9:42:57 GMT
I never thought about it like that. I really hated Clara by the end, but I see what you mean. Interesting. Not sure if I'd call it character development. More like badly written. Moffat and co, not knowing were the Clara character was going. Proved by the fact that it was up to the actress whether to stay after series 8, or not. With Jenna deciding to stay for Last Christmas made it more difficult for Moffat, for the character to work - he made it up as he went along.
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Oct 5, 2016 11:42:34 GMT
I never thought about it like that. I really hated Clara by the end, but I see what you mean. Interesting. Not sure if I'd call it character development. More like badly written. Moffat and co, not knowing were the Clara character was going. Proved by the fact that it was up to the actress whether to stay after series 8, or not. With Jenna deciding to stay for Last Christmas made it more difficult for Moffat, for the character to work - he made it up as he went along. She didnt decide to stay, she was talked into it both times by Moffatt and Capaldi. He just had to change what he wrote when she finally gave in
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Oct 5, 2016 12:02:14 GMT
Not sure if I'd call it character development. More like badly written. Moffat and co, not knowing were the Clara character was going. Proved by the fact that it was up to the actress whether to stay after series 8, or not. With Jenna deciding to stay for Last Christmas made it more difficult for Moffat, for the character to work - he made it up as he went along. She didnt decide to stay, she was talked into it both times by Moffatt and Capaldi. He just had to change what he wrote when she finally gave in As I said above - she decided to stay!
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Post by elkawho on Oct 5, 2016 14:34:09 GMT
I never thought about it like that. I really hated Clara by the end, but I see what you mean. Interesting. Not sure if I'd call it character development. More like badly written. Moffat and co, not knowing were the Clara character was going. Proved by the fact that it was up to the actress whether to stay after series 8, or not. With Jenna deciding to stay for Last Christmas made it more difficult for Moffat, for the character to work - he made it up as he went along. For once I completely agree with you Paul. It did feel as if he made it up as he went along. The thing is, I loved Jenna Coleman at first, as both Oswin and Victorian Clara. I'm not sure where she started to lose me, but I was completely over her by the third episode of season 8.
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Oct 5, 2016 15:04:03 GMT
Not sure if I'd call it character development. More like badly written. Moffat and co, not knowing were the Clara character was going. Proved by the fact that it was up to the actress whether to stay after series 8, or not. With Jenna deciding to stay for Last Christmas made it more difficult for Moffat, for the character to work - he made it up as he went along. For once I completely agree with you Paul. It did feel as if he made it up as he went along. The thing is, I loved Jenna Coleman at first, as both Oswin and Victorian Clara. I'm not sure where she started to lose me, but I was completely over her by the third episode of season 8. Its also worth noting that there is no boyfriend or family in series 9. And, only one(?)school scene - could have been written for anyone
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Post by fingersmash on Oct 5, 2016 15:11:26 GMT
For once I completely agree with you Paul. It did feel as if he made it up as he went along. The thing is, I loved Jenna Coleman at first, as both Oswin and Victorian Clara. I'm not sure where she started to lose me, but I was completely over her by the third episode of season 8. Its also worth noting that there is no boyfriend or family in series 9. And, only one(?)school scene - could have been written for anyone And is it any wonder that series 9 is the best the show has been in a very long time?
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Oct 5, 2016 15:27:53 GMT
Its also worth noting that there is no boyfriend or family in series 9. And, only one(?)school scene - could have been written for anyone And is it any wonder that series 9 is the best the show has been in a very long time? Wouldn't go that far. Plenty stinkers in series 9.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2016 15:49:47 GMT
Its also worth noting that there is no boyfriend or family in series 9. And, only one(?)school scene - could have been written for anyone And is it any wonder that series 9 is the best the show has been in a very long time? In your opinion. It's my least favourite.
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Post by mrperson on Oct 5, 2016 16:09:22 GMT
Errrm... not sure what you heard mate, but... Scherzo, where Charley very clearly says 'I love you' and the Doctor tells her that it is an impossible arrangement. Either in that episode or in Zagreus, preceding it (and at the end of the ep), doesn't he very clearly state that he means loves her as a friend?
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Post by newt5996 on Oct 5, 2016 16:12:00 GMT
I'd implement a script editor with the power to change what a head writer wrote. I would get a better working relationship between Big Finish and the show so we can get a guest appearance from Benny Summerfield and get another Marc Platt penned story. I'd keep Michelle Gomez as the Master BUT I would write her more like the Master. I'd redesign the Cybermen and I'd get Stuart Hardy to write a dark story.
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