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Post by Max The Autist on Jan 6, 2022 0:12:37 GMT
Now that we know who the 2 rating was, who rated I, Kamelion 1/5? Really interested to know why?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2022 2:51:15 GMT
I know it's a terribly cynical thought, but I've been wondering since yesterday whether the inclusion of the mini-audiobooks as an unexpected free extra....is saying something about how well (or rather, not) the DW audiobooks may be selling. But big finish gave us free short trips with the main range so why were people not making “this is probably because the main range isn’t selling” comments there? Sorry if that sounds a tad harsh but it really seems odd to me that people are complaining about getting free stories, it just seems people are still crying about not still having the main range Well, that was when the company was built on a longer subscription model (years in advance, without even knowing what Doctor would be involved). And the Subscriber Bonus Short Trips were part of their then-motto "Subscribers Get More". So the SSTs were taken, with the free CD each year, the scripts and extended extras as just bein the promised "More", there was no need to think it was sales related, other than to make people commit years ahead, cash up front.
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Post by Max The Autist on Jan 6, 2022 3:18:39 GMT
But big finish gave us free short trips with the main range so why were people not making “this is probably because the main range isn’t selling” comments there? Sorry if that sounds a tad harsh but it really seems odd to me that people are complaining about getting free stories, it just seems people are still crying about not still having the main range Well, that was when the company was built on a longer subscription model (years in advance, without even knowing what Doctor would be involved). And the Subscriber Bonus Short Trips were part of their then-motto "Subscribers Get More". So the SSTs were taken, with the free CD each year, the scripts and extended extras as just bein the promised "More", there was no need to think it was sales related, other than to make people commit years ahead, cash up front. But why does that change things really? The point surely still stands that there's no reason to take getting more stories as a bad thing, right? /gen Honestly I don't think I've ever seen a fandom more rabid for its own destruction than this one...
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Post by Max The Autist on Jan 6, 2022 4:45:23 GMT
BTW anyone know the difference between the MP3 and the Audiobook versions of I, Kamelion?
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Post by shallacatop on Jan 6, 2022 8:05:26 GMT
I don't think anyone here is wondering that, there have been idents on Big Finish releases for quite some time now. We're moaning about the new ident and its lousy tagline lol "I’ve always thought the ident was a bit overkill to begin with, especially when it’s on every story in a box set, but the new one is poor. It stands out like a sore thumb, has some weird musical build up and doesn’t even make sense. I really don’t get the logic behind it." - Shallacatop And yeah, new ident is shit. I never questioned why there was an ident. Just that it was overkill to have one, especially when it’s at the front of every story within one set, and that the new one they’ve released doesn’t make sense. I understand why they have it.
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Post by shallacatop on Jan 6, 2022 8:07:24 GMT
Wasn't me either, fwiw. I haven't voted. Nope, because it was me! 😊 And I was the other one for reasons I explained in my post. 2/5 is the lowest I’d give any Doctor Who story I’ve consumed, I think, and they’re typically for stories that I find boring. Doctor Who should never, ever be boring.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Jan 6, 2022 13:50:58 GMT
Well, that was when the company was built on a longer subscription model (years in advance, without even knowing what Doctor would be involved). And the Subscriber Bonus Short Trips were part of their then-motto "Subscribers Get More". So the SSTs were taken, with the free CD each year, the scripts and extended extras as just bein the promised "More", there was no need to think it was sales related, other than to make people commit years ahead, cash up front. But why does that change things really? The point surely still stands that there's no reason to take getting more stories as a bad thing, right? /gen Honestly I don't think I've ever seen a fandom more rabid for its own destruction than this one... Bonus content is always appreciated. How one reacts on a subjective level to said bonus content is a separate issue, and one that I don’t feel like people should be forced to defend or justify if they don’t want to. If they want to rate something a 1, that is up to them. BF produces a a lot of content and all of it isn’t gong to work for everyone. It is why I made my comment up thread about just not liking it. There is stuff that we just aren’t going to like. That is normal. That isn’t being rabid for self destruction, that is being critical. And there is nothing wrong with being critical.
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Post by Max The Autist on Jan 6, 2022 14:56:37 GMT
But why does that change things really? The point surely still stands that there's no reason to take getting more stories as a bad thing, right? /gen Honestly I don't think I've ever seen a fandom more rabid for its own destruction than this one... Bonus content is always appreciated. How one reacts on a subjective level to said bonus content is a separate issue, and one that I don’t feel like people should be forced to defend or justify if they don’t want to. If they want to rate something a 1, that is up to them. BF produces a a lot of content and all of it isn’t gong to work for everyone. It is why I made my comment up thread about just not liking it. There is stuff that we just aren’t going to like. That is normal. That isn’t being rabid for self destruction, that is being critical. And there is nothing wrong with being critical. I wasn't upset over the 1/5 rating, although I would like to know why someone thought it was a 1/5, what I was asking was why some people seem to view this bonus content as a negative. The final statement I made was just a general one that I was going to have to make at some point and felt fitting here since I had just earlier seen someone seemingly say that bonus content was a sign of BF's audiobooks being in trouble. And this fandom is rabidly self-destructive in general, there is no fandom more willing to drop and defecate on what it supposedly loves than this one, I'm not talking criticize, I'm talking just flat-out tear apart and throw out the window for no darn reason.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Jan 6, 2022 15:18:03 GMT
Bonus content is always appreciated. How one reacts on a subjective level to said bonus content is a separate issue, and one that I don’t feel like people should be forced to defend or justify if they don’t want to. If they want to rate something a 1, that is up to them. BF produces a a lot of content and all of it isn’t gong to work for everyone. It is why I made my comment up thread about just not liking it. There is stuff that we just aren’t going to like. That is normal. That isn’t being rabid for self destruction, that is being critical. And there is nothing wrong with being critical. I wasn't upset over the 1/5 rating, although I would like to know why someone thought it was a 1/5, what I was asking was why some people seem to view this bonus content as a negative. The final statement I made was just a general one that I was going to have to make at some point and felt fitting here since I had just earlier seen someone seemingly say that bonus content was a sign of BF's audiobooks being in trouble. And this fandom is rabidly self-destructive in general, there is no fandom more willing to drop and defecate on what it supposedly loves than this one, I'm not talking criticize, I'm talking just flat-out tear apart and throw out the window for no darn reason. Less a negative and more of people who have a long history with BF remembering what we used to get. We used to get a full length full cast audio every Christmas, loads of Short Trips and scripts & extras. That has been whittled away over the years. So yeah, bonus or free is something we didn’t have before but when taken in context to what came before, it is a legitimate point to make. And I would say Doctor Who fandom is no different than any other group passionate about what they like. I would also not use the word self-destructive. I would say entitled. Who fans are no different from Trek or Star Wars fans.
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Post by Chakoteya on Jan 6, 2022 15:56:23 GMT
Halfway through Telos and thoroughly enjoying it so far. The Cybermen voices are about right and I do appreciate a writer who is willing to do a follow-on to a classic story. Haven't listened to Kamelion but as it is Kamelion, I'll probably be going into it expecting not to like it, because I hated the 'character'.
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Post by IndieMacUser on Jan 6, 2022 18:52:02 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2022 23:53:15 GMT
I know it's a terribly cynical thought, but I've been wondering since yesterday whether the inclusion of the mini-audiobooks as an unexpected free extra....is saying something about how well (or rather, not) the DW audiobooks may be selling. That's too deep for me, I'll just take a free story simply because it's free. (Thanks BF!) Pity it's about Kamelion though, one of the worst characters ever invented in Doctor Who, but hey, it is free right, so why not?
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Post by Whovitt on Jan 7, 2022 1:10:42 GMT
Secrets of Telos
I'm a massive fan of Tomb, so I was hoping I'd enjoy this more than I did. It probably didn't help that none of the recasts sounded anything like their original TV counterparts (to my ear), which instantly took me out of the story. I suppose that George Roubicek (Hopper) is getting up in years, but I don't see why they couldn't have brought back Clive Merrison as Jim Callum, instead of just killing/converting him off-screen. The Cyber voices weren't that great either, so in terms of recreating the audio landscape of Tomb, it completely failed for me (aside from the Cybermat and x-ray laser gun sounds because they were terrific!). The first half of the story was a pretty standard base under siege paint-by-numbers affair, and the second half was so inspiring that I think I fell asleep for a few minutes during Part 4, so I'm not entirely sure I understood the resolution. I'm not particularly disappointed by that though, which is a shame because I usually quite enjoy Matt Fitton's work.
God of War
I've never been that much of a fan of the two-part format, and this story is a pretty good example of why. Xasslyr is ever so briefly portrayed as a victim of time, only for him to turn around in a couple of minutes and decide that it's now time to conquer the Earth in the name of Mars. It was just so sudden and, frankly, boring, as it's hardly the first time an Ice Warrior has decided to take over the Earth "because", and we really didn't get any sort of meaningful motivation. I don't feel like we did anything at all original with the Ice Warriors here, and although I think some stories can be "too original" by adding loads of unnecessary backstory and/or lore to pre-existing species, this story simply didn't add anything at all.
And just as an observation for the set as a whole, I thought the sound mix was pretty bad. The theme music was way too loud compared to the scenes around it, and even though I know they really only speak in whispers, there were moments in God of War where I simply couldn't make out a single word the Ice Warriors were saying. Honestly, the regular Warriors were clearer than the Grand Marshall, and his voice is only a low growl as opposed to a whisper!
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It's ironic that my first "review" for 2022 is so negative, as I'd planned on being much more positive when it came to discussing releases this year by highlighting more things that I enjoyed about them. Unfortunately, there wasn't really that much I enjoyed here. I'm not sure there was even a particularly stand-out performance. It was very much a generic release, and I can't say it's getting my hopes up for Forty 2 much. This set already felt overcrowded with trips up and down timelines, different companion line-ups, and returning elements. Given what we already know about the next set, I don't see any of those concerns being improved upon.
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Post by Kestrel on Jan 7, 2022 2:16:20 GMT
"We've got an Ice Warrior story lined up. What should we do with them?" "The same thing we do every time: try to take over the world!"To this day my favorite Ice Warrior story is that Peladon one, where there's just the one Ice Warrior and he's just, like, a regular dude. Not good, not bad, just an ambassador far from home. I've alluded to Doctor Who having a fundamental framing problem w/r/t monsters before, and it's one greatly exemplified by the Ice Warriors (and Silurians and Cybermen and Daleks and Slitheen and, well, literally every alien species that isn't human or Time Lord) -- they're monsters first, people second. Because that's the (inviolable) status quo they can never meaningfully grow or change. So the Ice Warriors (and Silurians and so on) never really get to escape beyond that very rudimentary role of invader. It's extraordinarily stifling. I am reminded of Star Trek where aliens were typically introduced with the similarly narrow role (Klingons are aggressors; Romulans sneaky; Ferengi greedy; Vulcans logical) but in almost every case later stories widened those base archetypes into fairly serviceable approximations of believable cultures. That's what I want for the Ice Warriors (etc.). The only interesting stories left to tell are those that occur after the ETC. have moved on from their immediate, reactionary, "conquer earth" mindset. And the really infuriating thing is that because this is a show about time travel, we could theoretically see these cultures at multiple points in their timeline. From "futures" where they're at peace with earth, to distant preindustrial or agrarian states that are indistinguishable from the more familiar cliches. I mean, who wouldn't love to see an Ice Warrior story set during their Age of Exploration, when vast fleets of wooden sailin vessels traversed the polar seas? ....Erm. Huh. Okay. I am sorry. Kind of went off on a tangent there. Pet peeve, I guess. Big Finish. For the love of stories……nope not feeling it. The peaceful music in the background doesn’t work either. Ok. Back to trying to listen to the actual story. Right, so this is why I'm actually chiming in. What the heck? This is such a bizarre move. They edited the old, "We love stories," to add words and subtract clarity. What on Earth could have motivated this? It also (again) makes me question the differences between British English and American English. Like, remember Flux, the infant diarrhea thing? Similar deal. In A,Eric an English, "In the name of X," is used (effectively exclusively) to express frustration or disgust. "For the love of Christ," or, "For the love of all that is holy," is the kind of thing people say through clenched teeth. I've never seen it used to express genuine affection. I assume it plays better in British English, but Doctor Who has an international audience, and there was no reason to introduce ambiguity here. Simplicity and clarity should always be paramount, IMO, especially with taglines and the like. Again I'm probably talking too much (sorry); it's just such a weird choice.
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Post by Max The Autist on Jan 7, 2022 5:38:41 GMT
My mini-reviews of the Forty Vol. 1 (I suddenly see why some people have rated I, Kamelion 1/5): Secrets Of Telos: Big finish is quite adept at turning iffy serials and series into god-tier masterpieces and this is no exception. It takes the overrated Tomb of the Cybermen and creates a horrific, high-octane, thrilling, and emotional rollercoaster out of its aftermath! The core concept of 5 bouncing down his own timeline, the great body horror the great old and new characters, honestly if it weren't for a clunky first episode, iffy action here and there, and the very beginnings and endings of episodes tending to be iffy at best then this would be a just about perfects story. As it stands it gets a 9/10. I have many critiques, but I have FAR more kind words to say. God Of War: Overall God of War was a lot more of a fun, action-y romp than anything serious, that said it had some quite nice Doctor and Adric moments which are just heartbreaking. It's narrative can feel sloppy and the sound designer needs to learn better balancing but it's a good time. I'm probably being harsh since this came after such an amazing, story and it feels so light and simple, but hell, an 8/10 with high as fiddlesticks praises sounds halfway good to me. It really is an interesting story and surely a nice palate cleanser to separate Secrets from Auton Infinity which will be released later this year. Forty 1 Boxset: Doctor Who has chosen to celebrate the Fifth Doctor's 40th birthday with Forty 1 and damn is it good! The first story is a harrowing and thrilling and just plain terrifying look at the Cybermen and the second is a more lighthearted and 'normal' story of the Doctor and co vs Ice Warriors. Both stories are absolutely stunning with the only real issue between the two being the beginnings and endings of episodes being generally iffy at best, and that's a damn good compliment. Obviously, there are other issues but with so much to love, how could I not rate Forty 1 a 9/10! Interludes: I, Kamelion: Well that was... well it was. Look the writer is writing an audiobook for the first time but like come on. The narration didn't help as Dan can only do a good Turlough voice (and 3rd Doctor voice even if he meant to do a 5th Doctor one) and the quick jumps from dialogue to narration didn't help any. The pacing is a nightmare and all interesting possibilities for the idea are wasted. It has so many interesting ideas and emotional moments and a great soundscape but every other aspect is basically just crap and not even the fun to listen to kind of crap. I mean, I really see why someone would give this a 1. Luckily I'm kind and will instead, in my generosity, give it a 5/10. The cover is great btw, good job. @rafeskiart on Instagram! Proud to BIG FOR THE LOVE see a fan artist work on a real BF cover even if it was for a bad story. Also, I'm angry at all the Kamelion hate. Like, I don't have much experience with them but come on, don't be so mean to the poor thing, he's just a confused little android boy, leave em alone.
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Post by theillusiveman on Jan 8, 2022 9:18:39 GMT
Big Finish. For the love of stories……nope not feeling it. The peaceful music in the background doesn’t work either. Ok. Back to trying to listen to the actual story. Right, so this is why I'm actually chiming in. What the heck? This is such a bizarre move. They edited the old, "We love stories," to add words and subtract clarity. What on Earth could have motivated this? According to the latest Podcast Big Finish went to a marketing team and they came up with "For The Love of Stories" as "We Love Stories" felt like it would be confusing for new listeners (or something among those lines) and yeah they wanted it to be more inclusive so Briggs and co went with it (they also changed the BF Twitter social media to Big Finish insider
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Post by Whovitt on Jan 8, 2022 9:30:07 GMT
Right, so this is why I'm actually chiming in. What the heck? This is such a bizarre move. They edited the old, "We love stories," to add words and subtract clarity. What on Earth could have motivated this? According to the latest Podcast Big Finish went to a marketing team and they came up with "For The Love of Stories" as "We Love Stories" felt like it would be confusing for new listeners (or something among those lines) and yeah they wanted it to be more inclusive so Briggs and co went with it (they also changed the BF Twitter social media to Big Finish insider
(I'm not asking this question specifically of you, your post simply lends the context for it) Call me thick, but how on earth is "For the Love of Stories" less confusing than "We Love Stories"? We Love Stories is one of the most basic sentences in the English language - it means they love stories! The fact that there's even been a discussion on this forum about how we don't understand the new slogan, due its ambiguity over the phrase generally being used in exasperation, surely makes the whole idea behind changing it to this even more laughable... After the last "marketing consultation" Big Finish undertook with regards to the new website ("people like scrolling"...), I think it's about time they started consulting somebody else for their future marketing.
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Post by Kestrel on Jan 8, 2022 10:12:16 GMT
Getting rid of the, "we," also makes it less inclusive.
Mistake #1 was going to a marketing firm for advice about this. The ident is easily the least effective, lowest-profile marketing vector Big Finish has. And, like, the actual, real things BF could do to improve their "image?" They're pretty obvious and we've been discussing them for years.
10:1 odds says this marketing firm is where they got the idea to reduce boxset prices by X and lengths by X+1.
EDIT: and if they have money to spend on consultants, they have money to spend on web design.
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Post by theillusiveman on Jan 8, 2022 10:35:45 GMT
Getting rid of the, "we," also makes it less inclusive. Mistake #1 was going to a marketing firm for advice about this. The ident is easily the least effective, lowest-profile marketing vector Big Finish has. And, like, the actual, real things BF could do to improve their "image?" They're pretty obvious and we've been discussing them for years. 10:1 odds says this marketing firm is where they got the idea to reduce boxset prices by X and lengths by X+1. EDIT: and if they have money to spend on consultants, they have money to spend on web design. We Love Stories is perfect as it symbolizes that Big Finish loves making stories and that they CARE
For The Love of Stories it can be misinterpreted as a negative tone as "For The Love of" is often used as An expression of exasperation which yeah is not good thing plus the new logo on the website looks cluttered
honestly makes me feel like they care more about their image then their products
Honestly they could have asked the community for a vote and could have taken the feedback then through Polls atleast building some goodwill towards the customers and community
But i doubt Big Finish would listen after all didnt Nick in the podcast say that its just change that we have to get use to
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Post by grinch on Jan 8, 2022 10:36:59 GMT
Getting rid of the, "we," also makes it less inclusive. Mistake #1 was going to a marketing firm for advice about this. The ident is easily the least effective, lowest-profile marketing vector Big Finish has. And, like, the actual, real things BF could do to improve their "image?" They're pretty obvious and we've been discussing them for years. 10:1 odds says this marketing firm is where they got the idea to reduce boxset prices by X and lengths by X+1. EDIT: and if they have money to spend on consultants, they have money to spend on web design. We Love Stories is perfect as it symbolizes that Big Finish loves making stories and that they CARE
For The Love of Stories it can be misinterpreted as a negative tone as "For The Love of" is often used as An expression of exasperation which yeah is not good thing plus the new logo on the website looks cluttered
honestly makes me feel like they care more about their image then their products
Honestly they could have asked the community for a vote and could have taken the feedback then through Polls atleast building some goodwill towards the customers and community
But i doubt Big Finish would listen after all didnt Nick in the podcast say that its just change that we have to get use to
For the Love of Stories doesn’t even roll off the tongue that well. Forget Marketing Companies, all you’d have to do is say it a few times to realise that it’s not great.
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