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Post by shallacatop on Jul 1, 2022 10:21:27 GMT
Of course you won’t see the issue, you’re being paid to write scripts for the range. That’s unnecessarily snide. Be better than that. No snideness intended at all, although rich coming from the man who called me absurd recently.
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Post by shallacatop on Jul 1, 2022 10:24:37 GMT
Nobody is saying that. We’ve had the first run where every story was penned by a different writer. We’ve had the second run where, so far, only three out of the nine are new to the range and the rest are penned by others that have not only written for the range but also crop up elsewhere frequently. The Ninth Doctor Adventures have the luxury of not telling a bigger story and are very standalone, even when they feature a crossover. That’s an excellent opportunity to get more people in, both new to the range and new to Big Finish. To see the variety from the first run compared to the second is disappointing and I’d liked to have seen it continue. If people are happy with the variety then that’s great. I feel we had a good thing that’s reverted back to the status quo. It’s certainly better than it was and I feel there’s room for improvement. The first run of anything is pretty much always going to be different people who’ve never done it before. This is probably true of every single range. (Although in this case it depends how you define Ravagers). But it’s fairly obviously impractical to maintain that. So you’re always going to veer towards a mix. Though I would say that I’m not convinced the 9DAs are the best place to try out people particularly. Like you say, it’s a flagship range. Though hopefully there’ll be some.I think that’s a bit disheartening to read given the nature of the 9DAs and Eccleston’s comments about the industry. I do hope we will get some new names. And to be fair it was nice to read comments from Tim in the new Vortex about him being at school when Chris’s series aired.
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
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Post by lidar2 on Jul 1, 2022 10:25:30 GMT
Then I suppose the question is what percentage would work for you? How many episodes by people who’ve written for 9 before are allowed? It seems as if you’re suggesting that experience should disqualify you from doing the gig, for some reason. What’s actually wrong with that? I don’t see the problem with getting as many people new to the range in as possible. They offer different voices and variety. That’s not to say previous writers can’t do that, but variety should always be key, particularly in a range like the 9DAs where everything is unconnected and not arc driven. I don’t think that’s hard to grasp. And again, nobody is saying experience should disqualify you. But when you’ve had a first run penned by different writers each story to then lose that somewhat by the second run is disappointing. It’s nice to see variety. And your question could be flipped on its head; what’s wrong with someone else writing for Liv & Tania? It’d be nice to see what someone else could offer. I think, as a general principle, new writers require more work / mentoring from the script editor. That's not to say someone can't be brilliant and hit the ground running, but more often than not people take a while to find their feet. ("New" can mean anything from an established writer who is new to BF or someone new to professional writing generally getting their first commission). Eric Saward has made the point that JNT's ban on writers from before his era (on the grounds they were "Who-ed out") resulted in a LOT more work for the script editor and, in all likelihood, an overall lower standard of scripts. To move away from scripts, if I have used a plumber in the past and have found said plumber to be reliable, competent, honest, reasonably priced, etc. then that plumber is going to be my first port of call next time I need some plumbing work done, as opposed to a newbie who might turn out to be a wonderful plumber but might equally well turn out to be terrible. I take your point about the need for variety, new voices, etc. but on purely practical grounds that has to be balanced against proven reliability and proven ability to deliver a workable script on time. Plus, I think there is an assumption underlying your argument that existing writers can't do new things, think outside the box, etc. that I wouldn't necessarily go along with. Personally I think BF have the right approach in aiming for a balance overall.
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Post by shallacatop on Jul 1, 2022 10:28:37 GMT
And just to point out, there’s a lot of blurring of lines between new writers and new to the range. They’re not the same thing. Of course getting 12 episodes out by 12 brand new writers to Big Finish isn’t feasible; imagine the time and effort needed! That’s why nobody is saying it should be done.
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dorney
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Post by dorney on Jul 1, 2022 10:32:27 GMT
That’s unnecessarily snide. Be better than that. No snideness intended at all, although rich coming from the man who called me absurd recently. It is though. It’s implying that I’m saying it’s not an issue because of financial interest and not because it’s something I genuinely believe. I really do believe it, and I champion new writers across the board behind the scenes (I’ve got one of my finds to start reading today, as it happens). There clearly is variety there, new writers coming in, and so on. You say you don’t think the variety is as good as it could be, but you still don’t specify what mix is acceptable. What percentage need to be new? And for what it’s worth - I didn’t call you absurd. I said that something you’d said was - very different thing. And I stand by that. It was a bit silly. Doesn’t mean you are.
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dorney
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Post by dorney on Jul 1, 2022 10:38:41 GMT
The first run of anything is pretty much always going to be different people who’ve never done it before. This is probably true of every single range. (Although in this case it depends how you define Ravagers). But it’s fairly obviously impractical to maintain that. So you’re always going to veer towards a mix. Though I would say that I’m not convinced the 9DAs are the best place to try out people particularly. Like you say, it’s a flagship range. Though hopefully there’ll be some.I think that’s a bit disheartening to read given the nature of the 9DAs and Eccleston’s comments about the industry. I do hope we will get some new names. And to be fair it was nice to read comments from Tim in the new Vortex about him being at school when Chris’s series aired. If it helps, think of it from the writer’s perspective. We’ve definitely had new writers turn down slots on ranges because they felt they were too high profile and they wanted to start off on something smaller. Like for me, if I wrote something for TV, I’d definitely prefer to be writing as part of the team on someone else’s show before penning an original drama of my own.
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Post by shallacatop on Jul 1, 2022 10:41:56 GMT
No snideness intended at all, although rich coming from the man who called me absurd recently. It is though. It’s implying that I’m saying it’s not an issue because of financial interest and not because it’s something I genuinely believe. I really do believe it, and I champion new writers across the board behind the scenes (I’ve got one of my finds to start reading today, as it happens). There clearly is variety there, new writers coming in, and so on. You say you don’t think the variety is as good as it could be, but you still don’t specify what mix is acceptable. What percentage need to be new? And for what it’s worth - I didn’t call you absurd. I said that something you’d said was - very different thing. And I stand by that. It was a bit silly. Doesn’t mean you are. No it’s not. My point was more about how I don’t think you can be fully impartial due to how close you are to the product and process. I’m not saying you don’t find it to be an issue and I’m certainly not implying it either. And I don’t think you help yourself with often woolly, politician-esque responses, although I appreciate I certainly don’t help myself either. There’s a confusion here between new writers and writers who have never written for the range before. Series 1 of the 9DAs featured unique writers for every story (counting Ravagers as one). I’d liked to have seen Series 2 maintain that and there’s certainly enough people in the Big Finish writing pool penning Doctor Who and spin-off stories to do that. Or at least a majority balance of 9/12 (obviously depends on multi episode stories and whatnot). If they feature brand new writers than that’d be amazing, but I do understand the time, effort and constraints which is why I’d never be so absurd as to suggest that. It’s just not feasible. It’s a flagship range, it’s blessed with a lack of ongoing story and continuity. Would be great to utilise that with more variety. That’s all; nothing more, nothing less. It doesn’t mean previous writers get disqualified and it doesn’t mean previous writers can’t pull something new out the bag. It’s just thoughts shared based on a news announcement.
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Post by mark687 on Jul 1, 2022 10:46:22 GMT
I don’t see the problem with getting as many people new to the range in as possible. They offer different voices and variety. That’s not to say previous writers can’t do that, but variety should always be key, particularly in a range like the 9DAs where everything is unconnected and not arc driven. I don’t think that’s hard to grasp. And again, nobody is saying experience should disqualify you. But when you’ve had a first run penned by different writers each story to then lose that somewhat by the second run is disappointing. It’s nice to see variety. And your question could be flipped on its head; what’s wrong with someone else writing for Liv & Tania? It’d be nice to see what someone else could offer. I think, as a general principle, new writers require more work / mentoring from the script editor. That's not to say someone can't be brilliant and hit the ground running, but more often than not people take a while to find their feet. ("New" can mean anything from an established writer who is new to BF or someone new to professional writing generally getting their first commission). Eric Saward has made the point that JNT's ban on writers from before his era (on the grounds they were "Who-ed out") resulted in a LOT more work for the script editor and, in all likelihood, an overall lower standard of scripts. To move away from scripts, if I have used a plumber in the past and have found said plumber to be reliable, competent, honest, reasonably priced, etc. then that plumber is going to be my first port of call next time I need some plumbing work done, as opposed to a newbie who might turn out to be a wonderful plumber but might equally well turn out to be terrible.
I take your point about the need for variety, new voices, etc. but on purely practical grounds that has to be balanced against proven reliability and proven ability to deliver a workable script on time. Plus, I think there is an assumption underlying your argument that existing writers can't do new things, think outside the box, etc. that I wouldn't necessarily go along with. Personally I think BF have the right approach in aiming for a balance overall. Exactly in any Business your going to keep people Employed that can deliver. Also I don't imagine there are proven writers twiddling their thumbs waiting for BFs Phoncall. The unintended consequence of moving to boxsets seems to be we are more vocal on what stories don't work, how often would you place a new writer in that environment? Regards mark687
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2022 11:07:39 GMT
The unintended consequence of moving to boxsets seems to be we are more vocal on what stories don't work, how often would you place a new writer in that environment? That was probably the advantage of the single release formula, as it was [generally] one writer, one story, one release... if that story didn't work for you there was another one coming along next month. With the box-sets you might have three/four different writers of the three/four stories (or parts of a bigger story) in the set and the writing could vary between the stories. So a poor story in a set would often make me feel down about the whole set as my mind concentrated on what I didn't like. The good stories were taken for granted.
Of course, in any set of stories one will always be weaker than the rest, just as somebody has to finish last in a race, but I can honestly say that what I feel are the weaker stories in some of the box-sets I have listened to are not always by the newer writers!
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Post by mark687 on Jul 1, 2022 11:17:54 GMT
It is though. It’s implying that I’m saying it’s not an issue because of financial interest and not because it’s something I genuinely believe. I really do believe it, and I champion new writers across the board behind the scenes (I’ve got one of my finds to start reading today, as it happens). There clearly is variety there, new writers coming in, and so on. You say you don’t think the variety is as good as it could be, but you still don’t specify what mix is acceptable. What percentage need to be new? And for what it’s worth - I didn’t call you absurd. I said that something you’d said was - very different thing. And I stand by that. It was a bit silly. Doesn’t mean you are. No it’s not. My point was more about how I don’t think you can be fully impartial due to how close you are to the product and process. I’m not saying you don’t find it to be an issue and I’m certainly not implying it either. And I don’t think you help yourself with often woolly, politician-esque responses, although I appreciate I certainly don’t help myself either. There’s a confusion here between new writers and writers who have never written for the range before. Series 1 of the 9DAs featured unique writers for every story (counting Ravagers as one). I’d liked to have seen Series 2 maintain that and there’s certainly enough people in the Big Finish writing pool penning Doctor Who and spin-off stories to do that. at least a OR a majority balance of 9/12 (obviously depends on multi episode stories and whatnot). If they feature brand new writers than that’d be amazing, but I do understand the time, effort and constraints which is why I’d never be so absurd as to suggest that. It’s just not feasible.It’s a flagship range, it’s blessed with a lack of ongoing story and continuity. Would be great to utilise that with more variety. That’s all; nothing more, nothing less. It doesn’t mean previous writers get disqualified and it doesn’t mean previous writers can’t pull something new out the bag. It’s just thoughts shared based on a news announcement. I'm not being antagonistic here I'm just fascinated by your position So imagine your Producer of a Range its made 16 stories you've got Money and Recording slots for 32 You've ask all your Writers, of those that can do it in the time 5 or 6 can actually write more than one in time to make the Recording, you wouldn't say no to them and drop the Range to 24 stories because you don't like repeating Writers in a Range would you? Regards mark687
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lidar2
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You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
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Post by lidar2 on Jul 1, 2022 11:36:34 GMT
The unintended consequence of moving to boxsets seems to be we are more vocal on what stories don't work, how often would you place a new writer in that environment? That was probably the advantage of the single release formula, as it was [generally] one writer, one story, one release... if that story didn't work for you there was another one coming along next month. With the box-sets you might have three/four different writers of the three/four stories (or parts of a bigger story) in the set and the writing could vary between the stories. So a poor story in a set would often make me feel down about the whole set as my mind concentrated on what I didn't like. The good stories were taken for granted.
Of course, in any set of stories one will always be weaker than the rest, just as somebody has to finish last in a race, but I can honestly say that what I feel are the weaker stories in some of the box-sets I have listened to are not always by the newer writers!
Tell that to Colin Baker and see how well it goes down!
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Post by mark687 on Jul 1, 2022 11:46:03 GMT
That was probably the advantage of the single release formula, as it was [generally] one writer, one story, one release... if that story didn't work for you there was another one coming along next month. With the box-sets you might have three/four different writers of the three/four stories (or parts of a bigger story) in the set and the writing could vary between the stories. So a poor story in a set would often make me feel down about the whole set as my mind concentrated on what I didn't like. The good stories were taken for granted.
Of course, in any set of stories one will always be weaker than the rest, just as somebody has to finish last in a race, but I can honestly say that what I feel are the weaker stories in some of the box-sets I have listened to are not always by the newer writers!
Tell that to Colin Baker and see how well it goes down! He makes a great comment Rethinking that in the Matthew Sweet interview on the Season 22 Blu-Ray. Regards mark687
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Post by shallacatop on Jul 1, 2022 12:28:00 GMT
No it’s not. My point was more about how I don’t think you can be fully impartial due to how close you are to the product and process. I’m not saying you don’t find it to be an issue and I’m certainly not implying it either. And I don’t think you help yourself with often woolly, politician-esque responses, although I appreciate I certainly don’t help myself either. There’s a confusion here between new writers and writers who have never written for the range before. Series 1 of the 9DAs featured unique writers for every story (counting Ravagers as one). I’d liked to have seen Series 2 maintain that and there’s certainly enough people in the Big Finish writing pool penning Doctor Who and spin-off stories to do that. at least a OR a majority balance of 9/12 (obviously depends on multi episode stories and whatnot). If they feature brand new writers than that’d be amazing, but I do understand the time, effort and constraints which is why I’d never be so absurd as to suggest that. It’s just not feasible.It’s a flagship range, it’s blessed with a lack of ongoing story and continuity. Would be great to utilise that with more variety. That’s all; nothing more, nothing less. It doesn’t mean previous writers get disqualified and it doesn’t mean previous writers can’t pull something new out the bag. It’s just thoughts shared based on a news announcement. I'm not being antagonistic here I'm just fascinated by your position So imagine your Producer of a Range its made 16 stories you've got Money and Recording slots for 32 You've ask all your Writers, of those that can do it in the time 5 or 6 can actually write more than one in time to make the Recording, you wouldn't say no to them and drop the Range to 24 stories because you don't like repeating Writers in a Range would you? Regards mark687 I know you're not being antagonistic, don't worry. I do think it's odd to pose a hypothetical when the discussion is dealing with something tangible; names against actual stories. But to answer your question, no, you wouldn't drop the range because that wouldn't make production sense. But there's so many factors in there, not to mention that what you're posing doesn't appear to be the case here with the 9DAs, that I'm talking from a consumer's point of view, not a business and that what my preference is isn't some out of the blue request; it's actually happened for one series and I admire that and would liked to have seen it continue, or at least as a majority.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Jul 1, 2022 13:49:32 GMT
I think there is something to the thought that the move to box sets highlights audios that aren’t well received as opposed to a single, monthly release format. We are probably paying about the same for every hour of content but because the cost was higher for the three, the perception shifts. Anyway. The 9DA range is a big deal for BF and I get the production team wanting to keep the scripts in safe hands. I also get wanting to increase diversity in the writers ranks but it does take time to develop writers. I think thus far the range has done a pretty good job of mixing and matching and as a company BF has made huge strides in the past couple of years in developing & producing scripts by new, or new to them, writers.
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Post by BHTvsTFC on Jul 1, 2022 20:11:47 GMT
The plumber comparison is a bit rubbish to be honest. A plumber would be there to do one job and if you got a good one you would stick with them come what may, but they would still have to move with the times, get used to changes in equipment etc. To apply the comparison to DW take Pyramids of Mars, arguably one of the best stories of them all, but would you want Pyramids of Mars without any variation every single time?
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Jul 2, 2022 1:46:37 GMT
Whenever this question comes up, I'm of two minds: on the one hand, of course there could and should be a greater selection. BF have made strides, to their credit, but I do think the heavy emphasis on boxsets may have left them without those 'lower risk' one-off ranges where you can try out new guys without much fear of blowback .It’s worth noting that the last set of ‘The Robots’ had three scripts written by people who’d never done the range before, including one where it was their first ever script. Realistically, new writers take time to develop, so a script from an old hand who knows the ropes gives you time to develop material from the people who don’t. So a mix is always good. There’s also the “OHH NEW …. STORY!!” factor, whereby folks will see a title by (say) Matt Fitton or James Swallow and know they’re in for a good story, which would balance the “I don’t know about… “ factor whereby an unknown name (or a name who writes stuff you might not normally enjoy) and mean an on the fence buyer swings over to “buy” rather than “wait for reviews”.
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Post by BHTvsTFC on Jul 2, 2022 7:40:15 GMT
Yes... it's a balancing act. Like I said in the past it was a problem because the releases were getting very samey and generic. The gimmicks might be a little stale now, but the variety of writers can add to making them a bit more individually nuanced, and it does help the long term writers stay fresh too. It's not fool proof but nothing in the creative world ever is. Also, sincere apologies to any writers who feel under appreciated by this issue - some of us must feel like The Gods of Ragnorok sometimes. Every single one of the regulars has written something amazing in their time, stories that I will listen too over and over for the rest of my life.
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Post by Kestrel on Jul 2, 2022 9:03:39 GMT
I'm not as familiar with the production info as a lot of Doctor Who fans seem to be, mostly only noticing writers' credits when I'm especially impressed, but it was (and is) my understanding that Big Finish has been using new writers in the NABS range, which I thought (and think) was pretty cool. Perhaps it's different from Big Finish's perspective, but I certainly view NABS as a flagship range. As for the 9DAs specifically... I'm not really bothered. This is one of the few ranges Big Finish can use to draw in new fans, somit makes sense that they're going to want to do everything they can to ensure a consistent level of quality. And that means taking fewer risks. But so long as they're still taking those risks in other ranges (and I think they are) I don't really mind. I'd also point at the 10DAs. While not strictly analogous, the 10DAs also started out playing things very safe (story-wise), but eventually too, a more ambitious turn. Every single one of the regulars has written something amazing in their time, stories that I will listen too over and over for the rest of my life. This is truth. And something I like to bring up every time someone has something negative to say about an upcoming release because of a certain writer being attached. Like I said, I really only notice those names when I'm impressed--when I either love a story, or intensely dislike it. And I can't count the number of times i I've looked up a writer's name for both reasons.
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Post by mark687 on Sept 27, 2022 14:05:23 GMT
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Post by antartiks on Sept 27, 2022 14:12:45 GMT
Edit : I see you were faster than me for the individual covers mark. Kinda bothered by Tania having two different haircuts. Why did they do that when they could have used the same picture twice ?
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