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Post by martinw8686 on Jul 27, 2023 20:07:42 GMT
Having just finished Jaime, I'm a little confused about how old he's meant to be here?
The front cover looks like a man in his 70s and no mention is made of his life since The War Games.
I always imagined the Jaime travelling with the Doctor from season 6b was no older than 40
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Post by nardole on Jul 28, 2023 1:18:38 GMT
Hes supposed to be in his 50s but yea he does look like his 70s
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Post by adamfinch on Jul 28, 2023 3:42:02 GMT
I think you can jump on, just knowing the 2nd is working for the timelords after War Games. He's been pulled out of time in the second between his death and regenerating into the 3rd Doctor. That said I really enjoyed the first story from Beyond War Games but the second could have been any story from the 2nd Doctor era. Yep, Beyond War Games adds nothing to what everyone already knows about Season 6B. There’s a new character, Raven, but their presence is so minimal that presumably James Robert McCrimmon will be their proper debut. I don’t fully agree with this - [Beyond War Games mild spoilers] the 2DAs explicitly feature the splinter Doctor, distinct from the 2nd or 3rd Doctors, with an independent existence (albeit at the whim of the Time Lords). They could terminate this splinter at any time, without affecting the Doctor’s ongoing existence. This feels like a significant addition to the 6B lore. The specific dialogue in Beyond War Games: Raven [commenting on the Doctor hearing Treloar performing Season 7 dialogue]: ‘This is your exile… That remains unchanged and so it continues. You exist now as a splinter of your own timeline.’ Extended Extras; Nick Briggs: ‘The Second Doctor’s new adventures are running sort of parallel to his other incarnations so there may be possibilities in that’ How this reconciles with The Two Doctors is unclear (as that Doctor was explicitly not parallel to Colin’s - otherwise the Androgum augmentation wouldn’t have affected the 6th Doctor).
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Post by shallacatop on Jul 28, 2023 9:04:37 GMT
Yep, Beyond War Games adds nothing to what everyone already knows about Season 6B. There’s a new character, Raven, but their presence is so minimal that presumably James Robert McCrimmon will be their proper debut. I don’t fully agree with this - [Beyond War Games mild spoilers] the 2DAs explicitly feature the splinter Doctor, distinct from the 2nd or 3rd Doctors, with an independent existence (albeit at the whim of the Time Lords). They could terminate this splinter at any time, without affecting the Doctor’s ongoing existence. This feels like a significant addition to the 6B lore. The specific dialogue in Beyond War Games: Raven [commenting on the Doctor hearing Treloar performing Season 7 dialogue]: ‘This is your exile… That remains unchanged and so it continues. You exist now as a splinter of your own timeline.’ Extended Extras; Nick Briggs: ‘The Second Doctor’s new adventures are running sort of parallel to his other incarnations so there may be possibilities in that’ How this reconciles with The Two Doctors is unclear (as that Doctor was explicitly not parallel to Colin’s - otherwise the Androgum augmentation wouldn’t have affected the 6th Doctor). I'm not really sure what that is adding, to be honest. It contributes nothing to the stories, adds no jeopardy and isn't referenced any further. What difference is terminating the splinter to the Time Lords eventually going through with the exile? It's one and the same as of now.
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Post by timleschild on Jul 28, 2023 9:11:19 GMT
So this is basically just further adventures for 2nd Doctor? Even bringing back an old companion?
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Post by roosa88 on Jul 28, 2023 12:43:07 GMT
Yep, Beyond War Games adds nothing to what everyone already knows about Season 6B. There’s a new character, Raven, but their presence is so minimal that presumably James Robert McCrimmon will be their proper debut. I don’t fully agree with this - [Beyond War Games mild spoilers] the 2DAs explicitly feature the splinter Doctor, distinct from the 2nd or 3rd Doctors, with an independent existence (albeit at the whim of the Time Lords). They could terminate this splinter at any time, without affecting the Doctor’s ongoing existence. This feels like a significant addition to the 6B lore. The specific dialogue in Beyond War Games: Raven [commenting on the Doctor hearing Treloar performing Season 7 dialogue]: ‘This is your exile… That remains unchanged and so it continues. You exist now as a splinter of your own timeline.’ Extended Extras; Nick Briggs: ‘The Second Doctor’s new adventures are running sort of parallel to his other incarnations so there may be possibilities in that’ How this reconciles with The Two Doctors is unclear (as that Doctor was explicitly not parallel to Colin’s - otherwise the Androgum augmentation wouldn’t have affected the 6th Doctor). I don't think it will reconcile with The Two Doctors as Big Finish have already covered that in the superb Early Adventure - The Black Hole. Hoping this doesn't count as a spoiler as this release has been out for 8 years now, but this story explains The Two Doctors takes place during the time The Doctor and Jamie are still travelling with Victoria.
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Post by bonehead on Jul 28, 2023 13:11:24 GMT
I wonder if Big Finish wish they'd just continued telling traditional Second Doctor stories now Michael Troughton's on board, as opposed to all this 6B stuff? They do seem to be tying themselves up in knots unneccessarily. Unless of course they plan on adapting the TV Comic strip The Night Walkers at some stage? Now that'd make it worthwhile!
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Post by grinch on Jul 28, 2023 13:16:39 GMT
I wonder if Big Finish wish they'd just continued telling traditional Second Doctor stories now Michael Troughton's on board, as opposed to all this 6B stuff? They do seem to be tying themselves up in knots unneccessarily. Unless of course they plan on adapting the TV Comic strip The Night Walkers at some stage? Now that'd make it worthwhile!
I’ve yet to listen to any of it so far so I can’t possibly comment on its quality as a series. But is it just going to be Series 6B stuff going forward? No more standalone adventures like we used to get with the excellent Early Adventures?
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Post by Who Review on Jul 28, 2023 14:17:02 GMT
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Post by adamfinch on Jul 28, 2023 14:23:44 GMT
I don’t fully agree with this - [Beyond War Games mild spoilers] the 2DAs explicitly feature the splinter Doctor, distinct from the 2nd or 3rd Doctors, with an independent existence (albeit at the whim of the Time Lords). They could terminate this splinter at any time, without affecting the Doctor’s ongoing existence. This feels like a significant addition to the 6B lore. The specific dialogue in Beyond War Games: Raven [commenting on the Doctor hearing Treloar performing Season 7 dialogue]: ‘This is your exile… That remains unchanged and so it continues. You exist now as a splinter of your own timeline.’ Extended Extras; Nick Briggs: ‘The Second Doctor’s new adventures are running sort of parallel to his other incarnations so there may be possibilities in that’ How this reconciles with The Two Doctors is unclear (as that Doctor was explicitly not parallel to Colin’s - otherwise the Androgum augmentation wouldn’t have affected the 6th Doctor). I'm not really sure what that is adding, to be honest. It contributes nothing to the stories, adds no jeopardy and isn't referenced any further. What difference is terminating the splinter to the Time Lords eventually going through with the exile? It's one and the same as of now. For me it adds jeopardy - as the 3rd Doctor is continuing his adventures, this Splinter Doctor could do any number of things in his future. Be erased from existence. Go rogue. Turn into an evil version. Even, perhaps, regenerate at some point into a Fugitive from Division….?! But yeah, he’s basically an Unbound Doctor whose future is not tied to Spearhead from Space
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Post by fitzoliverj on Jul 28, 2023 14:30:08 GMT
Thoughts:
1) I recall reading a fanfic (I think by a DW novelist) which was a second and third Doctor crossover with Blake's 7, which ends with the second Doctor managing to change history and escape his exile. I'm not sure that BF's version sounds as good.
2) Is there a rule that Patrick Troughton's sons are only allowed to play fake second Doctors?
3) What's the point of doing Season 6b if you're not going to have the real Doctor doing it?
4) Any chance what he's been told is a lie?
5) Somebody on Twitter reckoned this dialogue meant that BF were going to turn Michael Troughton into Jo Martin.
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Post by mark687 on Jul 28, 2023 14:54:16 GMT
I wonder if Big Finish wish they'd just continued telling traditional Second Doctor stories now Michael Troughton's on board, as opposed to all this 6B stuff? They do seem to be tying themselves up in knots unneccessarily. Unless of course they plan on adapting the TV Comic strip The Night Walkers at some stage? Now that'd make it worthwhile!
I’ve yet to listen to any of it so far so I can’t possibly comment on its quality as a series. But is it just going to be Series 6B stuff going forward? No more standalone adventures like we used to get with the excellent Early Adventures? Yes Nick and Mark Wright have an Arc planned (at least till 2025 and still the 1 Release in the Range per Year) Regards mark687
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Post by adamfinch on Jul 28, 2023 15:19:26 GMT
Thoughts: 1) I recall reading a fanfic (I think by a DW novelist) which was a second and third Doctor crossover with Blake's 7, which ends with the second Doctor managing to change history and escape his exile. I'm not sure that BF's version sounds as good. 2) Is there a rule that Patrick Troughton's sons are only allowed to play fake second Doctors? 3) What's the point of doing Season 6b if you're not going to have the real Doctor doing it? 4) Any chance what he's been told is a lie? 5) Somebody on Twitter reckoned this dialogue meant that BF were going to turn Michael Troughton into Jo Martin. Firstly, I’m not saying I’m right and others are wrong - I personally really like it but definitely YMMV. 1. YMMV 2. LOL 3. YMMV 4. It’s can’t be ruled out but on balance the intent seems to be it’s “true”. In story he experiences the weirdness of the 3rd Doctor already going ahead with his existence as he splinters away, and it’s confirmed in the extra material by Briggs 5. Fun headcanon but IDBI
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Post by Kestrel on Jul 29, 2023 4:54:16 GMT
Halfway through the set now and really enjoying it. Still a bit iffy on some aspects, but overall much more confident in the range. From the first set, I thought the biggest (initial) weakness of the range was the character of Raven, who I then-thought was miscast. And, I mean... I still kind of think that, but she works much, MUCH better here -- especially in the first story -- now that she's given a bit more to do. Who would ever have guessed? All she needed was some characterization and other characters to bounce off of. The big downside of that first story, though, is that I left it thinking that maybe I'd rather see the 2nd Doctor traveling around with Raven than more adventures with Jamie... though the three of them together would be a treat. 3) What's the point of doing Season 6b if you're not going to have the real Doctor doing it? I'm not sure you're approaching this from the right angle. Or, at least, your interpretation of the premise is very different from my own, so maybe by sharing mine I can lessen some of your concerns? Maybe? Well, to do that, sadly, I gotta begin with the quote. You know the quote. That quote. That's the one. See, the thing about Doctor Who that people often forget, even the writers -- especially the writers -- is that it's about time travel. The Doctor is a time-traveler. That means their path through the universe is not linear -- imagine a bunch of threads all mashed together in a ball, knotting together, in tension with one another. The past and future criss-crossed on top of each other. See, the thing is, every Doctor's life is constantly running parallel to every other Doctor's life. There is no "before" or "after" beyond the immediate, subjective relation of one Doctor the the next -- a very nebulous and subjective distinction. But to speak more concretely on the "Splinter" of the 2nd Doctor here: the way I see it, what the CIA did was simply remove the Doctor from his timestream in that moment immediately precipitating regeneration in some manner in which his death would immediately return him to that moment. That way, the 3rd Doctor's exile remains a Fixed Point in the timeline -- but this "Splinter" of the 2nd Doctor is still very much the same thing, but unbound from the rest of the Doctor's continuity. Unbound not because he's a fake Doctor -- he's not -- but because he's totally free from all that (to him) potential future-continuity. That "nebulous and subjective" distinction between past and present Doctors simply does not apply to this particular version of the 2nd Doctor, since part of that fixed point in time is the 3rd Doctor regenerating on Earth with no memory of "season 6B." From a narrative perspective, this frees up Big Finish to do literally anything to the 2nd Doctor without affecting continuity. Sure, he can die at any time, but more importantly (or at least more usefully) he can more freely participate in all manner of other continuity-breaking shenanigans. Who's to say that the 2nd Doctor didn't fly around the universe for a while with River Song? Or face off against the War Master? Or fight in the Time War? Or get into an eating contest with the 10th Doctor? Or give the 9th Doctor a good talking-to? That wasn't a rhetorical question, by the way. Who can say? Only the subsequent regenerations of the Doctor could say, but since they won't remember anything this 2nd Doctor does, they can't.
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Post by thegreendeath on Jul 29, 2023 8:46:45 GMT
Really enjoyed all three stories here. “Green Man” was probably my favorite (especially the breezy and often hilarious first episode), but every story had strengths. I felt part two of “The Shroud” was far better than part one and the stuff that happens with Raven is very intriguing and a good set up for Volume 3. Raven, by the way, is a character I like a great deal, I must say.
I’ll probably pick up Vol 1 when it’s on preorder price as I liked this a lot and will want to have every part of the 6b arc, but I really didn’t feel lost without it. This felt like what I’d want of Mark Wright produced a 6b series- varied locations and ideas, some darkness and a nice sense of purpose. Also, though I’m not always a huge fan of his own scripts, I think Nick Briggs does quite a good job as a script editor.
Lastly, since it’s the first I’ve heard him since Annihilators I should mention that Michael Troughton does a wonderful job, much better than Hines (IMO) in capturing the whole spirit of the second Doctor. Hines did a good job of a “shorthand caricature” appropriate for Companion Chronicles, but never quite convinced me in full cast work.
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Post by nardole on Jul 29, 2023 12:42:12 GMT
My problem with Hines was even though hes really good every now and then id hear a bit of Jamie in 2s voice which would throw me off, while Michael doesnt soumd exactly like 2, he has the spirit right and his voice doesnt throw me off like that.
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Post by Timelord007 on Aug 4, 2023 6:02:26 GMT
Enjoyed this very much, 3 entertaining audio dramas.
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Post by elkawho on Aug 6, 2023 13:35:28 GMT
I just listened to this for a second time. Knowing how upset Frazer was when Michael was announced as Two, it really feels like this entire boxset is Nick making Frazer feel better about his place at Big Finish. He pretty much says so in the BTS interviews. That being said, I think all three stories in this set are excellent. Michael and Frazer work well together and I do like Raven as a recurring character. I think I like this set even better that After War Games and they may have even changed my mind regarding season 6B. I never really liked the idea, but now I admit that I may have been wrong about that. Great set!
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Post by sherlock on Aug 6, 2023 13:45:39 GMT
Done the first story and first half of the second. This is my first dip into the range, and Michael Troughton’s Two has grown on me. The snippets of him in Once and Future didn’t do him much justice.
The reintroduction of Jamie here is well some and gives Hines some meatier material. I’ll be honest though the start with the Doctor solo and then with Raven had more going for it for me, just as it offered a different dynamic. Raven is also quite a fun Time Lady; disdain personified.
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Post by thegreendeath on Aug 6, 2023 14:00:45 GMT
they may have even changed my mind regarding season 6B. I never really liked the idea, but now I admit that I may have been wrong about that. Great set! I feel the same. I never found 6b a compelling enough idea to pursue, but darn it all of they haven’t turned these into a really engaging range.
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