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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2021 14:25:18 GMT
The Two Doctors. ... wow, that last episode is really grim, especially after the rather dark hilarity of the first two episodes. With one of the best commentaries ever. As I said before about it, if the eskimos have 50 words for snow, Jacqueline Pearce has 50 meanings for "Daaaaarling". In this commentary alone she uses it to mean "Thanks for the compliment", "I'm sorry I didn't know that person passed away", ""You're awfully brave" and many, many more. A good few years back when the Blake's 7 DVDs came out first, a mate of mine suggested we do shots whenever we heard "Daaaahling" on a Blake's 7 commentary and I swear there was one where she says it 5 times in 30 seconds - to start and finish a sentence with one in the middle for luck. Bags of fun - and she's the first to admit she's not got a clue what's going on in The Two Docs. Colin seems to struggle with the tone of it - wanting to defend it as dark humour but recognising it comes off more crass and misjudged, especially given Shockeyes rather horrible death that is 100% on The Doctor and our fave waiter copping it. Frazer Hines is a wee bit letchy when any young woman comes on screen...those comments don't age well in 2020.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2021 15:06:21 GMT
The Two Doctors. ... wow, that last episode is really grim, especially after the rather dark hilarity of the first two episodes. The only time I felt The Two Doctors 'got it wrong' was the fate of Oscar Botcherby. A kindly, comedic figure, he really didn't deserve what happened to him, or the way in which it happened. It just felt out of place and unnecessary, especially as it left the lovely, and quite innocent, Anita bereft. It wouldn't have harmed the story to at least have given them a happier ending.
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Post by elkawho on Jan 10, 2021 18:12:01 GMT
Orphan 55.
Nope. Still can't work out why this has a less than stellar reputation. Yep, it catalogues the future of the human race, something covered in other Doctor Who stories - but as Jodie says at the end, the events witnessed are just one of a myriad possibilities (which kind of covers any continuity issues), none of them fixed. Also, it's done well, and the revelation (and the final scene) is shocking. Perhaps The Doctor's message is a bit 'on the nose' but I can't think of a single reason why it shouldn't be. Characters are lining up to sacrifice themselves, which is one criticism this gets - and I can see that: it's true. But for me, the good (visually, it is extraordinary) vastly outweighs the bad.
Three episodes into Series 12 and I love them all upto this point. Further progress imminent!
And for me this is one of the worst episodes of Doctor Who. I'd watch Timelash (which I like in all it's cheesy glory), Time Flight, and The Twin Dilemma in a marathon before attempting to watch that episode again.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2021 18:44:29 GMT
Orphan 55.
Nope. Still can't work out why this has a less than stellar reputation. Yep, it catalogues the future of the human race, something covered in other Doctor Who stories - but as Jodie says at the end, the events witnessed are just one of a myriad possibilities (which kind of covers any continuity issues), none of them fixed. Also, it's done well, and the revelation (and the final scene) is shocking. Perhaps The Doctor's message is a bit 'on the nose' but I can't think of a single reason why it shouldn't be. Characters are lining up to sacrifice themselves, which is one criticism this gets - and I can see that: it's true. But for me, the good (visually, it is extraordinary) vastly outweighs the bad.
Three episodes into Series 12 and I love them all upto this point. Further progress imminent!
And for me this is one of the worst episodes of Doctor Who. I'd watch Timelash (which I like in all it's cheesy glory), Time Flight, and The Twin Dilemma in a marathon before attempting to watch that episode again. For me, Timelash had positives in the Borad and Paul Darrow, Time Flight at least had Anthony Ainley enjoying himself as Kalid and Twin Dilemma featured Colin trying his hardest to make his unlikeable Doctor likeable - good things amidst the not-so-good, but I really enjoyed most of Orphan 55. Funny, exciting and scary. Horses for courses and all that ...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2021 22:05:32 GMT
The Two Doctors. ... wow, that last episode is really grim, especially after the rather dark hilarity of the first two episodes. The only time I felt The Two Doctors 'got it wrong' was the fate of Oscar Botcherby. A kindly, comedic figure, he really didn't deserve what happened to him, or the way in which it happened. It just felt out of place and unnecessary, especially as it left the lovely, and quite innocent, Anita bereft. It wouldn't have harmed the story to at least have given them a happier ending. There's a very interesting moment in Leviathan in the Lost Stories which I think ended up being a direct response to Oscar's death in The Two Doctors. I won't say what it was for the benefit of any new listeners, but if you've heard the story, you probably know the one I'm talking about. In The Two Doctors, I think it could have been script-doctored with the sound of an arriving ambulance at the restaurant and, at the end, a phone call from the Doctors to Anita (after all, such an establishment would have business cards) to see whether or not Oscar had pulled through at the hospital.
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Post by number13 on Jan 10, 2021 22:41:45 GMT
The only time I felt The Two Doctors 'got it wrong' was the fate of Oscar Botcherby. A kindly, comedic figure, he really didn't deserve what happened to him, or the way in which it happened. It just felt out of place and unnecessary, especially as it left the lovely, and quite innocent, Anita bereft. It wouldn't have harmed the story to at least have given them a happier ending. There's a very interesting moment in Leviathan in the Lost Stories which I think ended up being a direct response to Oscar's death in The Two Doctors. I won't say what it was for the benefit of any new listeners, but if you've heard the story, you probably know the one I'm talking about. In The Two Doctors, I think it could have been script-doctored with the sound of an arriving ambulance at the restaurant and, at the end, a phone call from the Doctors to Anita (after all, such an establishment would have business cards) to see whether or not Oscar had pulled through at the hospital. Agree, it should have been another case of 'cover it with a line'. It's a dark story (and a humorous one too) and unusually violent even in that era which was itself unusually violent, but none of it offends me except for Oscar. His death seemed so - pointless - which I guess is the point, but pointless in story terms too and it spoiled the charm and humour of another fine Holmes creation.
As for Shockeye (mentioned in posts above) - the Doctor was right, 100%. CGI now would show the Androgum as the massive, monstrous being that Holmes describes in his novelisation and then we would realise the truth - there are no options for the Doctor, Shockeye will catch up with him and when he does, that's it. It would be like fighting an intelligent, armed, epicurean gorilla. The Doctor has to get in first with whatever means he has at his disposal, in this case, very primitive means. Shockeye wanted to eat Peri and Jamie with 'a piquant sauce', so I doubt the Doctor felt much remorse. Curiously, although the Fourth Doctor used exactly the same method, remotely applied, to kill Solon in 'The Brain of Morbius' (also by Robert Holmes of course) - I've never heard any criticism of him for it. And Solon was a pussycat by comparison!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2021 23:13:18 GMT
There's a very interesting moment in Leviathan in the Lost Stories which I think ended up being a direct response to Oscar's death in The Two Doctors. I won't say what it was for the benefit of any new listeners, but if you've heard the story, you probably know the one I'm talking about. In The Two Doctors, I think it could have been script-doctored with the sound of an arriving ambulance at the restaurant and, at the end, a phone call from the Doctors to Anita (after all, such an establishment would have business cards) to see whether or not Oscar had pulled through at the hospital. Agree, it should have been another case of 'cover it with a line'. It's a dark story (and a humorous one too) and unusually violent even in that era which was itself unusually violent, but none of it offends me except for Oscar. His death seemed so - pointless - which I guess is the point, but pointless in story terms too and it spoiled the charm and humour of another fine Holmes creation.
As for Shockeye (mentioned in posts above) - the Doctor was right, 100%. CGI now would show the Androgum as the massive, monstrous being that Holmes describes in his novelisation and then we would realise the truth - there are no options for the Doctor, Shockeye will catch up with him and when he does, that's it. It would be like fighting an intelligent, armed, epicurean gorilla. The Doctor has to get in first with whatever means he has at his disposal, in this case, very primitive means. Shockeye wanted to eat Peri and Jamie with 'a piquant sauce', so I doubt the Doctor felt much remorse. Curiously, although the Fourth Doctor used exactly the same method, remotely applied, to kill Solon in 'The Brain of Morbius' (also by Robert Holmes of course) - I've never heard any criticism of him for it. And Solon was a pussycat by comparison!
Agreed. Ironically, I think the scene could work as is with one crucial shift in emphasis. Change it so that Shockeye fights back. With his butcher's knife. Even with the Doctor behind him, the Androgum's face pinned by the butterfly net, he can still cause an inordinate amount of damage. As he keels backward, the blade slashes at the Doctor's arms, trying to free the fingers held tightly around his muzzle. There's blood everywhere, but his attacker is slowly, surely, almost inevitably keeling towards the ground. There's a final rasp and Shockeye's still. The Doctor puts down the cyanide-soaked mothballs, rests his back painfully against the tree. "Your just desserts..." And in the wilds of Spanish grass, he lets the cool, detached facade we're so familiar with slip. He's tired, angry and frightened. War briefly mounts between the three emotions until his body settles on tired. He seems relieved. That feels like the correct reaction to him. He limps up on one leg and slowly makes his way back towards the hacienda. No one in the house is aware of that moment -- and the Doctor's already hidden it beneath his good humour -- except us. We, the audience, know what happened out there. With a little tweak, a potentially objectionable scene becomes one of the most important moments in the Sixth Doctor's character.
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Jan 11, 2021 0:55:29 GMT
The Two Doctors. ... wow, that last episode is really grim, especially after the rather dark hilarity of the first two episodes. With one of the best commentaries ever. As I said before about it, if the eskimos have 50 words for snow, Jacqueline Pearce has 50 meanings for "Daaaaarling". In this commentary alone she uses it to mean "Thanks for the compliment", "I'm sorry I didn't know that person passed away", ""You're awfully brave" and many, many more. A good few years back when the Blake's 7 DVDs came out first, a mate of mine suggested we do shots whenever we heard "Daaaahling" on a Blake's 7 commentary and I swear there was one where she says it 5 times in 30 seconds - to start and finish a sentence with one in the middle for luck. Bags of fun - and she's the first to admit she's not got a clue what's going on in The Two Docs. Colin seems to struggle with the tone of it - wanting to defend it as dark humour but recognising it comes off more crass and misjudged, especially given Shockeyes rather horrible death that is 100% on The Doctor and our fave waiter copping it. Frazer Hines is a wee bit letchy when any young woman comes on screen...those comments don't age well in 2020. I haven’t listened to the commentary yet - that’s a thing I tend to do when I’m on my own - but the Blake’s 7 ones are a joy, especially with Ms Pearce.
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
Likes: 5,671
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Post by shutupbanks on Jan 11, 2021 1:02:17 GMT
The Two Doctors. ... wow, that last episode is really grim, especially after the rather dark hilarity of the first two episodes. The only time I felt The Two Doctors 'got it wrong' was the fate of Oscar Botcherby. A kindly, comedic figure, he really didn't deserve what happened to him, or the way in which it happened. It just felt out of place and unnecessary, especially as it left the lovely, and quite innocent, Anita bereft. It wouldn't have harmed the story to at least have given them a happier ending. The last episode just makes a sudden turn into darkness and it hurts the story, frankly. Oscar being killed leaves the viewer shocked, but the Doctor killing Shockeye also stuns - he has killed before but rarely so closely and the post-mortem one-liner really doesn’t suit the Doctor in any incarnation. There’s other bits - Shockeye wandering around with a Sontaran leg - that also really feel like they were put in in order to draw attention to the fact that they were trying to push an envelope that didn’t need pushing. I’ve also read interviews with Holmes where he’s said that he sometimes put deliberately shocking things into a script to draw attention away from something quite edgy and subversive that he really wanted kept in. The obvious shocker would then get taken out while what he wanted would be kept in. I wonder if that is what happened here.
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
Likes: 5,671
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Post by shutupbanks on Jan 11, 2021 1:09:06 GMT
There's a very interesting moment in Leviathan in the Lost Stories which I think ended up being a direct response to Oscar's death in The Two Doctors. I won't say what it was for the benefit of any new listeners, but if you've heard the story, you probably know the one I'm talking about. In The Two Doctors, I think it could have been script-doctored with the sound of an arriving ambulance at the restaurant and, at the end, a phone call from the Doctors to Anita (after all, such an establishment would have business cards) to see whether or not Oscar had pulled through at the hospital. Agree, it should have been another case of 'cover it with a line'. It's a dark story (and a humorous one too) and unusually violent even in that era which was itself unusually violent, but none of it offends me except for Oscar. His death seemed so - pointless - which I guess is the point, but pointless in story terms too and it spoiled the charm and humour of another fine Holmes creation.
As for Shockeye (mentioned in posts above) - the Doctor was right, 100%. CGI now would show the Androgum as the massive, monstrous being that Holmes describes in his novelisation and then we would realise the truth - there are no options for the Doctor, Shockeye will catch up with him and when he does, that's it. It would be like fighting an intelligent, armed, epicurean gorilla. The Doctor has to get in first with whatever means he has at his disposal, in this case, very primitive means. Shockeye wanted to eat Peri and Jamie with 'a piquant sauce', so I doubt the Doctor felt much remorse. Curiously, although the Fourth Doctor used exactly the same method, remotely applied, to kill Solon in 'The Brain of Morbius' (also by Robert Holmes of course) - I've never heard any criticism of him for it. And Solon was a pussycat by comparison!
Yeah, I don’t get the whole thing about guns being so bad: the Doctor has killed many times and usually from a distance, so I don’t know why they single them out. McCoy and Tennant are the worst offenders here, I think: McCoy decrying weapons as useless in Remembrance, then deploying the Hand of Omega to blow up a sun, while Tennant (in AoS/ RotC) slags off weapons in general then mentally tortures the Cybermen to death. Like I mentioned above, I was stunned by the killing of Shockeye but it was an unusual death rather than rare.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2021 12:33:46 GMT
The only time I felt The Two Doctors 'got it wrong' was the fate of Oscar Botcherby. A kindly, comedic figure, he really didn't deserve what happened to him, or the way in which it happened. It just felt out of place and unnecessary, especially as it left the lovely, and quite innocent, Anita bereft. It wouldn't have harmed the story to at least have given them a happier ending. The last episode just makes a sudden turn into darkness and it hurts the story, frankly. Oscar being killed leaves the viewer shocked, but the Doctor killing Shockeye also stuns - he has killed before but rarely so closely and the post-mortem one-liner really doesn’t suit the Doctor in any incarnation. There’s other bits - Shockeye wandering around with a Sontaran leg - that also really feel like they were put in in order to draw attention to the fact that they were trying to push an envelope that didn’t need pushing. I’ve also read interviews with Holmes where he’s said that he sometimes put deliberately shocking things into a script to draw attention away from something quite edgy and subversive that he really wanted kept in. The obvious shocker would then get taken out while what he wanted would be kept in. I wonder if that is what happened here. I'll be honest - I loved that Doctor Who was going slightly further in its depiction of shock/horror than it had in recent years. With no videos or DVDs around at the time, it put in mind distant memories of similarities with early Tom Baker stories, and I welcomed a return to that kind of thing. With the benefit of being able to see those stories all over again, I realise that Series 22 went further than Philip Hinchcliffe/Robert Holmes ever did, in certain ways. A close up of a Sontaran's singular, green-bloodied leg delighted me with its bloodthirsty-ness, the Doctor killing Shockeye didn't bother me - he'd killed before, many times, just not in such a 'hands on' manner - and Jacqueline Pearce lapping up spilled blood from the step brought out a cheer from the vampire lover in me! But as I said, that approach doesn't mean everyone has to die, just to reinforce the bloodbath. Oscar should have gone on, Anita with him, just to prove that there for some, there can be a happy ending.
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melkur
Chancellery Guard
Likes: 3,967
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Post by melkur on Jan 12, 2021 0:14:58 GMT
'Just finished watching 'The Talons Of Weng-Chiang' (I double-billed the last two episodes). I don't know if I could watch it multiple times in a short period of time, but I will never not adore this story... Time allowing, at some point I am considering doing a listen-through of the 'Jago & Litefoot' range, as it's been a while since I last gave any of those a listen. Not entirely sure which story I'm going to start after work tomorrow, but hey ho I had considered 'The Robots Of Death', but I'm probably going to leave it until March, a little closer to the release of 'The Robots 4'...
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Post by number13 on Jan 12, 2021 2:02:46 GMT
Orphan 55.
Nope. Still can't work out why this has a less than stellar reputation. Yep, it catalogues the future of the human race, something covered in other Doctor Who stories - but as Jodie says at the end, the events witnessed are just one of a myriad possibilities (which kind of covers any continuity issues), none of them fixed. Also, it's done well, and the revelation (and the final scene) is shocking. Perhaps The Doctor's message is a bit 'on the nose' but I can't think of a single reason why it shouldn't be. Characters are lining up to sacrifice themselves, which is one criticism this gets - and I can see that: it's true. But for me, the good (visually, it is extraordinary) vastly outweighs the bad.
Three episodes into Series 12 and I love them all upto this point. Further progress imminent!
And for me this is one of the worst episodes of Doctor Who. I'd watch Timelash (which I like in all it's cheesy glory), Time Flight, and The Twin Dilemma in a marathon before attempting to watch that episode again. I think I've said this before... but I'd agree IF I took the episode seriously. But as it is, I'm sure it's a brilliant, deadpan spoof, like 'Airplane' or 'The Naked Gun.' I mean, it has to be, surely? ('Don't call me Shirley'. )
Otherwise it would be the worst episode ever!
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Post by johnhurtdoctor on Jan 13, 2021 18:52:23 GMT
Attack of the Cybermen with the exclusive Cutaway Comics commentary track featuring Eric Saward (Script Editor), David Banks (Cyber Leader) and Justin Johnson (Moderator).
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
Likes: 5,671
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Post by shutupbanks on Jan 14, 2021 1:57:46 GMT
The Infinite Quest. I turned this one off about 15 minutes in. Sound levels were awful, the animation was very static, and the story turned into a very obvious “find the plot coupons” mess very quickly.
Time Of The Doctor. Never really enjoyed this one as a story but I love it for what it illuminates about the strength of Moffat’s writing. He makes an effort to tie up the loose ends of Eleven’s run, but he also sets up scenes that will be echoed in future episodes (Clara helping the Doctor with the cracker, for example). Watching from the advantage of hindsight, he is clearly looking at stories as being studied and rewatched into the future (not out of vanity but as a fan - could we call that fanity? I’m definitely for it, which makes me pro-fanity) and is taking care that issues get addressed and that mysteries are solved or left hanging for the future. Also, I only just realised on this rewatch that Clara is actually naked well into Deep Breath!
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Post by polly on Jan 14, 2021 6:40:38 GMT
After a brief break, Mr Polly and I are cracking on to the final classic season with Curse of Fenric. A+, top-tier story. A contender for Seven's best TV outing. I just wish the DVD's special/extended edition was available for the individual episodes and not just the omnibus version. I don't usually have time to watch an entire story straight through and it sucks to miss out on the extra footage.
Some stories have the special edition tweaks available on the separate episodes, some are omnibus-only. Do we know why they chose which stories got which options? Because it seems random to me.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2021 7:43:51 GMT
The last episode just makes a sudden turn into darkness and it hurts the story, frankly. Oscar being killed leaves the viewer shocked, but the Doctor killing Shockeye also stuns - he has killed before but rarely so closely and the post-mortem one-liner really doesn’t suit the Doctor in any incarnation. There’s other bits - Shockeye wandering around with a Sontaran leg - that also really feel like they were put in in order to draw attention to the fact that they were trying to push an envelope that didn’t need pushing. I’ve also read interviews with Holmes where he’s said that he sometimes put deliberately shocking things into a script to draw attention away from something quite edgy and subversive that he really wanted kept in. The obvious shocker would then get taken out while what he wanted would be kept in. I wonder if that is what happened here. I'll be honest - I loved that Doctor Who was going slightly further in its depiction of shock/horror than it had in recent years. With no videos or DVDs around at the time, it put in mind distant memories of similarities with early Tom Baker stories, and I welcomed a return to that kind of thing. With the benefit of being able to see those stories all over again, I realise that Series 22 went further than Philip Hinchcliffe/Robert Holmes ever did, in certain ways. A close up of a Sontaran's singular, green-bloodied leg delighted me with its bloodthirsty-ness, the Doctor killing Shockeye didn't bother me - he'd killed before, many times, just not in such a 'hands on' manner - and Jacqueline Pearce lapping up spilled blood from the step brought out a cheer from the vampire lover in me! But as I said, that approach doesn't mean everyone has to die, just to reinforce the bloodbath. Oscar should have gone on, Anita with him, just to prove that there for some, there can be a happy ending.
A good rule of thumb typically passed around for evoking the atmosphere of televised Who is never go further than the Target novelisations. Funny thing, though... Those books actually went a bit further than tend to be given credit for and you can put that down to Ian Marter of all people. Good ol' Harry Sullivan. His adaptations, starting from '77 onwards, are quite marvellous. They've a richness and texture all their own from the Ark to Ribos, but they didn't shy away from the violence. If anything, they amplified it to Hammer levels. Robespierre's maiming in The Reign of Terror comes with "blood, teeth and fragments of jawbone [spurting] out between his clawing fingers." When Packer strikes Jamie across the face in The Invasion, he ends up bleeding quite profusely from the nose. There are moments where it can get incredibly theatrical, but it's never ill-fittingly so. Marter's novelisations were all about being heavy on the senses. The cricket skitter of a Wirrin or the rasping stink of a Cyberleader. Robert Holmes's single entry is much in the same ballpark. He somehow managed to amplify what he put in The Two Doctors (e.g. the duty watch officer is injected with acid, not just poison by Chessene). What's interesting to me is you go across to Philip Hinchcliffe doing Masque, Marinus and The Seeds of Doom... It's all quite muted by comparison. It certainly doesn't shy away from it, but the emphasis is less on the grandiosity of the spectacle itself (the grand-guignol) and more on the horror of the characters' reaction to it. That's much closer to how Terrance Dicks did shock-horror than the producer's first script editor. It's an interesting contrast.
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
Likes: 5,671
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Post by shutupbanks on Jan 14, 2021 14:14:53 GMT
An Adventure In Time And Space.
We were really spoiled for the Fiftieth. Just wonderful.
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melkur
Chancellery Guard
Likes: 3,967
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Post by melkur on Jan 16, 2021 2:20:51 GMT
Over the past couple of evenings I've been watching 'Horror Of Fang Rock'. Whilst I've never really been sold on the part 1 cliff-hanger, this is a story that I've always enjoyed & would happily watch once or twice a year if I were ever in the 'mood' for it...
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Post by polly on Jan 19, 2021 6:15:48 GMT
Battlefield - Farewell, Brigadier...
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