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Post by themeddlingmonk on Mar 8, 2019 11:57:09 GMT
The Big Blue Book definitely appears to be VNA era rather than NABS era. I don’t think there’s anything to help place it though outside of that. Unless there’s a VNA where the Doctor goes on a solo trip to Kent.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2019 11:42:13 GMT
The Big Blue Book definitely appears to be VNA era rather than NABS era. I don’t think there’s anything to help place it though outside of that. Unless there’s a VNA where the Doctor goes on a solo trip to Kent. Smithwood Manor's in Kent, so it's possible it might take place not long before Warlock. He sends Benny on to New York solo, while he and Ace stay behind on Allen Road to do some research on a new street drug with unusual properties. |
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Mar 9, 2019 12:56:49 GMT
The Big Blue Book definitely appears to be VNA era rather than NABS era. I don’t think there’s anything to help place it though outside of that. Unless there’s a VNA where the Doctor goes on a solo trip to Kent. Smithwood Manor's in Kent, so it's possible it might take place not long before Warlock. He sends Benny on to New York solo, while he and Ace stay behind on Allen Road to do some research on a new street drug with unusual properties. Specifically he goes to Kent by train to “see a woman about a God” and leaves Benny and Ace in early 90s Liverpool with the TARDIS. Also there’s actually a reference that could potentially place it in the NABS era. There’s a reference to Egyptology and Martian Pyramids, which could suggest its after Triumph of Sutekh but it could equally just be Ace teasing Benny about her specialist archaeological subject. Benny feels like she should come early on, as she doesn’t even know that the TARDIS is female and Ace seems to have trouble communicating with the TARDIS and doesn’t even have a key, which is quite a stretch from Ace actively piloting the TARDIS in NABS. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2019 23:07:00 GMT
Smithwood Manor's in Kent, so it's possible it might take place not long before Warlock. He sends Benny on to New York solo, while he and Ace stay behind on Allen Road to do some research on a new street drug with unusual properties. Specifically he goes to Kent by train to “see a woman about a God” and leaves Benny and Ace in early 90s Liverpool with the TARDIS. Also there’s actually a reference that could potentially place it in the NABS era. There’s a reference to Egyptology and Martian Pyramids, which could suggest its after Triumph of Sutekh but it could equally just be Ace teasing Benny about her specialist archaeological subject. Benny feels like she should come early on, as she doesn’t even know that the TARDIS is female and Ace seems to have trouble communicating with the TARDIS and doesn’t even have a key, which is quite a stretch from Ace actively piloting the TARDIS in NABS. Particularly in the context of later NAs where Ace is on better terms with the new Ship than the Doctor. Hmm... The lack of a TARDIS key is definitely odd, makes me think it might take place not long after Lucifer Rising. Has to be before Birthright, though, as both Benny and Ace have access to the TARDIS in that story. Maybe just before White Darkness? It wouldn't be unusual to think the Doctor wanted a bit of time to himself after what happened on Lucifer and Belial (in an ending that adds a whole new meaning to the phrase "getting under the skin").
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Mar 10, 2019 1:06:42 GMT
The biggest issue with that is probably Ace’s characterisation. She very much acts like she did on tv and that seems very jarring against the bitter military Ace that doesn’t along with the Doctor shortly after her return.
There is a line however that suggests she’s had military training, but it seems like it would fit better at a later point where Ace has mellowed again.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2019 1:19:38 GMT
Yeah, it's definitely tricky. Maybe it's just after No Future when everything's all settled down and it's all out in the open. How is she with Benny? Are they getting along or is there a bit of friction there?
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Mar 10, 2019 1:23:04 GMT
Yeah, it's definitely tricky. Maybe it's just after No Future when everything's all settled down and it's all out in the open. How is she with Benny? Are they getting along or is there a bit of friction there? They tease each other, but they seem pretty close. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2019 1:39:02 GMT
Yeah, it's definitely tricky. Maybe it's just after No Future when everything's all settled down and it's all out in the open. How is she with Benny? Are they getting along or is there a bit of friction there? They tease each other, but they seem pretty close. Sounds definitely like they're post-Alternate Universe. I'd go for after No Future. Maybe she lost her key in all the excitement and the TARDIS being less than communicative is down to Ace's gambit in that story. |
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Mar 10, 2019 1:47:30 GMT
They tease each other, but they seem pretty close. Sounds definitely like they're post-Alternate Universe. I'd go for after No Future. Maybe she lost her key in all the excitement and the TARDIS being less than communicative is down to Ace's gambit in that story. Alternatively it was hinted that the Doctor knew exactly what had gone on in his absence so perhaps he and the TARDIS decided it would be best if Ace and Benny dealt with it themselves. i was pretty much just thinking it should go in the same gap as Shadow of the Scourge and The Dark Flame. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2019 2:00:53 GMT
Sounds definitely like they're post-Alternate Universe. I'd go for after No Future. Maybe she lost her key in all the excitement and the TARDIS being less than communicative is down to Ace's gambit in that story. Alternatively it was hinted that the Doctor knew exactly what had gone on in his absence so perhaps he and the TARDIS decided it would be best if Ace and Benny dealt with it themselves. i was pretty much just thinking it should go in the same gap as Shadow of the Scourge and The Dark Flame. Occam's razor, fair. It'd have to be before Scourge, though, as she has her key there. Checking up on a local god sounds pretty part-and-parcel of the NA's MO by All-Consuming Fire. |
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Mar 10, 2019 12:34:30 GMT
The key situation is sort of similar to in the Main Range in that Ace doesn’t have her own key but knows where to find the spare. Only in this instance the spare wasn’t there.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2019 2:01:42 GMT
The key situation is sort of similar to in the Main Range in that Ace doesn’t have her own key but knows where to find the spare. Only in this instance the spare wasn’t there. It's funny how we don't really think about the keys so much in storytelling terms. Either someone can get into the TARDIS or they can't, and that's taken as writ. That's interesting.
In the books... Well, her original key was given to the villain of No Future as part of her betrayal against the Doctor. It was the turning point that allowed the TARDIS to be stolen. After that point, the Doctor keeps a key to himself. No spares. It wasn't uncommon for Ace or Benny to fish it out from his coatpocket when he was unconscious. I remember Parasite assuming that they could get into the TARDIS on their own by that point, so after Falls the Shadow (Ace nicks the key from his pocket there) maybe he knocked a spare into shape? I relistened to Scourge and it could easily go either way, she just asks: "Where did [she] put the key?"
Theoretically, the timeline might look something like this: He makes up a brand new spare. Shows Ace where it is... And then takes it away when she needs it, that's charming. 
The only bit that makes me scratch my head is Ace having trouble communicating with the TARDIS. At this point, it's not "our" TARDIS, so to speak, but another taken from a dead parallel Doctor. Ace assisted in its rebirth and it's grown quite fond of her since then. Enough that she can pilot it better than the Doctor can. He doesn't get his TARDIS, the one we're familiar with, back until Benny's wedding. Some thirty(?!) or so stories later. |
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Mar 11, 2019 10:30:12 GMT
The key situation is sort of similar to in the Main Range in that Ace doesn’t have her own key but knows where to find the spare. Only in this instance the spare wasn’t there. It's funny how we don't really think about the keys so much in storytelling terms. Either someone can get into the TARDIS or they can't, and that's taken as writ. That's interesting.
In the books... Well, her original key was given to the villain of No Future as part of her betrayal against the Doctor. It was the turning point that allowed the TARDIS to be stolen. After that point, the Doctor keeps a key to himself. No spares. It wasn't uncommon for Ace or Benny to fish it out from his coatpocket when he was unconscious. I remember Parasite assuming that they could get into the TARDIS on their own by that point, so after Falls the Shadow (Ace nicks the key from his pocket there) maybe he knocked a spare into shape? I relistened to Scourge and it could easily go either way, she just asks: "Where did [she] put the key?"
Theoretically, the timeline might look something like this: He makes up a brand new spare. Shows Ace where it is... And then takes it away when she needs it, that's charming.
The only bit that makes me scratch my head is Ace having trouble communicating with the TARDIS. At this point, it's not "our" TARDIS, so to speak, but another taken from a dead parallel Doctor. Ace assisted in its rebirth and it's grown quite fond of her since then. Enough that she can pilot it better than the Doctor can. He doesn't get his TARDIS, the one we're familiar with, back until Benny's wedding. Some thirty(?!) or so stories later. To be fair, Ace just says “No spare key” so that could actually be interpreted as her acknowledging that there’s only one key rather than having looked for the spare and having failed to find it. As for Ace’s relationship with the TARDIS, she just appears to be frustrated by it because it won’t let her in or seem to give her any hint of where the Doctor’s gone. It’s not necessarily a plot point that makes a massive difference. Though I forgot that the TARDIS was the alternate universe one by this point, which could explain why Benny was unsure of its gender. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2019 11:48:42 GMT
It's funny how we don't really think about the keys so much in storytelling terms. Either someone can get into the TARDIS or they can't, and that's taken as writ. That's interesting.
In the books... Well, her original key was given to the villain of No Future as part of her betrayal against the Doctor. It was the turning point that allowed the TARDIS to be stolen. After that point, the Doctor keeps a key to himself. No spares. It wasn't uncommon for Ace or Benny to fish it out from his coatpocket when he was unconscious. I remember Parasite assuming that they could get into the TARDIS on their own by that point, so after Falls the Shadow (Ace nicks the key from his pocket there) maybe he knocked a spare into shape? I relistened to Scourge and it could easily go either way, she just asks: "Where did [she] put the key?"
Theoretically, the timeline might look something like this: He makes up a brand new spare. Shows Ace where it is... And then takes it away when she needs it, that's charming.
The only bit that makes me scratch my head is Ace having trouble communicating with the TARDIS. At this point, it's not "our" TARDIS, so to speak, but another taken from a dead parallel Doctor. Ace assisted in its rebirth and it's grown quite fond of her since then. Enough that she can pilot it better than the Doctor can. He doesn't get his TARDIS, the one we're familiar with, back until Benny's wedding. Some thirty(?!) or so stories later. To be fair, Ace just says “No spare key” so that could actually be interpreted as her acknowledging that there’s only one key rather than having looked for the spare and having failed to find it. As for Ace’s relationship with the TARDIS, she just appears to be frustrated by it because it won’t let her in or seem to give her any hint of where the Doctor’s gone. It’s not necessarily a plot point that makes a massive difference. Though I forgot that the TARDIS was the alternate universe one by this point, which could explain why Benny was unsure of its gender. There's a metric tonne of lore there, isn't there? I didn't notice it until it started popping back into my memory. That all sounds as though it clicks together very snugly (blessed be soft continu'ty).
This has been rather fun.  I always enjoy teasing out how everything fits together. There's something really satisfying about being able to set up a tapestry and watch the characters grow over the course of their stories. The Seventh Doctor, in particular, for how drastically he evolved over the course of the 1990s. And there's a particular appeal to there being no definitive, mathematical answer to the exercise. It can be anyone's game. Thanks for being a good sport about it, I appreciate it. |
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Post by Digi on Apr 14, 2019 12:21:31 GMT
No exact placement just yet, but the latest podcast (04/14), it's stated that the upcoming Mags trilogy is much later in the Seventh Doctor's life, where he feels like he's getting old and needs to tidy up some loose ends.
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Apr 14, 2019 19:26:02 GMT
No exact placement just yet, but the latest podcast (04/14), it's stated that the upcoming Mags trilogy is much later in the Seventh Doctor's life, where he feels like he's getting old and needs to tidy up some loose ends. He’s doing the same thing in the second Klein Trilogy I believe. So it could just be release order for the Tweed Seven strand despite the fact he doesn’t seem to be in Tweed. I was expecting it to be after Ace but before the TV movie era to be honest. |
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Post by sherlock on Apr 15, 2019 12:03:18 GMT
No exact placement just yet, but the latest podcast (04/14), it's stated that the upcoming Mags trilogy is much later in the Seventh Doctor's life, where he feels like he's getting old and needs to tidy up some loose ends. Might be the same time period as the first Klein trilogy then, where he appears to be slightly older and tying up loose ends, but is not yet wearing his TV Movie attire (based on the covers). |
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Apr 15, 2019 18:39:11 GMT
No exact placement just yet, but the latest podcast (04/14), it's stated that the upcoming Mags trilogy is much later in the Seventh Doctor's life, where he feels like he's getting old and needs to tidy up some loose ends. Might be the same time period as the first Klein trilogy then, where he appears to be slightly older and tying up loose ends, but is not yet wearing his TV Movie attire (based on the covers). The problem with Seven is that he pretty regularly rotates through costumes after a point. And like the first Klein Trilogy was intended to be in release order with the other solo era Seventh Doctor Stories. So even then, you can never be sure that it’s meant to be set earlier just because he looks younger on the cover. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2019 10:47:24 GMT
Might be the same time period as the first Klein trilogy then, where he appears to be slightly older and tying up loose ends, but is not yet wearing his TV Movie attire (based on the covers). The problem with Seven is that he pretty regularly rotates through costumes after a point. And like the first Klein Trilogy was intended to be in release order with the other solo era Seventh Doctor Stories. So even then, you can never be sure that it’s meant to be set earlier just because he looks younger on the cover. A good example of this happening purely by accident is Nightshade. It's probably serendipity, but the Seventh Doctor's outfit there bares a striking resemblance to the one he'd don by the time of the TV Movie.
It's tricky. Personally, I like to go by how tired he appears in the narrative. A sliding scale with The Shadow Heart (bouncy, almost Season 24-ish) on one side and Valhalla (pseudo-retired NA!Doc) on the other. As an example, A Thousand Tiny Wings and its peers strikes me as slap-bang in the middle, probably NA heydays. He's not travelling with companions "for the moment" and seems to have come back to Klein almost provisionally. He feels as he does in those books, come to parole Klein and see whether or not she can be redeemed. The structure of The Architects of History even feels like a surrepticious homage to the anthology-like nature of later novels in the range with Klein centre stage.
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Apr 16, 2019 23:18:09 GMT
I always kind of liked the idea that the Doctor got so desperate for a Companion after being turned down so many times in his solo adventures that he tracked Klein down.
Though honestly I’m not even sure myself how I would structure Seven’s timeline anymore.
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I always enjoy teasing out how everything fits together. There's something really satisfying about being able to set up a tapestry and watch the characters grow over the course of their stories. The Seventh Doctor, in particular, for how drastically he evolved over the course of the 1990s. And there's a particular appeal to there being no definitive, mathematical answer to the exercise. It can be anyone's game. Thanks for being a good sport about it, I appreciate it.
