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Post by J.A. Prentice on Apr 17, 2019 6:06:32 GMT
The trouble is that the NAs create a fairly seamless Survival-to-TV Movie sequence for Seven. I used to think that putting most of the audios (including Hex) after Lungbarrow could work with a little squinting, but Death in the Family clearly portrays Ace and Hex's Seven as a younger version of him, which doesn't mesh with him having gone through the NAs. But Ace seems much less mature in the early NAs and I have difficulty seeing them being years after Survival. And we can't just throw our hands up in the air and say different timelines because A. It's boring and B. Big Finish is pretty dependent on Benny and the NAs happening at some point.
I think he's the only Doctor where I'd actually like to see Big Finish give us an indication of his timeline in an audio. At least where the NA, Hex, and Klein/solo stuff happen relative to each other.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2019 7:24:58 GMT
The trouble is that the NAs create a fairly seamless Survival-to-TV Movie sequence for Seven. I used to think that putting most of the audios (including Hex) after Lungbarrow could work with a little squinting, but Death in the Family clearly portrays Ace and Hex's Seven as a younger version of him, which doesn't mesh with him having gone through the NAs. But Ace seems much less mature in the early NAs and I have difficulty seeing them being years after Survival. And we can't just throw our hands up in the air and say different timelines because A. It's boring and B. Big Finish is pretty dependent on Benny and the NAs happening at some point. I think he's the only Doctor where I'd actually like to see Big Finish give us an indication of his timeline in an audio. At least where the NA, Hex, and Klein/solo stuff happen relative to each other. Yeah. I'm not sure how it formed, might've been spontaneously, but I love the idea of a "season" post-Lungbarrow and pre-Enemy Within. Romana gives Seven the task of recovering the Master's ashes from Skaro after some needling from the CIA. He leaves in a good humour, allows his newly refitted TARDIS to wander under her own volition leading into Excelis Decays. I think the consequences there made him reevaluate his trip to Skaro. He decides to dither a little, falling into old habits, but there's something about his behaviour that keeps turning companions away. Valhalla, Frozen Time, The Death Collectors and so on. Eventually, he seeks out Klein and other former companions to fill the gap (Klein circa Persuasion, Raine circa Dominion), but he's running out of excuses.
Once upon a time, the final progression could've been: Kingdom of Silver -> Return of the Daleks -> Project: Lazarus (he thinks about going home) -> Master (he vows to save his old friend) -> TV Movie.
Nowadays, I dunno. Ground Zero's easily taken care of as an Unbound thanks to The Glorious Dead, but the others... There's a chunk devoted to Ace as a CIA agent that feels post-Lungbarrow. Deeply ironic too, given that the Agency, erm, killed her for twenty minutes. I wonder if Romana steered her there as a way of reminding the CIA that she still remembers their coup attempt? The Ace/Hex stories could occupy that gap before Timewyrm: Genesys's memory wipe. It's a fudge, definitely, but it could be plausible. Either that or between Timewyrm and Cat's Cradle maybe? A few of the Cartmel/Abnett comic stories set there feel halfway between their TV and NA portrayals.
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Apr 17, 2019 9:51:03 GMT
Well in The Monsters of Gokroth, The Doctor mentions the thing about tying up lose ends and attributes it to him getting old, and then Mags tells him he isn’t old, suggesting he doesn’t look much different to how he did in Season 25, and that the covers are accurate.
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Post by sherlock on Apr 17, 2019 10:09:19 GMT
The trouble is that the NAs create a fairly seamless Survival-to-TV Movie sequence for Seven. I used to think that putting most of the audios (including Hex) after Lungbarrow could work with a little squinting, but Death in the Family clearly portrays Ace and Hex's Seven as a younger version of him, which doesn't mesh with him having gone through the NAs. But Ace seems much less mature in the early NAs and I have difficulty seeing them being years after Survival. And we can't just throw our hands up in the air and say different timelines because A. It's boring and B. Big Finish is pretty dependent on Benny and the NAs happening at some point. I think he's the only Doctor where I'd actually like to see Big Finish give us an indication of his timeline in an audio. At least where the NA, Hex, and Klein/solo stuff happen relative to each other. It is kinda annoying that in behind the scenes they never seem to address the timeline. In Lurkers at Sunlight’s Edge behind the scenes even Sophie Aldred admits to not being sure where it is for Ace. In the Love and War bts they even wonder where it fits in relation to Hex stories and just collectively shrug. Atm I keep a timeline like this (I tend to just stick to TV + Big Finish): Survival
Season 27 Lost Stories The Fearmonger- The Rapture
Ace and Hex Ace and Mel Novel Adaptations (including the sidesteps and last year’s New Adventures) ’Tying up loose ends’, basically where 7 is not obviously in Movie attire but is alone and bit older ( Excelis Decays, The Death Collectors, first Klein trilogy, The Shadow Heart, New Adventures of Bernice Summerfield, Diary of River Song 2)
Nearing the End (any story featuring him in TV Movie attire) |
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Apr 17, 2019 11:14:28 GMT
{Spoilers for The Monsters of Gokroth }
By the end, the Doctor reveals that Ace is “somewhere else” and has been for some time. Specifically the Doctor is beginning to feel old, but still feels up for “new friends and new adventures” which is why he decided to start resolving unfinished business and track down Mags.
I think this may well be best placed between Ace and Mel leaving and the first Klein Trilogy. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2019 12:59:47 GMT
The trouble is that the NAs create a fairly seamless Survival-to-TV Movie sequence for Seven. I used to think that putting most of the audios (including Hex) after Lungbarrow could work with a little squinting, but Death in the Family clearly portrays Ace and Hex's Seven as a younger version of him, which doesn't mesh with him having gone through the NAs. But Ace seems much less mature in the early NAs and I have difficulty seeing them being years after Survival. And we can't just throw our hands up in the air and say different timelines because A. It's boring and B. Big Finish is pretty dependent on Benny and the NAs happening at some point. I think he's the only Doctor where I'd actually like to see Big Finish give us an indication of his timeline in an audio. At least where the NA, Hex, and Klein/solo stuff happen relative to each other. Atm I keep a timeline like this (I tend to just stick to TV + Big Finish): Survival
Season 27 Lost Stories The Fearmonger- The Rapture
Ace and Hex Ace and Mel Novel Adaptations (including the sidesteps and last year’s New Adventures) ’Tying up loose ends’, basically where 7 is not obviously in Movie attire but is alone and bit older ( Excelis Decays, The Death Collectors, first Klein trilogy, The Shadow Heart, New Adventures of Bernice Summerfield, Diary of River Song 2)
Nearing the End (any story featuring him in TV Movie attire)I think the issue nowadays with the Seventh Doctor's timeline is that it can't be compartmentalised like the Eighth or Sixth Doctor's can. You can follow Charley and Lucie without knowing about Izzy and Destrii. You can join Peri and Frobisher without knowing anything about Flip and Constance. Each medium is largely self-contained, but with Seven, there has to be an acknowledgement of the elephant in the room. At some point, the New Adventures had to occur. If not all of them then at least a shortlist, say... It's a bit like the Valeyard being one of those longstanding hush-hush taboos of the 1990s. Eventually, we had to acknowledge the Valeyard (as mid-90s Who did, with gusto). |
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Apr 17, 2019 15:24:56 GMT
What would be lovely is a Peri and the Piscon Paradox situation where the Doctor and Ace got their timeline fractured at some stage after Survival and so different aspects of them ended up living completely different lives until eventually at some stage their timeline is fixed and there’s just the one Doctor and Ace again, with all the memories of their selves but having no clue in which order any of it happened because technically it all ran parallel. But of course that’s a load of fanjodrell, but it’d work better than trying to reconcile everything at least.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2019 1:20:37 GMT
What would be lovely is a Peri and the Piscon Paradox situation where the Doctor and Ace got their timeline fractured at some stage after Survival and so different aspects of them ended up living completely different lives until eventually at some stage their timeline is fixed and there’s just the one Doctor and Ace again, with all the memories of their selves but having no clue in which order any of it happened because technically it all ran parallel. But of course that’s a load of fanjodrell, but it’d work better than trying to reconcile everything at least. Ah, well, a load of fanjodrell's why we're on the continuity page.  Everyone's had a really good theory, I'm just griping at the status quo a little (just before I went to sleep as it turned out). 
The multiple Doctors concept isn't as far-fetched as it might appear. There is a precedent. Something is very much up with regards to Braxiatel's timeline between Bernice Summerfield and Gallifrey. Same incarnation, but two differing versions prowling around our universe. He's been actively changing the pasts of people he knows as well. Time's Champion has the Sixth Doctor rewrite his own death to what happens in Spiral Scratch, so... *taps fingers* Maybe brothers act alike in this instance?
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Apr 18, 2019 13:30:57 GMT
Another potentional theory is that in the original timeline, which I’ve posted in much more detail on Gallifrey Base is that in the original timeline, the Doctor erases Ace’s memories of Hex following Gods and Monsters (instead of the scene in Afterlife where he offers and she refuses) and so basically goes full VNA bastard and restores her memories to just after a Survival. This is where the VNAs happen.
But then this nasty VNA Dark Seven regrets his actions by the time he’s alone and on his way to pick the Master remains and so when he gets pulled into the events of A Death in the Family, he warns his past self about what his manipulative ways will lead to. Of course he doesn’t listen and continues his manipulations until we get to Gods and Monsters. But he’s always had his future self’s warning at the back of his mind. So this time around he feels guilty, and while he still offers to wipe Ace’s memory, he respects that she doesn’t want that, and he instead attempts to make amends. By Signs and Wonders they’ve repaired their relationship and he’s moving away from his manipulations. Ace has a vision of multiple futures and this is because Time is in flux due to the Doctor moving away from his original path.
He now intends to keep less secrets from Ace, lets her be more involved and begins teaching her to fly the TARDIS. He also arranges for the TARDIS to track down Mel because after all, he sent her away in the first place because he felt her strict moral code would get in the way of his plans, so who better to keep him and Ace on the right path? He pretty much says as much in Maker of Demons.
Eventually Mel will leave and the Doctor and Ace will move into New Adventures territory. However things happen differently this time and the Novel Adaptations are the new timeline version of the VNAs. Ace is less bitter and angsty because the Doctor was less manipulative. Plus other changes that make it more Main Range friendly. Eventually then, the New Adventures era passes and the Doctor now travels alone, leading into all the other solo Travels Big Finish have crafted for him.
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Post by sherlock on Jul 20, 2019 10:06:37 GMT
The Split Infinitive seems to take place during the TV era. It’s probably after The Assassination Games, given how familiar the Doctor and Ace are with the Counter-Measures team.
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Post by Whovitt on Jul 20, 2019 10:23:45 GMT
The Split Infinitive seems to take place during the TV era. It’s probably after The Assassination Games, given how familiar the Doctor and Ace are with the Counter-Measures team. Kinsella also mentions having met Ace, so it must be after The Assassination Games  |
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Post by Tim Bradley on Aug 19, 2019 19:25:53 GMT
{Spoilers for The Monsters of Gokroth }
By the end, the Doctor reveals that Ace is “somewhere else” and has been for some time. Specifically the Doctor is beginning to feel old, but still feels up for “new friends and new adventures” which is why he decided to start resolving unfinished business and track down Mags.
I think this may well be best placed between Ace and Mel leaving and the first Klein Trilogy. Hi meddlingmonk.
I've reshuffled the Mags trilogy at your suggestion between Ace and Mel and the first Klein trilogy.
Tim. |
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Jan 21, 2020 21:16:20 GMT
The placement for Dark Universe is pretty straight forward. Right before his appearance in The Eleven.
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Jan 22, 2020 0:06:26 GMT
The placement for Dark Universe is pretty straight forward. Right before his appearance in The Eleven. Actually to be exact, The Eleven takes place between the last two scenes of Dark Universe. In fact, a cutdown version of the scene from The Eleven is played in Dark Universe, but cut off before the Doctor is contacted by Padrac, they then cut to the final scene with Ace instead. |
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Jan 26, 2020 13:48:59 GMT
Just a few notes about the Older Seven era
Notre Dame Du Temps goes immediately after Lungbarrow, rather than shortly before the TV Movie.
The Eight Doctors is difficult to place, as it has the Doctor decide to to change the TARDIS interior to the Victorian Parlour design, suggesting that it’s before Excelis Decays and he’s wearing his Season 26 costume, but he’s told by The Eighth Doctor that he’s going to die soon, which suggests it’s shortly before the TV Movie.
The Tramp's Story references Excelis Decays, Project: Twilight and Master in that order, and seems to be set shortly after them as the Doctor is melancholic about failing to save people in those stories, and he’s glad to be able to save someone in this story.
The Doctor spends several years travelling with Cat prior to Companion Piece, so I’d maybe set it a bit earlier than where it currently sits on the timeline. It was released in December 2003, so I’d maybe put it between Master and Valhalla. Especially seeing as The Tramp's Story also sees him take on another companion of several years.
Obviously we all know Ground Zero doesn’t really make any sense except in its own context and probably never will unless some writers work in a nifty retcon or something.
The Doctor in Persuasion claims that he’s nearing the end of his life and is trying to tie up loose ends and get rid of evil in the universe because he fears his next incarnation won’t be go to the same lengths as him. Klein notes that this attitude is very different to the one he had in Dominion. So I would at Persuasion as the beginning of the end of the end of the Seventh Doctor.
Lungbarrow
Notre Dame Du Temps
Excelis Decays
Project: Lazarus
Master
The Tramp's Story
Companion Piece
Valhalla
Frozen Time
The Death Collectors
Spider's Shadow
Twilight's End
Kingdom of Silver
UNIT: Dominion
The Shadow Heart
Persuasion
Starlight Robbery
Daleks Among Us
The Two Doctors
Warlock's Cross
Dark Universe / The Eleven
Doctor Who: The Movie
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Post by mark687 on Jan 26, 2020 14:11:57 GMT
Just a few notes about the Older Seven era Notre Dame Du Temps goes immediately after Lungbarrow, rather than shortly before the TV Movie. The Eight Doctors is difficult to place, as it has the Doctor decide to to change the TARDIS interior to the Victorian Parlour design, suggesting that it’s before Excelis Decays and he’s wearing his Season 26 costume, but he’s told by The Eighth Doctor that he’s going to die soon, which suggests it’s shortly before the TV Movie. The Tramp's Story references Excelis Decays, Project: Twilight and Master in that order, and seems to be set shortly after them as the Doctor is melancholic about failing to save people in those stories, and he’s glad to be able to save someone in this story. The Doctor spends several years travelling with Cat prior to Companion Piece, so I’d maybe set it a bit earlier than where it currently sits on the timeline. It was released in December 2003, so I’d maybe put it between Master and Valhalla. Especially seeing as The Tramp's Story also sees him take on another companion of several years. Obviously we all know Ground Zero doesn’t really make any sense except in its own context and probably never will unless some writers work in a nifty retcon or something. The Doctor in Persuasion claims that he’s nearing the end of his life and is trying to tie up loose ends and get rid of evil in the universe because he fears his next incarnation won’t be go to the same lengths as him. Klein notes that this attitude is very different to the one he had in Dominion. So I would at Persuasion as the beginning of the end of the end of the Seventh Doctor. Lungbarrow Notre Dame Du Temps Excelis Decays Project: Lazarus Master The Tramp's Story Companion Piece Valhalla Frozen Time The Death Collectors Spider's Shadow Twilight's End Kingdom of Silver UNIT: Dominion The Shadow Heart Persuasion Starlight Robbery Daleks Among Us The Two Doctors Masters Warlock's Cross Dark Universe / The Eleven Doctor Who: The Movie Unless we're told otherwise I'm thinking from the Doctor's POV (despite Cover Art) Physic Circus and Subterfuge come after Warlock Cross but Before Dark Universe. Regards mark687 |
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Post by xlozdob on Jan 26, 2020 14:30:35 GMT
Just a few notes about the Older Seven era Notre Dame Du Temps goes immediately after Lungbarrow, rather than shortly before the TV Movie. The Eight Doctors is difficult to place, as it has the Doctor decide to to change the TARDIS interior to the Victorian Parlour design, suggesting that it’s before Excelis Decays and he’s wearing his Season 26 costume, but he’s told by The Eighth Doctor that he’s going to die soon, which suggests it’s shortly before the TV Movie. The Tramp's Story references Excelis Decays, Project: Twilight and Master in that order, and seems to be set shortly after them as the Doctor is melancholic about failing to save people in those stories, and he’s glad to be able to save someone in this story. The Doctor spends several years travelling with Cat prior to Companion Piece, so I’d maybe set it a bit earlier than where it currently sits on the timeline. It was released in December 2003, so I’d maybe put it between Master and Valhalla. Especially seeing as The Tramp's Story also sees him take on another companion of several years. Obviously we all know Ground Zero doesn’t really make any sense except in its own context and probably never will unless some writers work in a nifty retcon or something. The Doctor in Persuasion claims that he’s nearing the end of his life and is trying to tie up loose ends and get rid of evil in the universe because he fears his next incarnation won’t be go to the same lengths as him. Klein notes that this attitude is very different to the one he had in Dominion. So I would at Persuasion as the beginning of the end of the end of the Seventh Doctor. Lungbarrow Notre Dame Du Temps Excelis Decays Project: Lazarus Master The Tramp's Story Companion Piece Valhalla Frozen Time The Death Collectors Spider's Shadow Twilight's End Kingdom of Silver UNIT: Dominion The Shadow Heart Persuasion Starlight Robbery Daleks Among Us The Two Doctors Warlock's Cross Dark Universe / The Eleven Doctor Who: The Movie Where do you place things like Sirens of Time, New Adventures of Bernice Summerfield and Diary of River Song that, afaik, happen around that time as well for him. Usually Last of the Titans and Sirens are placed before and after Lazarus, aren't they? ETA: Oh, and the Mags trilogy, would you place that in one of the gaps during the VNAs or here? |
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Jan 26, 2020 16:00:04 GMT
Where do you place things like Sirens of Time, New Adventures of Bernice Summerfield and Diary of River Song that, afaik, happen around that time as well for him. Usually Last of the Titans and Sirens are placed before and after Lazarus, aren't they?ETA: Oh, and the Mags trilogy, would you place that in one of the gaps during the VNAs or here? The Doctor references Sirens of Time in Cold Fusion, so it presumably has to come before that, unless you say he’s remembering it from the perspective of Five/Six. I personally put it during The Chris and Roz era and before Cold Fusion, because I like the idea that they were waiting in the TARDIS for the Doctor Like Tegan, Turlough and Evelyn were for their respective Doctors. Oddly, the production codes place it between Project: Lazarus and Master. I think the TARDIS interior noises are the TV ones as well, rather than the Victorian console room. For the longest time I had the New Adventures of Bernice Summerfield sets right after Lungbarrow because I worked under the assumption that Ace did stay on Gallifrey after all in Lungbarrow. Then she rejoins the Doctor in NABS, and after Benny finally leaves again The Prisoner's Dilemma happens, and Ace loses her memory and that leads into the Hex Audios. I don’t really subscribe to that idea anymore to be honest, so I’m not sure where to place them. Obviously the Doctor looks young and he’s in his NA linens, which would suggest it’s close to the NA era rather than his melancholic Movie era, so maybe I would leave it soon after the Chris and Roz era. Again Diary of River Song is annoying because he’s got his Season 26 look, but the Victorian parlour TARDIS and mentions that his best friend is an archaeologist. The Mags Trilogy to me, doesn’t feel like it should go in the solo era. The Doctor is effectively the same one from the Ace/Hex/Mel Audios but obviously Ace has left already. I think at the minute I’ve got a sort of pre-old Seven gap where he still looks young and is travelling about after the NAs with the old Seven Audios coming right at the end, but it doesn’t sit 100% right with me. I wish BF would give us some more structure to the Seventh Doctor's Timeline. I doesn’t help that from BF’s frame of reference, there’s only one gap for Seventh Doctor solo adventures and that’s after Ace leaves and before the movie. Obviously there’s a few other minor gaps created by other mediums, but I doubt they’re on BF’s radar. It seems to be that any story set explicitly after UNIT: Dominion is getting the TV Movie Seven treatment but then anything else gets a generic tv era Seventh Doctor. Basically the answer is, I’ve got no bloody clue where half of this stuff is supposed to go. It’d grieve me to do release order and have him go from TV Movie Seven to Just TV Seven and then back again. I almost wonder if they’re trying to recontextualise that era by making Persuasion the beginning of the end, instead of Excelis Decay, Project: Lazarus and Master. Who knows, BF probably don’t even know themselves. |
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Jan 26, 2020 16:12:40 GMT
Just a few notes about the Older Seven era Notre Dame Du Temps goes immediately after Lungbarrow, rather than shortly before the TV Movie. The Eight Doctors is difficult to place, as it has the Doctor decide to to change the TARDIS interior to the Victorian Parlour design, suggesting that it’s before Excelis Decays and he’s wearing his Season 26 costume, but he’s told by The Eighth Doctor that he’s going to die soon, which suggests it’s shortly before the TV Movie. The Tramp's Story references Excelis Decays, Project: Twilight and Master in that order, and seems to be set shortly after them as the Doctor is melancholic about failing to save people in those stories, and he’s glad to be able to save someone in this story. The Doctor spends several years travelling with Cat prior to Companion Piece, so I’d maybe set it a bit earlier than where it currently sits on the timeline. It was released in December 2003, so I’d maybe put it between Master and Valhalla. Especially seeing as The Tramp's Story also sees him take on another companion of several years. Obviously we all know Ground Zero doesn’t really make any sense except in its own context and probably never will unless some writers work in a nifty retcon or something. The Doctor in Persuasion claims that he’s nearing the end of his life and is trying to tie up loose ends and get rid of evil in the universe because he fears his next incarnation won’t be go to the same lengths as him. Klein notes that this attitude is very different to the one he had in Dominion. So I would at Persuasion as the beginning of the end of the end of the Seventh Doctor. Lungbarrow Notre Dame Du Temps Excelis Decays Project: Lazarus Master The Tramp's Story Companion Piece Valhalla Frozen Time The Death Collectors Spider's Shadow Twilight's End Kingdom of Silver UNIT: Dominion The Shadow Heart Persuasion Starlight Robbery Daleks Among Us The Two Doctors Masters Warlock's Cross Dark Universe / The Eleven Doctor Who: The Movie Unless we're told otherwise I'm thinking from the Doctor's POV (despite Cover Art) Physic Circus and Subterfuge come after Warlock Cross but Before Dark Universe. Regards mark687 Thanks for fixing The Two Masters. I kept telling myself it’s The Two Masters not Doctors and then I wrote Doctors anyway. I’m hoping that there’s some kind of continuity between Dark Universe and the other two stories, but something tells me they’re just going to be arbitrary in their placement. It’d be nice if The Psychic Circus reminds the Doctor of Mags and he decides to check up on her afterwards, but I doubt that’d happen. |
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Post by xlozdob on Jan 26, 2020 19:13:08 GMT
Where do you place things like Sirens of Time, New Adventures of Bernice Summerfield and Diary of River Song that, afaik, happen around that time as well for him. Usually Last of the Titans and Sirens are placed before and after Lazarus, aren't they?ETA: Oh, and the Mags trilogy, would you place that in one of the gaps during the VNAs or here? I wish BF would give us some more structure to the Seventh Doctor's Timeline. If only... Thanks for the detailed rundown. I appreciate it, even if there's nothing conclusive. |
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Everyone's had a really good theory, I'm just griping at the status quo a little (just before I went to sleep as it turned out). 
