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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2016 2:48:43 GMT
I can't remember who originally came up with the idea (it was definitely someone on this forum), but the more mundane battlefield seen in the final "years" of the War could theoretically be reconciled away with the Time Lords and the Daleks running out of temporal weaponry, thereby having to resort to conventional arms instead. It's a neat little theory and it echoes the final days of the Thal-Kaled War on Skaro as we saw in Genesis of the Daleks.
Nevertheless, I'm definitely not disputing the potential of that particular period in the Doctor's life. The Faction Paradox stories have shown how much mileage there is to a cross-temporal war where epochs have replaced territory as a theatre of war. The power play in the Osirian court on the Ship of a Billion Years remains one of the most vivid depictions of an actual time active conflict I've heard on audio. Exploring the War isn't really the issue, it's more that the actual War Doctor's arc doesn't make any sense based on what has come before and after him. You can feel the awkward frayed edges where he's been stapled over into canon, I've got Engines of War on my shelf and even in that he feels as though he's understudying for his previous incarnation.
If you don't have that problem, fair enough that's your prerogative but for me... His whole presence makes Eighth feel really cowardly. I think he deserved much better than that.
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Post by seeley on Mar 25, 2016 4:17:36 GMT
I can't remember who originally came up with the idea (it was definitely someone on this forum), but the more mundane battlefield seen in the final "years" of the War could theoretically be reconciled away with the Time Lords and the Daleks running outs of temporal weaponry, thereby having to resort to conventional arms instead. It's a neat little theory and it echoes the final days of the Thal-Kaled War on Skaro as we saw in Genesis of the Daleks. I wasn't the one who posted it, but it certainly occurred to me, not too long after I saw Day of the Doctor. It seemed like such an obvious comparison that I was surprised that most people didn't seem to think of it. I wouldn't be surprised if it was Moffat's intent. Exploring the War isn't really the issue, it's more that the actual War Doctor's arc doesn't make any sense based on what has come before and after him. You can feel the awkward frayed edges where he's been stapled over into canon, I've got Engines of War on my shelf and even in that he feels as though he's understudying for his previous incarnation. How so? I certainly didn't get the impression that Mann was writing him as sub-McGann. I can't imagine the BF Eighth Doctor coldly dematerializing Karlax out of the TARDIS and into the waiting plungers of Daleks. That said, I think that if you're expecting the War Doctor to behave as an absolute monster, you're missing the point of Day. He thinks himself unworthy of the title, but his future incarnations come to consider him "the Doctor more than anybody else." This is followed by them almost assisting him in using the Moment. He isn't some Evil Doctor, ala the Valeyard, or even some sort of utilitarian beserker. He's a good man caught up in a nigh hopeless situation and pushed to his limits. I think that Moffat likes subverting character-cliches. The War Doctor threatens to be some sort of dreary, comic book-EVIL VERSION(!) of the Doctor, but isn't. River Song tries to dismiss Amy's murder of Madame Kovarian, by way of it having happened in an aborted timeline, but Amy retorts that no, she still made the choice. The Twelfth Doctor spends an entire season pondering whether or not he's a good man, only to decide that he's an idiot. I'm sure there are other examples. His whole presence makes Eighth feel really cowardly. I think he deserved much better than that. Cowardly? For thinking it wrong to fight in the Time War? Or for having the temerity to be dying when the Sisterhood convinces him to change his mind?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2016 4:51:12 GMT
Alrighty, let's take it from the top: Exploring the War isn't really the issue, it's more that the actual War Doctor's arc doesn't make any sense based on what has come before and after him. You can feel the awkward frayed edges where he's been stapled over into canon, I've got Engines of War on my shelf and even in that he feels as though he's understudying for his previous incarnation. How so? I certainly didn't get the impression that Mann was writing him as sub-McGann. I can't imagine the BF Eighth Doctor coldly dematerializing Karlax out of the TARDIS and into the waiting plungers of Daleks. After To the Death and Terror Firma I certainly can. Remember this is an incarnation that made Davros beg to say "Please," for an injection that would stop the pain and was so beaten down by events that when Harriet said she was going to kill him, his only response was: "Good." There are other instances as well, in one notable (and still rather haunting) instance he took an axe to the main villain in Time Works and hacked her apart while she was screaming. If you flip over to the books he's a lot more passionate as well. He beats a man's skull in, lets another burn to death, shoots a bad guy in the head to spare his companion from having to finish him off, etc. Even in the television series the Fifth Doctor said cheerily that he was going to "bring a little light" into the Myrka's life, right before he blinded it to death. Go back even further and the Second Doctor is cheerfully roasting Ice Warriors alive inside their armoured suits in The Seeds of Death. He's the incarnation that let Kleig open the tombs of the Cybermen in the first place and let Jamie become a pawn in the Daleks' ongoing experiments if it meant wiping them all out, remember? From what I've seen, this is not out of character for many of his incarnations when the cards are down and things are deadly serious. That said, I think that if you're expecting the War Doctor to behave as an absolute monster, you're missing the point of Day. He thinks himself unworthy of the title, but his future incarnations come to consider him "the Doctor more than anybody else." This is followed by them almost assisting him in using the Moment. He isn't some Evil Doctor, ala the Valeyard, or even some sort of utilitarian beserker. He's a good man caught up in a nigh hopeless situation and pushed to his limits. Accepted. I'm really glad that they didn't go the EVIL Doctor route, but what can this particular incarnation do that his Eighth or Ninth incarnations cannot? I point to the above with the addition of the Fourth Doctor making cyanide gas to kill Solon in The Brain of Morbius and potentially snapping Scoby's neck in The Seeds of Doom. I think that Moffat likes subverting character-cliches. The War Doctor threatens to be some sort of dreary, comic book-EVIL VERSION(!) of the Doctor, but isn't. River Song tries to dismiss Amy's murder of Madame Kovarian, by way of it having happened in an aborted timeline, but Amy retorts that no, she still made the choice. The Twelfth Doctor spends an entire season pondering whether or not he's a good man, only to decide that he's an idiot. I'm sure there are other examples. Ooh, yeah, there was an arc that everybody knew the outcome to. Everyone I had chatted to found that really underwhelming as an arc cause they'd seen the shadier Ninth and Tenth Doctor beforehand and gone: "Yeah, we know this. We know that he's not one, nor the other. And...?" Honestly, these are decisions that I think the characters should be making anyway. The Fifth Doctor immediately takes responsibility for putting Peri on Androzani Major, Barbara calls the First Doctor out on tricking them into going back to the Dalek city, Charley forces the Eighth Doctor to face the Time Lords when he realises she's dead, etc. His whole presence makes Eighth feel really cowardly. I think he deserved much better than that. Cowardly? For thinking it wrong to fight in the Time War? Or for having the temerity to be dying when the Sisterhood convinces him to change his mind? That made me chuckle. "How dare you have the audacity to die on me when I'm speaking to you!" More seriously though, it's the fact that he could be convinced at all really which rubbed me the wrong way. I don't see the Eighth Doctor -- dying or no -- foisting off that burden onto his next life.
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Mar 25, 2016 5:48:01 GMT
In effect, the other Doctors shun War because he broke the Promise. So he was either cowardly, cruel or he gave up.
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Post by Hieronymus on Mar 25, 2016 5:55:10 GMT
I didn't know until today that a Fourth Doctor series was even in the works. Found #1 on the newsstand when I went to grab #5 of the McGann series.
The Eighth Doctor series is the only one I'm ready regularly. Not great, but not bad.
I've got the Ninth, but haven't sat down to read them yet. Too busy with other reading so far.
However, I do not understand why the artists for Doctor Who comics perpetually have problems sticking to model when drawing the Doctors. It's not just a Titan thing, but a problem since the original Hartnell comics run. Some artists have done well, but there seem to be many who just can't draw a recognizable face.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2016 9:38:43 GMT
However, I do not understand why the artists for Doctor Who comics perpetually have problems sticking to model when drawing the Doctors. It's not just a Titan thing, but a problem since the original Hartnell comics run. Some artists have done well, but there seem to be many who just can't draw a recognizable face. Poor Sylvester McCoy seemed to suffer the worst of it over his rather sporadic run in DWM. Some days he was captured perfectly, other days it looked as though Rowan Atkinson had snuck in, knocked him over the head and taken over for three-quarters of the story. Ironically, the two Doctors who featured the least on television, Colin Baker and Paul McGann, seemed to have the most consistent set of features over their comic run.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Mar 25, 2016 10:42:02 GMT
There's definitely a market for War Doctor stories, Big Finish has proved that. Some aspects of the Time War could work well in comic strip form (there's a twist from the last story in the most recent War Doctor Box Set that would have made a great comic book cliffhanger) although I do believe audio is the best medium for Time War stories because there's so much left to the imagination. There are fans who weren't satisfied with how the Time War was realised in The Day of the Doctor. Personally, I'd rather the Eighth Doctor mini-series had been set when he was skirting the edges of the Time War, trying to save the victims while not getting involved in the actual conflict. Maybe he picks up a companion who isn't aware of the Time Lord's reputation and learning about it changes how s/he sees the Doctor, becoming disillusioned by him or being killed because of their association with him. There's potential in the collateral damage and how that poisons the reputation of the Time Lords. It's not just people who are affected, but whole planets like the homeworld of the Nestenes or the Gelth. How would a sentient planet react? What kinds of races are forced into a hopeless exodus because of the Time War? I wish we could get some 8th Doctor and Grace stories. Rights issues suck.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2016 10:53:18 GMT
There's definitely a market for War Doctor stories, Big Finish has proved that. Some aspects of the Time War could work well in comic strip form (there's a twist from the last story in the most recent War Doctor Box Set that would have made a great comic book cliffhanger) although I do believe audio is the best medium for Time War stories because there's so much left to the imagination. There are fans who weren't satisfied with how the Time War was realised in The Day of the Doctor. Personally, I'd rather the Eighth Doctor mini-series had been set when he was skirting the edges of the Time War, trying to save the victims while not getting involved in the actual conflict. Maybe he picks up a companion who isn't aware of the Time Lord's reputation and learning about it changes how s/he sees the Doctor, becoming disillusioned by him or being killed because of their association with him. There's potential in the collateral damage and how that poisons the reputation of the Time Lords. It's not just people who are affected, but whole planets like the homeworld of the Nestenes or the Gelth. How would a sentient planet react? What kinds of races are forced into a hopeless exodus because of the Time War? I wish we could get some 8th Doctor and Grace stories. Rights issues suck. I know right? I'd check out a comic called The Fallen if you haven't already, it's an awesome little follow up to the TV Movie. Turns out that after that whole world-shattering affair in America, Grace went to work for MI6 in England.
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Post by omega on Mar 25, 2016 22:18:10 GMT
There's definitely a market for War Doctor stories, Big Finish has proved that. Some aspects of the Time War could work well in comic strip form (there's a twist from the last story in the most recent War Doctor Box Set that would have made a great comic book cliffhanger) although I do believe audio is the best medium for Time War stories because there's so much left to the imagination. There are fans who weren't satisfied with how the Time War was realised in The Day of the Doctor. Personally, I'd rather the Eighth Doctor mini-series had been set when he was skirting the edges of the Time War, trying to save the victims while not getting involved in the actual conflict. Maybe he picks up a companion who isn't aware of the Time Lord's reputation and learning about it changes how s/he sees the Doctor, becoming disillusioned by him or being killed because of their association with him. There's potential in the collateral damage and how that poisons the reputation of the Time Lords. It's not just people who are affected, but whole planets like the homeworld of the Nestenes or the Gelth. How would a sentient planet react? What kinds of races are forced into a hopeless exodus because of the Time War? I wish we could get some 8th Doctor and Grace stories. Rights issues suck. Exactly. It's not like Fox intend to use the character again and it's been 20 years at this point. Any chance of Fox doing their own DW series was gone when the American viewers weren't plentiful to justify it.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Mar 26, 2016 10:45:09 GMT
I wish we could get some 8th Doctor and Grace stories. Rights issues suck. Exactly. It's not like Fox intend to use the character again and it's been 20 years at this point. Any chance of Fox doing their own DW series was gone when the American viewers weren't plentiful to justify it. Yeah, they're hardly going to create a Grace Holloway spinoff series now.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Mar 26, 2016 21:29:51 GMT
I can understand hating certain characters but totally disregarding a Doctor as if that incarnation doesn't exist just seems like people are taking Name of the Doctor too seriously IMO. And completely ignoring half of a series because you don't like it is very extreme. You have heard of this thing called fandom, right?
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Mar 26, 2016 22:59:51 GMT
I can understand hating certain characters but totally disregarding a Doctor as if that incarnation doesn't exist just seems like people are taking Name of the Doctor too seriously IMO. And completely ignoring half of a series because you don't like it is very extreme. You have heard of this thing called fandom, right? I'm a part of this fandom! I've never seen anyone claim the second part of series 6 doesn't exist though or refuse to count John Hurt as a Doctor.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Mar 26, 2016 23:13:57 GMT
You have heard of this thing called fandom, right? I'm a part of this fandom! I've never seen anyone claim the second part of series 6 doesn't exist though or refuse to count John Hurt as a Doctor. See the thing about fandom is it is very, very large. And sprawling. Vast even. So purely personal anecdotal experience doesn't really take in everything. Or most of it. I'm sure if you were to trawl the trolls over at Outpost Gallifrey you would find more than a few.
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Post by omega on Mar 26, 2016 23:15:49 GMT
I'm a part of this fandom! I've never seen anyone claim the second part of series 6 doesn't exist though or refuse to count John Hurt as a Doctor. See the thing about fandom is it is very, very large. And sprawling. Vast even. So purely personal anecdotal experience doesn't really take in everything. Or most of it. I'm sure if you were to trawl the trolls over at Outpost Gallifrey you would find more than a few. It's now Gallifrey Base. Still not the best of places to trawl if you're an innocent soul like dalekbuster523finish.
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Mar 27, 2016 1:23:23 GMT
You have heard of this thing called fandom, right? I'm a part of this fandom! I've never seen anyone claim the second part of series 6 doesn't exist though or refuse to count John Hurt as a Doctor. There was one rather infamous member of fandom that refused to acknowledge anything after Survival as being Doctor Who. There was another who only considered the novels to be proper Doctor Who.
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Post by agentten on Mar 27, 2016 4:31:44 GMT
I'm a part of this fandom! I've never seen anyone claim the second part of series 6 doesn't exist though or refuse to count John Hurt as a Doctor. There was one rather infamous member of fandom that refused to acknowledge anything after Survival as being Doctor Who. There was another who only considered the novels to be proper Doctor Who. I'd be very curious about the fan who only counts novels as proper Doctor Who. I can completely understand the need to create a personal cannon, fans do it all the time when they ignore the fourth Indiana Jones film or didn't like the new Star Wars film, but it's interesting to encounter someone who denies the original medium that their fandom occupies.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Mar 27, 2016 17:32:23 GMT
I'm a part of this fandom! I've never seen anyone claim the second part of series 6 doesn't exist though or refuse to count John Hurt as a Doctor. There was one rather infamous member of fandom that refused to acknowledge anything after Survival as being Doctor Who. I've come across that before. I think it's more understandable given Survival's final scene was intended as an end to the original run.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2016 19:17:08 GMT
There was one rather infamous member of fandom that refused to acknowledge anything after Survival as being Doctor Who. I've come across that before. I think it's more understandable given Survival's final scene was intended as an end to the original run. Don't forget the Gareth Roberts Fourth Doctor novels were specifically intended by him to nable n interpretation nothing after Horns of Nimon "really happened".
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2016 11:19:50 GMT
I've come across that before. I think it's more understandable given Survival's final scene was intended as an end to the original run. Don't forget the Gareth Roberts Fourth Doctor novels were specifically intended by him to enable an interpretation nothing after Horns of Nimon "really happened". Or the Ground Zero comic that killed off a youngish Ace who never went through her Big Finish appearances or transitioned across into the New Adventures. Anachronisms and apocrypha abound and there are chunks of fandom who do accept something as a bit more canon than others. For example, the TV Comics with the Doctor shouting "Die, hideous creature die!" while shooting down helpless evil aliens are usually dismissed outright because of their wildly out of character depiction of our beloved titular Time Lord. Steve Lyons relegated Dr. Who and his companions John and Gillian to the Land of Fiction with a later Eighth Doctor comic strip placing them as a recurring dream of the Doctor's that he can retreat to escape the real world. However, the Klepton parasites from TV Comic later make an appearance in an Eighth Doctor novel that's set in the "real" universe as well, so which can be regarded as "true" and which is "fiction"? It's ultimately left up to the reader -- i.e. you, the fan -- to decide which can be held as the more truthful representation. Are the New Adventures part of your personal canon because they explore deeper themes that the television series could never touch or are they dismissed outright as published fan fiction? Do you take all the comics into consideration from the Doctor's appearance in Death's Head to his meeting with the crew of the Enterprise-D (fun fact, the fictional Fifth Doctor turns up asking if the holodeck is Heathrow in one of the Trek novels) or is only DWM comics counted because they better fit with the series' overarching ethos? So eventually, after a certain point you get people who cut out entire ranges or series because they don't fit with their view of Doctor Who. Some people have hated NuWho from the get-go while others won't even touch the classic series because it doesn't conform to what they've seen in the new series. It calls to mind something the Doctor says in the audio Master actually; paraphrasing it's "Do you see the same colour red that I see? Is my colour red any less real than yours?" It's all part of the fun really, seeing how it's all pieced together. Who fandom is so wonderfully multicultural in that everyone's got their own opinion.
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aztec
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Post by aztec on Mar 30, 2016 14:42:39 GMT
You have heard of this thing called fandom, right? I'm a part of this fandom! I've never seen anyone claim the second part of series 6 doesn't exist though or refuse to count John Hurt as a Doctor. Not going to name names, but I've come across fans (in fact I think a few posted on the old forum from time to time) who completely refuse to acknowledge any stories featuring the War Doctor (or Valeyard, or Moffat's stories or Rose etc) and seemed to cherish the opportunity to mention how annoyed they were with the concepts at any opportunity possible...I'm not going to loose any sleep over it, but if I'm not enjoying something I'll just move on, and not waste time watching or talking about it with people who aren't going to agree with me, that's entirely there prerogative, I've always held the position that Doctor Who doesn't and shouldn't really have a hard 'canon' as such , and the ancillary materials are so rich, that as a fandom we are blessed with how much we can ignore or enjoy at own leisure.
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