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Post by timegirl on May 3, 2021 18:46:59 GMT
“Deep Breath” will one day be reappraised as one of the greatest and most underrated post-regeneration episode of all DW. Yes, I know it has a few flaws and corny bits ( what episode of DW doesn’t?), but “Deep Breath” has one of the deepest and honestly most heartbreaking explorations of post-regeneration trauma and the Doctor’s changing identity ever told in DW. It also foreshadows much of the long and transformative arch 12 has both with himself and his relationship with Clara. As a related point the line “I’m not your boyfriend” from “Deep Breath” is one of the single most misinterpreted lines in DW. People often misread this line to mean that 12 isn’t interested in Clara romantically. They miss out on the added context of “I never said it was your mistake”. 12 is very much still in love with Clara but hides it at this point due to self consciousness of his older appearance and worrying that Clara would never want him as he is now, not to mention his still fresh trauma from Trensilor. The “I’m not your boyfriend” line is about how 12 is pushing Clara away and feeling self defeatist, rather than some statement of 12 wanting no romance with Clara. Sidenote: Here is a clip of Peter Capaldi stating that 12 and Clara have “a truly romantic relationship” youtu.be/K7i62ERas2s
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Post by theillusiveman on May 4, 2021 13:43:58 GMT
after reading a wiki i think that Steven Moffatt took alot of inspiration from The EDA books in developing Clara and Rory
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Post by timegirl on May 4, 2021 13:55:27 GMT
after reading a wiki i think that Steven Moffatt took alot of inspiration from The EDA books in developing Clara and Rory Interesting, I never read the EDA books. How did they influence the characters Clara and Rory?
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Post by theillusiveman on May 5, 2021 1:35:10 GMT
The Rani is the doctors ex
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Post by timegirl on May 5, 2021 2:19:44 GMT
The Doctor’s previous incarnations live on in various afterlifes after the Doctor regenerates. Some of them even end up in the same afterlife as certain companions. All the previous incarnations visit each other from time to time but some them of them keep mostly to themselves (and sometimes if they so choose their afterlife companion).The past Doctors still go on all sorts of adventures and often try all sorts of things they wanted to do during their lifetime but couldn’t. All the Doctors live in lovely houses that match their particular personalities.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2021 6:03:41 GMT
The Doctor’s previous incarnations live on in various afterlifes after the Doctor regenerates. Some of them even end up in the same afterlife as certain companions. All the previous incarnations visit each other from time to time but some them of them keep mostly to themselves (and sometimes if they so choose their afterlife companion).The past Doctors still go on all sorts of adventures and often try all sorts of things they wanted to do during their lifetime but couldn’t. All the Doctors live in lovely houses that match their particular personalities. Definitely visited, after a fashion, over the course of Timewyrm: Revelation. These are all largely subject to the Seventh Doctor's life being most current, so a grain of salt... The First Doctor exists in a library at the centre of a garden, looking for the daisiest daisy, but insisting it's a rose. The Third Doctor... Well, his zone is overtaken by another power, so it's difficult to say. It was probably a city of some advanced sophistication. After briefly helping the Seventh Doctor, he was haunted by the conclusions made of his past (hence the hijack). Likewise for the Fourth Doctor, we only see that he picks up a punt and a boat to act as ferryman between the zones. It's implied he goes wandering even though he shouldn't. The Fifth Doctor was snared in the Pit by the Seventh because his conscience was getting in the way of his actions. And the Sixth was sealed in a room with no doors. To protect others, was what the Seventh Doctor believed. To be protected from outside forces, was what the Sixth was told by Time herself. By the Eighth Doctor, he's no longer there and the Seventh has retired to a walled-off garden where he is guarding over 150,000 flowers for safekeeping. For other incarnations like the Second (and those after Eight), it all becomes even more vague. In the way that dreams born of memories often do. What do you think lies in each incarnation's resting place by their current life?
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Post by timegirl on May 6, 2021 2:32:28 GMT
The Doctor’s previous incarnations live on in various afterlifes after the Doctor regenerates. Some of them even end up in the same afterlife as certain companions. All the previous incarnations visit each other from time to time but some them of them keep mostly to themselves (and sometimes if they so choose their afterlife companion).The past Doctors still go on all sorts of adventures and often try all sorts of things they wanted to do during their lifetime but couldn’t. All the Doctors live in lovely houses that match their particular personalities. Definitely visited, after a fashion, over the course of Timewyrm: Revelation. These are all largely subject to the Seventh Doctor's life being most current, so a grain of salt... The First Doctor exists in a library at the centre of a garden, looking for the daisiest daisy, but insisting it's a rose. The Third Doctor... Well, his zone is overtaken by another power, so it's difficult to say. It was probably a city of some advanced sophistication. After briefly helping the Seventh Doctor, he was haunted by the conclusions made of his past (hence the hijack). Likewise for the Fourth Doctor, we only see that he picks up a punt and a boat to act as ferryman between the zones. It's implied he goes wandering even though he shouldn't. The Fifth Doctor was snared in the Pit by the Seventh because his conscience was getting in the way of his actions. And the Sixth was sealed in a room with no doors. To protect others, was what the Seventh Doctor believed. To be protected from outside forces, was what the Sixth was told by Time herself. By the Eighth Doctor, he's no longer there and the Seventh has retired to a walled-off garden where he is guarding over 150,000 flowers for safekeeping. For other incarnations like the Second (and those after Eight), it all becomes even more vague. In the way that dreams born of memories often do. What do you think lies in each incarnation's resting place by their current life? I always thought each previous Doctor would wake up in the afterlife after they regenerate for some reason in my mind they always wake up in a sunny field of flowers. Sometimes they are greeted by other Doctors or deceased companions. For example in 12’s case he woke up at the same time as Clara when she went back to her death. Other examples include One and Susan , 2 and Jamie, etc. Every Doctor has their own special house suited to their ( and possibly any deceased companions who decided to stay and keep them company.) Their homes evoke their TARDIS’s in small ways and can very from enormous castles to more cozy cottages. I also think that the current residents all throw a big welcome party for the new arrivals. One had quite the shock when he was greeted by many incarnations before him he had forgotten! It’s also not exactly an afterlife more like a second life for past incarnations where the stakes are far lower and everything is more relaxed.
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Post by timegirl on May 9, 2021 21:33:20 GMT
12 ‘s wardrobe shift and guitar playing an important and necessary character development in series 9 and are not cheesy and pandering. It represents a shift in his personality where he is both experiencing a midlife crisis after being threatened with death in “The Magician’s apprentice”. As well as showing how he is loosening up and expressing himself more through Clara’s influence and his “I am an idiot” revelation. Plus I think 12’s music ability shows that he has a sensitive expressive side to him. If music and guitar playing wasn’t an important part of 12’s character we would not have the significant revelation that he wrote the song that we as an audience had known as Clara’s theme song since series 7b!
I really hope if BF gets Capaldi one day they expand on all these themes, especially 12’s music ability. There is a lot to be done with that and I also strongly believe they should expand it to 12 singing as well as his guitar playing. Maybe include a few scenes here and there of 12 trying to write songs about his travels and things. The midlife crisis aspect could also be pushed a lot further and expanded on too, and I think there are some interesting unusual angles that could be taken with this.
I always find it strange when I hear people say that these changes 12 goes through were stupid and cheesy when they are so tied to 12’s character development and part of what makes him unique as a Doctor.
I actually like the fact that Clara became immortal in “Hell Bent”, even if I didn’t like 12 and Clara being separated and Me/Ashider being Clara’s companion. Clara was already on the path to becoming the human Doctor anyways and of course 12 would bring her back to life, she is his soulmate after all. I kind of wished they Clara either stayed on throughout 12’s whole run as his immortal wife or if they had to keep things as they are; bring Clara back for a series 10 episode where 12 (although he doesn’t realize it’s her) and Clara briefly rekindle their feelings for each other. Even though I love series 10, it just feels like Clara is missing. Clara is such a big part of 12’s life that it feels wrong to me for her to not appear least once in series 10!
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Post by timegirl on May 12, 2021 13:34:31 GMT
Particularly because of the horrible things John Barrowman and Noel Clark did and just because it makes sense for these characters I think Torchwood, both in BF and if they reappear on tv either on their own spinoff or just appearing on DW, should be retooled to star Me/Ashildr and Martha Jones as the new new heads of Torchwood. Me/Ashildr is another complex immortal character but unlike Jack, she is played by an unproblematic actress. Just add a line that it’s some time after she stopped traveling with Clara. Martha Jones is an underutilized badass character who deserves more content. Just have a line about her recent divorce to explain the absence of Micky. I think Me/Ashildr and Martha Jones would have an interesting dynamic, sort of a complicated good cop bad cop. Plus it would make sense to have a female led Torchwood to mirror Doctor Who having a female Doctor. It would probably also be hugely popular with fandom as well.
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Post by thelonecenturion on May 12, 2021 13:48:39 GMT
Particularly because of the horrible things John Barrowman and Noel Clark did and just because it makes sense for these characters I think Torchwood, both in BF and if they reappear on tv either on their own spinoff or just appearing on DW, should be retooled to star Me/Ashildr and Martha Jones as the new new heads of Torchwood. Me/Ashildr is another complex immortal character but unlike Jack, she is played by an unproblematic actress. Just add a line that it’s some time after she stopped traveling with Clara. Martha Jones is an underutilized badass character who deserves more content. Just have a line about her recent divorce to explain the absence of Micky. I think Me/Ashildr and Martha Jones would have an interesting dynamic, sort of a complicated good cop bad cop. Plus it would make sense to have a female led Torchwood to mirror Doctor Who having a female Doctor. It would probably also be hugely popular with fandom as well. I doubt they'll drop Barrowman. The concept is cool, but I feel like Yvonne or Mr Colchester would take over - or maybe Norton Folgate would travel into 2021, send Jack back to the 50s and become the new head of Torchwood. By all means, Me could be added at some point, but I feel like she should have a role at some point in future time periods, rather than sticking to the 21st Century. I feel like Martha and Mickey should stay with UNIT - though I think some explanation as to why they've seemingly stopped working there since 2012 could be in order.
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Post by timegirl on May 14, 2021 13:15:19 GMT
The BBC should film Time Fracture and air it on tv or YouTube for the many international fans who would be interested going to see it but can’t/or feel unsafe traveling because of the pandemic. It would be a good way to have official DW content that everyone has access to while we wait for series 13 and it wouldn’t cost them much to film an already pre-existing stage show. They could even have Jodie in character as 13 film a wrap around segment introducing the show and closing it out.
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Post by grinch on May 14, 2021 20:21:39 GMT
Particularly because of the horrible things John Barrowman and Noel Clark did and just because it makes sense for these characters I think Torchwood, both in BF and if they reappear on tv either on their own spinoff or just appearing on DW, should be retooled to star Me/Ashildr and Martha Jones as the new new heads of Torchwood. Me/Ashildr is another complex immortal character but unlike Jack, she is played by an unproblematic actress. Just add a line that it’s some time after she stopped traveling with Clara. Martha Jones is an underutilized badass character who deserves more content. Just have a line about her recent divorce to explain the absence of Micky. I think Me/Ashildr and Martha Jones would have an interesting dynamic, sort of a complicated good cop bad cop. Plus it would make sense to have a female led Torchwood to mirror Doctor Who having a female Doctor. It would probably also be hugely popular with fandom as well. It’s an interesting idea but I’m not sure if Ashildr strikes me as the sort of character who would join something like Torchwood let alone become the head of it. I think she’d be more than likely to continue travelling across the stars rather than return to Earth.
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Post by timegirl on May 16, 2021 0:07:14 GMT
I hope if one day BF gets Capaldi and Coleman, they don’t misinterpret 12 and Clara as having a father daughter dynamic. I love and respect BF but if they write for 12 and Clara I hope the writers pay very close attention to the romantic subtext of their relationship and don’t simply see the age difference between them and jump to the conclusion that they have a father daughter relationship. The underlying romantic nature of 12 and Clara’s relationship is one of the most important things about their dynamic and explains almost every motivation of their arch. If they write 12 and Clara as father and daughter then it would not be accurate to their characters and it would show that they didn’t pay any attention to their arch and subtext and simply just saw the age difference and projected something wrong onto the characters. I will be very nervous if BF ever gets the the two of them because of being scared they might get the relationship wrong which is a mistake people often do. Peter Capaldi himself did say that they have a “truly romantic relationship”: youtu.be/K7i62ERas2sIf BF gets Capaldi and Coleman and does get their relationship right and possibly even expands on their romantic subtext I would never ask for anything else ever!😊
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2021 1:01:21 GMT
I hope if one day BF gets Capaldi and Coleman, they don’t misinterpret 12 and Clara as having a father daughter dynamic. I love and respect BF but if they write for 12 and Clara I hope the writers pay very close attention to the romantic subtext of their relationship and don’t simply see the age difference between them and jump to the conclusion that they have a father daughter relationship. The underlying romantic nature of 12 and Clara’s relationship is one of the most important things about their dynamic and explains almost every motivation of their arch. If they write 12 and Clara as father and daughter then it would not be accurate to their characters and it would show that they didn’t pay any attention to their arch and subtext and simply just saw the age difference and projected something wrong onto the characters. I will be very nervous if BF ever gets the the two of them because of being scared they might get the relationship wrong which is a mistake people often do.
Peter Capaldi himself did say that they have a “truly romantic relationship”: youtu.be/K7i62ERas2sIf BF gets Capaldi and Coleman and does get their relationship right and possibly even expands on their romantic subtext I would never ask for anything else ever!😊 I'd be careful of going too far in the direction you're feeling put in by others though - that your interpretation is THE one and the others are wrong. That's a pendulum that swings as hard both ways. I don't think it's an exaggeration to say most people on here and the old forum - and in the general zeitgeist - who have discussed it since 2014 don't see Clara's relationship with the 12th Doctor as a sexually romantic thing at all. You've posted that youtube clip a lot but as I've said, "romantic" doesn't necessarily mean in a relationship, or wanting to be. "Romantic poets" weren't writing about relationships all the time. A "romantic attitude" means idealised, or rose-tinted. And from what Capaldi says, and from everything we see of their relationship I'd say any romantic aspect is closer to that reading. Clara does have an idealised (romantic) view of things that this is all a big adventure and then when something does go wrong..she can get The Doctor to change it. And that's the tragedy of Danny's death - that she realises it's not all fun and games. In Season 9 she's "romantically" adventurous in the way she's devil may care and The Doctor starts to worry she has a death wish. I'd say when using other meanings of the word, as I think Capaldi is, The Doctor and Sarah Jane had a romantic relationship, that McGann is a romantic Doctor early on and many other examples. Robin Hood is the ultimate romantic hero - but not because he's after Maid Marian but because he is romantic himself, with romantic goals of overturning tyrants and romantic adventures that inspired a millenium of boys-own type stories. That's my reading, personally and I know it jars with yours but honestly, I'd be more than surprised - shocked - if BF ever got Peter and Jenna if they used them even hinting of them as an item in the way you have as your headcanon. Saying that's wrong and t;hat people who disagree with your reading are making a mistake is, well, not the way you'd want to be told. You've got your views and everyone does - including BF writers, TV writers, fans. I would say though if BF got it "wrong", didn't the show on TV as well? As I really don't see your read, and maybe I miss it, over their travels together in S8 and S9. I know you cite the father-child dynamic as one you'd be against but I don't think that's ever been, or would be an issue. Clara's an assertive young woman and I think in Season 9 the theme over the year that reaches it's peak in Jenna's last ep is his "duty of care" for her. It's not fatherly, it's not amorous - but it's caring and is loving..but not in the way, say, Tennant's Doc and Rose were. He saw what she went through with Danny and realises he's enabled her wreckless self-regard by travelling with her and continuing to do so. He recognises by the end that it's become toxic and has to end. That what happened with Danny may have been "one of those things" but the reason Clara is literally "dead" on her feet is because she met him. So I don't think they're a couple, personally - or would be. Yet I don't think they're father-daughter. I think they're good friends who get each other, enjoy the other's company and enjoy the (romantic) adventuring. Untill they realise where that took them both - tragedy. What does Missy say in The Magician's Apprentice when The Doctor left her his confession dial and Clara is put out assuming he would have given it to her? Missy tells Clara that of course she cares for The Doctor and he for Missy in a totally different way that transcends his relationship with Clara "Contemplate friendship. A friendship older than your civilisation, and infinitely more complex." I think that's very telling, personally. This is all my own interpretation, of course, but I think it's supported by what we see on screen for two years quite heavily and, frankly, that's a fresher, much deeper and more interesting notion than coupling Clara and The Doctor off. I know a lot of people have issues with Hell Bent but when The Doctor finally opens up as to why he kept going for billions of years to save Clara and says "Because I had a duty of care", I find it very moving. He's the one who got her into this and even though it took that long...he's going to find a way to get her out. It's why the title works - The Doctor is "hell bent", literally - totally focused on his duty of care for his friend who he should have protected more when she started being so wreckless. I think that's terrific stuff from Moffat. I'm certainly not against romance in Doctor Who in the sexual sense and think it can be done well. I think it has been done well. I think it's been done badly. I think Chibnall more than hinted that Yaz has a thing for The Doctor as recently as the last ep on TV given Jack picked her up on it. And I'm also conscious that since I've been a fan reading fanzines in the early to mid 90s there have been people who read things into the show that are quite contrarian and against the grain. Some people think The Second Doctor and Jamie had a thing, that's a bit of fanfic slash that was posited years before the New Series was even a thing. It's not to say anyone's own headcanon can possibly be wrong. But at the same time having strong beliefs in your own interpretation doesn't make anyone disagreeing "wrong", or that they're making a mistake either, as you said. I appreciate this is the "unpopular opinions" thread but if you're posting here saying anyone who doesn't agree must be wrong, there's probably a reason why it's best suited for a thread with that title, honestly. It's one reading and one that makes you very happy to consider which is terrific. Just becomes a bit more problematic when you think anyone not sharing it is wrong and making a mistake - fans or if BF ever did get them on board and didn't write exactly the dynamic you want.
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Post by timegirl on May 16, 2021 1:22:33 GMT
I hope if one day BF gets Capaldi and Coleman, they don’t misinterpret 12 and Clara as having a father daughter dynamic. I love and respect BF but if they write for 12 and Clara I hope the writers pay very close attention to the romantic subtext of their relationship and don’t simply see the age difference between them and jump to the conclusion that they have a father daughter relationship. The underlying romantic nature of 12 and Clara’s relationship is one of the most important things about their dynamic and explains almost every motivation of their arch. If they write 12 and Clara as father and daughter then it would not be accurate to their characters and it would show that they didn’t pay any attention to their arch and subtext and simply just saw the age difference and projected something wrong onto the characters. I will be very nervous if BF ever gets the the two of them because of being scared they might get the relationship wrong which is a mistake people often do.
Peter Capaldi himself did say that they have a “truly romantic relationship”: youtu.be/K7i62ERas2sIf BF gets Capaldi and Coleman and does get their relationship right and possibly even expands on their romantic subtext I would never ask for anything else ever!😊 I'd be careful of going too far in the direction you're feeling put in by others though - that your interpretation is THE one and the others are wrong. That's a pendulum that swings as hard both ways. I don't think it's an exaggeration to say most people on here and the old forum - and in the general zeitgeist - who have discussed it since 2014 don't see Clara's relationship with the 12th Doctor as a sexually romantic thing at all. You've posted that youtube clip a lot but as I've said, "romantic" doesn't necessarily mean in a relationship, or wanting to be. "Romantic poets" weren't writing about relationships all the time. A "romantic attitude" means idealised, or rose-tinted. And from what Capaldi says, and from everything we see of their relationship I'd say any romantic aspect is closer to that reading. Clara does have an idealised (romantic) view of things that this is all a big adventure and then when something does go wrong..she can get The Doctor to change it. And that's the tragedy of Danny's death - that she realises it's not all fun and games. In Season 9 she's "romantically" adventurous in the way she's devil may care and The Doctor starts to worry she has a death wish. I'd say when using other meanings of the word, as I think Capaldi is, The Doctor and Sarah Jane had a romantic relationship, that McGann is a romantic Doctor early on and many other examples. Robin Hood is the ultimate romantic hero - but not because he's after Maid Marian but because he is romantic himself, with romantic goals of overturning tyrants and romantic adventures that inspired a millenium of boys-own type stories. That's my reading, personally and I know it jars with yours but honestly, I'd be more than surprised - shocked - if BF ever got Peter and Jenna if they used them even hinting of them as an item in the way you have as your headcanon. Saying that's wrong and t;hat people who disagree with your reading are making a mistake is, well, not the way you'd want to be told. You've got your views and everyone does - including BF writers, TV writers, fans. I would say though if BF got it "wrong", didn't the show on TV as well? As I really don't see your read, and maybe I miss it, over their travels together in S8 and S9. I know you cite the father-child dynamic as one you'd be against but I don't think that's ever been, or would be an issue. Clara's an assertive young woman and I think in Season 9 the theme over the year that reaches it's peak in Jenna's last ep is his "duty of care" for her. It's not fatherly, it's not amorous - but it's caring and is loving..but not in the way, say, Tennant's Doc and Rose were. He saw what she went through with Danny and realises he's enabled her wreckless self-regard by travelling with her and continuing to do so. He recognises by the end that it's become toxic and has to end. That what happened with Danny may have been "one of those things" but the reason Clara is literally "dead" on her feet is because she met him. So I don't think they're a couple, personally - or would be. Yet I don't think they're father-daughter. I think they're good friends who get each other, enjoy the other's company and enjoy the (romantic) adventuring. Untill they realise where that took them both - tragedy. What does Missy say in The Magician's Apprentice when The Doctor left her his confession dial and Clara is put out assuming he would have given it to her? Missy tells Clara that of course she cares for The Doctor and he for Missy in a totally different way that transcends his relationship with Clara "Contemplate friendship. A friendship older than your civilisation, and infinitely more complex." I think that's very telling, personally. This is all my own interpretation, of course, but I think it's supported by what we see on screen for two years quite heavily and, frankly, that's a fresher, much deeper and more interesting notion than coupling Clara and The Doctor off. I know a lot of people have issues with Hell Bent but when The Doctor finally opens up as to why he kept going for billions of years to save Clara and says "Because I had a duty of care", I find it very moving. He's the one who got her into this and even though it took that long...he's going to find a way to get her out. It's why the title works - The Doctor is "hell bent", literally - totally focused on his duty of care for his friend who he should have protected more when she started being so wreckless. I think that's terrific stuff from Moffat. I'm certainly not against romance in Doctor Who in the sexual sense and think it can be done well. I think it has been done well. I think it's been done badly. I think Chibnall more than hinted that Yaz has a thing for The Doctor as recently as the last ep on TV given Jack picked her up on it. And I'm also conscious that since I've been a fan reading fanzines in the early to mid 90s there have been people who read things into the show that are quite contrarian and against the grain. Some people think The Second Doctor and Jamie had a thing, that's a bit of fanfic slash that was posited years before the New Series was even a thing. It's not to say anyone's own headcanon can possibly be wrong. But at the same time having strong beliefs in your own interpretation doesn't make anyone disagreeing "wrong", or that they're making a mistake either, as you said. I appreciate this is the "unpopular opinions" thread but if you're posting here saying anyone who doesn't agree must be wrong, there's probably a reason why it's best suited for a thread with that title, honestly. It's one reading and one that makes you very happy to consider which is terrific. Just becomes a bit more problematic when you think anyone not sharing it is wrong and making a mistake - fans or if BF ever did get them on board and didn't write exactly the dynamic you want. I see your point but more what I meant was that a father daughter interpretation would be inaccurate to the characters. I don’t mind if they aren’t overtly romantic but just some reference to subtext. I respect your interpretation but I still stand by the fact that they are romantically attracted to each other otherwise in “Last Christmas” Clara would not have said that their was only one other man she would marry and than man was impossible and then kissed 12 on the cheek with a heart shape in the background. I am sorry if I came on too strong in my last post ( I sometimes genuinely have trouble with conveying tone in how I come across in posts) but it is very important to me that they get 12 and Clara’s dynamic right. Edit: Obviously this is only my opinion, and everyone is entitled to their own.
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Post by theillusiveman on May 16, 2021 1:53:06 GMT
Particularly because of the horrible things John Barrowman and Noel Clark did and just because it makes sense for these characters I think Torchwood, both in BF and if they reappear on tv either on their own spinoff or just appearing on DW, should be retooled to star Me/Ashildr and Martha Jones as the new new heads of Torchwood. Me/Ashildr is another complex immortal character but unlike Jack, she is played by an unproblematic actress. Just add a line that it’s some time after she stopped traveling with Clara. Martha Jones is an underutilized badass character who deserves more content. Just have a line about her recent divorce to explain the absence of Micky. I think Me/Ashildr and Martha Jones would have an interesting dynamic, sort of a complicated good cop bad cop. Plus it would make sense to have a female led Torchwood to mirror Doctor Who having a female Doctor. It would probably also be hugely popular with fandom as well. They could just retcon and say that Martha married Tom Ellis's Character from Last of The Time Lords (which she was engaged to as referenced in The Doctor's Daughter) but Hell No to the idea of Ashildr coming back as she was just a bland boring character in one of Capaldis worst seasons.
Regarding the female lead Torchwood really? haven't we already got enough female lead spin offs given that the doctor who franchise already has heaps of female lead spin offs- K9 and Company, The Sarah Jane Adventures, Class and all the Big Finish Spin offs such as: Missy, UNIT, The Paternoster Gang, Class (agian), Rose Tyler Dimension Cannon, Jenny The Doctors Daughter, Lady Chrisitina, The Year of Martha Jones, The Robots, Donna Knoble Kidnapped, Charley Pollard, Bernice Summerfield, Graceless and Vienna
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2021 2:49:44 GMT
I'd be careful of going too far in the direction you're feeling put in by others though - that your interpretation is THE one and the others are wrong. That's a pendulum that swings as hard both ways. I don't think it's an exaggeration to say most people on here and the old forum - and in the general zeitgeist - who have discussed it since 2014 don't see Clara's relationship with the 12th Doctor as a sexually romantic thing at all. You've posted that youtube clip a lot but as I've said, "romantic" doesn't necessarily mean in a relationship, or wanting to be. "Romantic poets" weren't writing about relationships all the time. A "romantic attitude" means idealised, or rose-tinted. And from what Capaldi says, and from everything we see of their relationship I'd say any romantic aspect is closer to that reading. Clara does have an idealised (romantic) view of things that this is all a big adventure and then when something does go wrong..she can get The Doctor to change it. And that's the tragedy of Danny's death - that she realises it's not all fun and games. In Season 9 she's "romantically" adventurous in the way she's devil may care and The Doctor starts to worry she has a death wish. I'd say when using other meanings of the word, as I think Capaldi is, The Doctor and Sarah Jane had a romantic relationship, that McGann is a romantic Doctor early on and many other examples. Robin Hood is the ultimate romantic hero - but not because he's after Maid Marian but because he is romantic himself, with romantic goals of overturning tyrants and romantic adventures that inspired a millenium of boys-own type stories. That's my reading, personally and I know it jars with yours but honestly, I'd be more than surprised - shocked - if BF ever got Peter and Jenna if they used them even hinting of them as an item in the way you have as your headcanon. Saying that's wrong and t;hat people who disagree with your reading are making a mistake is, well, not the way you'd want to be told. You've got your views and everyone does - including BF writers, TV writers, fans. I would say though if BF got it "wrong", didn't the show on TV as well? As I really don't see your read, and maybe I miss it, over their travels together in S8 and S9. I know you cite the father-child dynamic as one you'd be against but I don't think that's ever been, or would be an issue. Clara's an assertive young woman and I think in Season 9 the theme over the year that reaches it's peak in Jenna's last ep is his "duty of care" for her. It's not fatherly, it's not amorous - but it's caring and is loving..but not in the way, say, Tennant's Doc and Rose were. He saw what she went through with Danny and realises he's enabled her wreckless self-regard by travelling with her and continuing to do so. He recognises by the end that it's become toxic and has to end. That what happened with Danny may have been "one of those things" but the reason Clara is literally "dead" on her feet is because she met him. So I don't think they're a couple, personally - or would be. Yet I don't think they're father-daughter. I think they're good friends who get each other, enjoy the other's company and enjoy the (romantic) adventuring. Untill they realise where that took them both - tragedy. What does Missy say in The Magician's Apprentice when The Doctor left her his confession dial and Clara is put out assuming he would have given it to her? Missy tells Clara that of course she cares for The Doctor and he for Missy in a totally different way that transcends his relationship with Clara "Contemplate friendship. A friendship older than your civilisation, and infinitely more complex." I think that's very telling, personally. This is all my own interpretation, of course, but I think it's supported by what we see on screen for two years quite heavily and, frankly, that's a fresher, much deeper and more interesting notion than coupling Clara and The Doctor off. I know a lot of people have issues with Hell Bent but when The Doctor finally opens up as to why he kept going for billions of years to save Clara and says "Because I had a duty of care", I find it very moving. He's the one who got her into this and even though it took that long...he's going to find a way to get her out. It's why the title works - The Doctor is "hell bent", literally - totally focused on his duty of care for his friend who he should have protected more when she started being so wreckless. I think that's terrific stuff from Moffat. I'm certainly not against romance in Doctor Who in the sexual sense and think it can be done well. I think it has been done well. I think it's been done badly. I think Chibnall more than hinted that Yaz has a thing for The Doctor as recently as the last ep on TV given Jack picked her up on it. And I'm also conscious that since I've been a fan reading fanzines in the early to mid 90s there have been people who read things into the show that are quite contrarian and against the grain. Some people think The Second Doctor and Jamie had a thing, that's a bit of fanfic slash that was posited years before the New Series was even a thing. It's not to say anyone's own headcanon can possibly be wrong. But at the same time having strong beliefs in your own interpretation doesn't make anyone disagreeing "wrong", or that they're making a mistake either, as you said. I appreciate this is the "unpopular opinions" thread but if you're posting here saying anyone who doesn't agree must be wrong, there's probably a reason why it's best suited for a thread with that title, honestly. It's one reading and one that makes you very happy to consider which is terrific. Just becomes a bit more problematic when you think anyone not sharing it is wrong and making a mistake - fans or if BF ever did get them on board and didn't write exactly the dynamic you want. I see your point but more what I meant was that a father daughter interpretation would be inaccurate to the characters. I don’t mind if they aren’t overtly romantic but just some reference to subtext. I respect your interpretation but I still stand by the fact that they are romantically attracted to each other otherwise in “Last Christmas” Clara would not have said that their was only one other man she would marry and than man was impossible and then kissed 12 on the cheek with a heart shape in the background. I am sorry if I came on too strong in my last post ( I sometimes genuinely have trouble with conveying tone in how I come across in posts) but it is very important to me that they get 12 and Clara’s dynamic right. No, no - not at all - debate is debate and always good to see where others are coming from It's the people who don't want to say "That's interesting...but how about..." that aren't worth the time. Good, friendly debate is something I really enjoy. Again, we can all see things as different and that's good - keeps things interesting. Though in the context of that Last Christmas, the man she wanted to marry who is impossible is surely supposed to be Danny? He's literally her dream man there, and being dead he's obviously "impossible" to marry. If Moffat didn't intend it to be Danny, it'd be very odd to even cast Samuel again in the role. Though clearly, like the tangerine at the end...Moffat's happy for us to have a bit of fun wondering and speculating more than usual in that episode so maybe there was an extra layer there. One of the things I like about the Moffat/Capaldi era is that things can be left a bit more meta. I think of Robin Hood telling The Doctor "I'm as real as you are.." for example. It's like Moffat is kinda challenging the audience there, saying "It's all made up anyway - just have fun", and you do that with your own reading of the era. I just would hate to think that should BF ever get them on board (or even in Short Trips or Chronicles) you end up getting more let down because of your own expectations about some very specific things. I'd be sad to think you would have such a pre-conceived notion of what should and shouldn't be in their relationship that it's hard to see the wood for the trees and feel let down. Capaldi's my favourite Doctor too - by far. He's someone I was advocating for the role in the early 2000s when the show was coming back. It was a dream for me when he was announced and an even more exciting one when he was, unlike Tennant, allowed to keep his accent in the role as a working class Glasgow boy as The Doctor? Well, I wouldn't have believed it when I got into the show in the early 90s sitting as a working class Glasgow boy myself. Yet I'm open to expanding any era, with any Doctor when it comes to licenced media - BF, books, comics...it's something that makes their world bigger even if it's not a direction I'd have thought about myself. I would never have thought the show's most serious era overall - the Third Doctor one - would end up with some of the most fun stories ever with the likes of The Scorchies on audio or Verdigris in the books. Sometimes you get things you didn't know you wanted. And that can be exciting, sometimes more so, than what you expected to get.
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Post by timegirl on May 16, 2021 3:12:50 GMT
I see your point but more what I meant was that a father daughter interpretation would be inaccurate to the characters. I don’t mind if they aren’t overtly romantic but just some reference to subtext. I respect your interpretation but I still stand by the fact that they are romantically attracted to each other otherwise in “Last Christmas” Clara would not have said that their was only one other man she would marry and than man was impossible and then kissed 12 on the cheek with a heart shape in the background. I am sorry if I came on too strong in my last post ( I sometimes genuinely have trouble with conveying tone in how I come across in posts) but it is very important to me that they get 12 and Clara’s dynamic right. No, no - not at all - debate is debate and always good to see where others are coming from It's the people who don't want to say "That's interesting...but how about..." that aren't worth the time. Good, friendly debate is something I really enjoy. Again, we can all see things as different and that's good - keeps things interesting. Though in the context of that Last Christmas, the man she wanted to marry who is impossible is surely supposed to be Danny? He's literally her dream man there, and being dead he's obviously "impossible" to marry. If Moffat didn't intend it to be Danny, it'd be very odd to even cast Samuel again in the role. Though clearly, like the tangerine at the end...Moffat's happy for us to have a bit of fun wondering and speculating more than usual in that episode so maybe there was an extra layer there. One of the things I like about the Moffat/Capaldi era is that things can be left a bit more meta. I think of Robin Hood telling The Doctor "I'm as real as you are.." for example. It's like Moffat is kinda challenging the audience there, saying "It's all made up anyway - just have fun", and you do that with your own reading of the era. I just would hate to think that should BF ever get them on board (or even in Short Trips or Chronicles) you end up getting more let down because of your own expectations about some very specific things. I'd be sad to think you would have such a pre-conceived notion of what should and shouldn't be in their relationship that it's hard to see the wood for the trees and feel let down. Capaldi's my favourite Doctor too - by far. He's someone I was advocating for the role in the early 2000s when the show was coming back. It was a dream for me when he was announced and an even more exciting one when he was, unlike Tennant, allowed to keep his accent in the role as a working class Glasgow boy as The Doctor? Well, I wouldn't have believed it when I got into the show in the early 90s sitting as a working class Glasgow boy myself. Yet I'm open to expanding any era, with any Doctor when it comes to licenced media - BF, books, comics...it's something that makes their world bigger even if it's not a direction I'd have thought about myself. I would never have thought the show's most serious era overall - the Third Doctor one - would end up with some of the most fun stories ever with the likes of The Scorchies on audio or Verdigris in the books. Sometimes you get things you didn't know you wanted. And that can be exciting, sometimes more so, than what you expected to get. I feel better now 😊 And since you are up for debate, it wasn’t Danny she was talking about in “Last Christmas” as “one other man but he was impossible” because the implication was that Clara was saying that there was one man she would marry other than Danny. The reference to the man being “impossible” is Clara’s way of saying she would love to marry 12 but it’s difficult because she is human with a limited life span and he is an immortal alien. It’s also a reference to how the Doctor referred to her as his “Impossible Girl”. So basically Clara would only ever marry Danny or 12 and you are forgetting that Clara kissed 12 on the cheek with the shape of a heart in the background😉 Well if I don’t want to be disappointed if and when they come on board at BF. I will just have to try to get hired as a writer for BF and write stories for 12 and Clara that show more of the romantic undertones. Maybe I would be able to convince more fans of their love 🤔😉
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2021 3:20:02 GMT
Particularly because of the horrible things John Barrowman and Noel Clark did and just because it makes sense for these characters I think Torchwood, both in BF and if they reappear on tv either on their own spinoff or just appearing on DW, should be retooled to star Me/Ashildr and Martha Jones as the new new heads of Torchwood. Me/Ashildr is another complex immortal character but unlike Jack, she is played by an unproblematic actress. Just add a line that it’s some time after she stopped traveling with Clara. Martha Jones is an underutilized badass character who deserves more content. Just have a line about her recent divorce to explain the absence of Micky. I think Me/Ashildr and Martha Jones would have an interesting dynamic, sort of a complicated good cop bad cop. Plus it would make sense to have a female led Torchwood to mirror Doctor Who having a female Doctor. It would probably also be hugely popular with fandom as well. They could just retcon and say that Martha married Tom Ellis's Character from Last of The Time Lords (which she was engaged to as referenced in The Doctor's Daughter) but Hell No to the idea of Ashildr coming back as she was just a bland boring character in one of Capaldis worst seasons.
Regarding the female lead Torchwood really? haven't we already got enough female lead spin offs given that the doctor who franchise already has heaps of female lead spin offs- K9 and Company, The Sarah Jane Adventures, Class and all the Big Finish Spin offs such as: Missy, UNIT, The Paternoster Gang, Class (agian), Rose Tyler Dimension Cannon, Jenny The Doctors Daughter, Lady Chrisitina, The Year of Martha Jones, The Robots, Donna Knoble Kidnapped, Charley Pollard, Bernice Summerfield, Graceless and Vienna
The ranges could be all female led and I'd be happy if they all have a reason to exist beyond "we can get that actor" and they all have unique identities. I really don't dig when I hear a Jenny story that could easily be a Vienna, or a River that you can change some names and make a River out of. Sometimes I hear stories from the expanded spinoffs that almost feel like the skeleton was written without a real idea what range it was for. That's not how commissions work, of course, but it perhaps speaks to how same-y some of the ranges are and some of the leads are too. Luckily actors like Alex Kingston or Lisa Bowerman know their characters so well that they inject character into stories that helps make them *feel* different even if the bullet points of the script aren't. It's perhaps another reason I didn't take to Nova in Eccleston's new set very well - she's another feisty inquisitive Who companion taking an awful lot in her stride. Seen dozens and dozens just like her on TV, in books, comics, audios. I feel like we could use some totally fresh companions, different to what we have already in spades. The classic Doctors moving to boxsets seems like an ideal time to do that to me. Freshen things up a bit. It's amazing how new companions can (not always but often) invigorate The Doctor and the actor playing them. Ashildir to me was a very clever, if cynical, bit of casting. Maisie was at the height of her popularity in Game Of Thrones and I don't think having her first story in a village not unlike something from GoT was a coincidence. I didn't take to her in the second story much at all and when she's at the end of the Universe, I was mostly sitting thinking "Does Steven Moffat actually know what the hybrid is himself?" so I wasn't too fussed about her there. Given she got a novel of short stories announced and released at the time, I think it's clear there were hopes she would be a much more popular character than she was, leading to spin-off media beyond that. Never really happened. I must admit, I don't miss her. I loved me some Arya Stark but it's like Maisie was on autopilot doing DW.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2021 3:20:21 GMT
I see your point but more what I meant was that a father daughter interpretation would be inaccurate to the characters. I don’t mind if they aren’t overtly romantic but just some reference to subtext. I respect your interpretation but I still stand by the fact that they are romantically attracted to each other otherwise in “Last Christmas” Clara would not have said that their was only one other man she would marry and than man was impossible and then kissed 12 on the cheek with a heart shape in the background. I am sorry if I came on too strong in my last post ( I sometimes genuinely have trouble with conveying tone in how I come across in posts) but it is very important to me that they get 12 and Clara’s dynamic right. No, no - not at all - debate is debate and always good to see where others are coming from It's the people who don't want to say "That's interesting...but how about..." that aren't worth the time. Good, friendly debate is something I really enjoy. [...] There's honestly a really interesting discussion to be had about the Doctor's perception of love over their various lives. After all, "love" can mean a great many things. That's the tricky nature of the word. In general media, the word often gets simplified down to eros and that romantic love, but there are many other kinds that have been demonstrated over the years. Many, many of the Doctor's interactions with his companions have felt familial to me. Including and outside of the traditional dynamics we associate with the word like the First Doctor's two families (Ian/Barbara/Susan/Vicki) and Thirteen's more recent fam (Ryan/Graham/Yaz). The Fifth Doctor, Peri and Erimem, for instance, feels very much like a stepfather with two younger daughters (quite a different feel to the Sixth Doctor and Peri). That's quite different to the Second Doctor and Jamie, who strike me much more as a conventional bromance. Jamie is one of those ride-or-die companions who I could see having stayed with the Doctor through his regeneration if they hadn't been forced apart. Different again with the First Doctor who, likewise, had no inclination for himself (beyond the humbling accident of an Aztec engagement), but loved Susan enough as his granddaughter that he wasn't prepared to have her sacrifice her happiness for him. He couldn't do that to her.
Different Doctors also have different inclinations and with that, for me at least, come different expectations. The Eighth Doctor, bristling with a passion for the personal qualities of life, feels much more engaged with the more romantic side of those interpersonal reactions than, say, the more cosmically-orientated Sixth Doctor would be. People in different parts of their lives have different priorities. The Doctor, I suppose, would be no different. The overriding commonality between all of them is that the Doctor is inherently a Romantic (with a capital 'R') figure. Someone who believes in dreams and marvels.
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